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Thread: HD upgrade in 7100

  1. #1
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    Got a new 68-pin 18G HD for 7100. Been hearing there are performance problems with 68-pin to 50-pin adapter. What's the buzz?

  2. #2
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    Yes, there are issues. The buzz is that any connection on the SCSI chain produces interference. The more there are, the worse you are setting yourself up. Data loss will be your main concern. I had a fewe 68-pin drives and a few 68-50 adapters that would work OK sometimes. But there was no way in hell I was going to trust any of my datd to it. So it became obvious I needed to get rid of them. Others here would say go ahead and use a high-quality adapter and see what happens. What's the drive model number?

    Personally, a best practice is to buy what will plug right into your machine.

  3. #3
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    That HD is a Seagate Baracuda 18XL Ultra SCSI 3.5LP. Tha adapter is a Belkin SCSI II/SCSI III. Any of that mak a difference? Not very interested in loosing data either way. Your rec's are appreciated.

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    Need the model number such as ST318436LW. If it is a U160 LVD drive like most of the twelve Barracuda 18XL's on the Seagate website, there are no Termination Enable (TE) jumper pins on the drive so that Belkin must be able to terminate both the high and low pins or you need an additional drive or something else to terminate the low pins with TE pins jumper installed and the Belkin then has to be able to terminate the high pins, this high/low pins thing referring to 68-pins, low being 50 of those pins, high being the remaining 18 pins.

    What else do you have on the internal SCSI? Another hard drive and a CD drive? And what is physically on the end of that SCSI chain? Hard drive?

    After all this, that Belkin has to be able to do its job reliably. I have never seen any data on how well they work or any complaints. So you might want to go for it and see how things work for awhile. Your backup choice would be the Gurus Granite Digital stuff linked off of the home page.

    Of course, the simplest and most elegant way is to get a late model 50-pin drive such as the Gurus Seagate Barracuda model numbers that end in "N". k

  5. #5
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    Kaye--
    Wow. Thanks for the info. I think I'll return the current Baracuda (with all its twists and turns that might make it work) and get the Gurus 50 pin Baracuda product. Sounds more reliable--and less hassle.
    Your help is much appreciated, Ron

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    Our pleasure Ron. The beauty of those Gurus 50-pin drives is that if you ever upgrade to a PCI machine, you can just add it to an internal SCSI bus or really make that Barracuda fly with an Initio BlueNote. Louie does this and gets 18+MB/s sustained throughput. Those two drives are Ultra narrow or Fast-20 drives. k

  7. #7
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    K--ordered a Baracuda (ST318416N) from Gurus. Should be here in a day or so. Bonzai, Ron

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    Post if you have any questions about the installation. What OS are you running? What driver, Apple, HDT, or what? What version of the driver software? k

  9. #9
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    I found your group through e-mail with a MacFixIt user. I own a Mac PowerPC
    7100/66 (not AV) and am looking forward to upgrading it with a 500 MHz G3
    Sonnet accelerator and RAM to its max of 136 MB. In addition, I'd like to
    put in a new SCSI hard drive with more storage, say ~18 GB. What kind of
    SCSI drives can I place in this computer, and will the power source and BIOS
    be overwhelmed by such a drive? Do I need to go with a 50-pin drive or will
    the new SCSI drives with 68 & 80 pins perform OK with my 50-pin hookup, and how reliable are these adapters to the 50-pin cable hookup? I have read some of the comments about their reliability or not, and agree that a 50-pin connection would do better with another 50-pin connector. Does it matter whether I go with an UltraSCSI or Ultra160 or a SCSI 2 or SCSI 3 or am I showing my ignorance yet? I usually keep up with these changes in technology, but I'm a little behind in my MacWorlds. When all is said and done, how much faster will my updated Mac be vs what I already have (Quantum 1280S hard drive; 40 MB RAM; OS 8.1; 33 MHz bus)?; ie, will I still be able to write a book chapter in between web pages appearing on my monitor screen? I am hooked up to cable modem, which has increased the speed by ~10% vs just a 56K modem via phone line. I really don't care too much about all the bells & whistles of a new Mac using OS X, for example; I just want my machine to be fast enough so that I only have to take a sip of coffee before the next web page appears on my monitor, like my brother-in-law's Dell that screams through web pages almost in the blink of an eye.

    Your help would be greatly appreciated.

    Awaiting anxiously before spending the $$$,

    rachmiel

  10. #10
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    Robert,

    I saw your post this morning then couldn't find it again until I remembered you were posting in someone else's thread.

    Some observations: the Sonnet Fortissimo PDS slot G3 500/200/1MB will run 495/198/1MB in your 7100/66, just so you know. Further, you need to check your ram for speed. 60ns is good, 70 or 80ns may cause problems with such a fast processor. Every single NuBus/G3 machine I have has 60ns and I have no problems. So YMMV with slower.

    The power supply on the 7100 series:
    Q650-PPC7100 Power Supply
    These were used in the Q650 and 7100 Machines. A bit more powerful than the ones used in the Q700, CI, CX series.
    Power Ratings are:
    -5V 1mA
    +5V 15A
    -12V 0.6A
    +12V 2.5A.
    DC power: 112 or 113 watts max (depending on where you read about it)

    I have seen a number of people with 7100s that had problems with very fast G3 cards that wouldn't boot because the power supply was operating on the edge. The reason that I'm pretty sure it was the PS is that I helped someone with two 7100s, one that would boot, one that would not. Checking the +5V during boot, when the G3 card extension (Crescendo) would come up during startup the voltage would sag to 3.7 volts...a big no-no for SCSI which likes 4.2 to 5 volts DC. His other 7100 would sag to about 4.2V and continue the startup. But he also had NuBus cards.

    I would say that most 7100s, particularly those with one or less NuBus cards, would be fine. Just warning you at the beginning here. I have no idea how much this new Fortissimo G3 draws.

    Next the HD: I think your best bet is one of the Gurus Barracudas here http://www.macgurus.com/shoppingcart...dseagates.html and look at the ST318416N 18GB 2048k 5.8ms 7200rpm Narrow. It is a 50-pin Ultra narrow FAST-20 drive capable of up to 20MB/s but limited to 10MB/s by your internal Fast SCSI-2. A 68-pin drive up to U160 LVD is possible, but to do that correctly involves an expensive converter/terminator, SCSI cable, etc. The Barracuda is plug-n-play.

    Your cable modem, which has increased the speed by ~10% vs just a 56K modem, really mean that? My cheapest DSL, which is typically much slower than cable, is about 10x faster than my 56k modem.

    Though the G3-500 will seriously accelerate everything, video on a NuBus machine is a weak point. Are you running one of the HPV cards, NuBus card, or built-in? k

  11. #11
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    robert, if you really want a machine that will rip thru web pages quickly, an iMac is tough to beat. Remember that a Mac is a symphony of several subsystems, and even an iMac's video, IDE drive, memory and processor are much faster than what you have in your 7100. When you consider the cost of the Sonnet upgrade, memory, and drive, you are getting perilously close to iMac terrain. As k points out, the options for accelerated video are very limited on the 7100, so one option you should be considering at this point is replacement rather than upgrade.


  12. #12
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    See revised post from later today (3/3/01 @ 1155).

    [This message has been edited by rachmiel (edited 06 March 2001).]

  13. #13
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    kay & magician,

    Thank you for your replies. They were very helpful. It's nice to communicate with well informed folks.

    I just learned of the Fortissimo Sonnet G3/NuBus accelerator that doubles the native bus speed on my Mac 7100/66, which would be a tremendous speed advantage. I would also agree that the Barracuda HD would be a good substitute, too, as a plut-&-play device. I can buy 60-ns SIMMS, although I understand that whatever SIMMS are out there now is all you get because they're not made anymore, to my understanding.

    Kaye, as far as video capability of my machine, whatever came native on my PowerPC 7100 is what's there. It is not an AV machine and I haven't placed any NuBus cards in it myself. How limited, therefore, will this machine be in the video realm; ie, speed, capabilities, etc.? I really will not be doing much video work other than retrieving any video I might get by e-mail from friends, family, etc. I'm not going to have this machine burn CDs or DVDs.

    My mindset on the 7100 is to upgrade it to prolong its useful life and to speed it up. I won't expect it to do much more than it does for me now, except to go faster on the web. Kaye, believe it or not, going from a 56K v.90 modem to cable modem did not increase speed on the web by > ~10%. Could it be my ISP, AOL? My 7100 actually used to be a Mac IIVX, but the university where I used to teach upgraded it to a PowerPC 7100 (new motherboard, processor, even cabinet) and picked up the tab for it. This upgrade's on me, however. If I were to buy a new machine, I would probably go full guns and get the new Mac G4 733MHz so that it would be awhile before that, too, becomes hopelessly obsolete in the not-so-distant future. Any thoughts on these rationales?

    Again, thanks for your help.

    Robert, aka rachmiel

  14. #14
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    Robert,

    Given what you say, I would go for the Gurus Crescendo G3 NuBus 7100/8100 500MHz/1MB L2 @ 2.5:1 $489.99 ea located here http://www.macgurus.com/shoppingcart...gi?sonnet.html

    NOTE: An adapter is required to use either the HPV (High-Performance Video) or AV card included with the 7100 and 8100. In the 7100, the adapter extends into the middle NuBus slot--the first NuBus slot cannot be used. The adapter is Crescendo G3 AV/Video Adapter for Power Mac 7100 & 8100 $98.99 ea.

    The above adapter is only required if you presently have an HPV card in your 7100. To determine that, go here http://www.macgurus.com/shoppingcart...mbppc7100.html and look at the diagram. Note that at the bottom of the diagram it shows PDS and points to a slot which is the PDS slot. Since your 7100 is a IIVX upgrade, there are three possibilities for this slot.

    1. Nothing at all in the slot.
    2. A very small (in height, about 1") card there called a PDS Terminator.
    3. An HPV or AV card in the slot, much larger, maybe 4" tall.

    Tell me what is in the slot or if it is empty. If #3 is the answer, is that where you have your monitor plugged in? Even if the card is there, your monitor may be plugged into the port on the left side of the diagram labeled AV Display Connector, sometimes called HDI-45 Video, sometimes called DRAM Video Monitor Port. Can't recall for sure which semantics is technically correct on the 7100.

    Anyway, answer the questions, and, if you have a card similar to #3 above but your monitor is connected to the other port, move it to the #3 card, and you will observe an immediate speed boost. You may need a video adapter to do this, depending on your monitor. But that alone would be worthwhile for video. k

  15. #15
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    Your cable modem, go here http://www.computingcentral.com/default.asp and under Features (lower right side), run the Bandwidth Speed Test. Let it go thru the test without interruption. Post results. In a box it will show -

    Your line speed:
    346.6 Kbps
    42.5 K bytes/sec

    That is what I just got for scores with the slowest and cheapest DSL.

    Another test here http://speedtest.mybc.com/ and it shows some reasons why these tests yield variable results. I selected 10meg.test. You may want to try the 1meg.test.

    My results:
    Starting download test
    Http request: http://speedtest.mybc.com/10meg.test
    Http connection opened in 1 milliseconds
    Test performed in 257205 milliseconds
    Total bytes downloaded: 10485760 bytes
    Throughput: 0.31103596 Mbps

    k

  16. #16
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    kaye,

    Got on-line @ ~11:45PM tonight (Fri.) & got a line speed of 57 Kbps and 7 Kbytes/sec. Pretty slow. Keep in mind that it was a weekend night & I am using AOL through this cable modem.

    I have the computer opened and can answer your questions below re its guts:

    The NuBus slots B, C, & D are all empty. The PDS slot, which is labeled "VDS" on my motherboard, does have a card in place which is 4" high and 7 3/4" long. I believe this is probably an HPV card. It has several small chips on it, and 2 large chips, one labeled "Bt9055 RAMDAC 100" and the other labeled "VLSI." They are both stamped as Apple chips. This card also has 4 empty slots where, I presume, 4 more VRAM SIMMs would go, each being 256K. The monitor is plugged into this card location. Next to the VDS (or PDS) is a ROM SIMM, and next to that is an empty cache SIMM slot.

    Questions:

    1. Should I get a cache SIMM and more VRAM SIMMs while they are still out there?
    2. Should I retest my bandwidth speed late some weeknight to get a more realistic result?
    3. Will I need the HPV/AV video adapter for the Crescendo NuBus accelerator c/ Fortissimo? I take the answer to be "yes."

    With your help to answer these questions and about more VRAM and cache SIMMs, I think I'd be ready to make a decision about doing the major upgrade.

    Robert

  17. #17
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    Robert,

    That is incredibly slow for a cable modem. Got to be something wrong with the software or AOL. I'm at a loss. Which Mac AOL version? I think latest and greatest has been panned as latest and worst.

    Go here http://www.macgurus.com/shoppingcart...mbpmvc2mb.html and it describes the 7100 HPV card. You need to fill all four of those slots with 256KB VRAM SIMMs to get to 2MB total (1MB soldered to the card).

    To be sure that you have the 7100 HPV 2MB card because the 8100 HPV 4MB card takes different SIMMs, 512KB VRAM SIMMs:

    Note: Apple service documention comments that 2MB and 4MB Video Cards can be distinguished by their part numbers (661-1748 & 661-1027, respectively) and by the color of their silkscreening. The 2MB card is silkscreened in yellow, and the 4MB card in white. The 2MB card additionally includes the numbers "128x8" in the lower lefthand corner of the card.

    Yes, you need the pass-thru adapter.

    "1. Should I get a cache SIMM..." No, the L2 cache card is not compatible with the Sonnet G3 card. It must be removed. So no point in getting an L2 cache card. But not having an L2 cache card is greatly slowing your computer down now. The 256KB L2 cache was flakey, the 512KB and 1MB/1024KB cards much more stable.

    Think I have answered all. k

  18. #18
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    k,
    Thanks for the quick reply. Thanks to your help, we're almost home free on the info I need gathered. I am running MacOS 8.1, and the AOL version for Mac is v5.0. I believe my VRAM card is a 2 MB one: it is yellow silk-screened and it has "VRAM 128K X 8" embossed on it. I did not see the part #661-1748 anywhere on the card, but did see the # 820-0522-A, if that means anything.
    The last question is, since I don't have an L2 cache card and won't be able to use one with the Sonnet G3 accelerator card, will the accelerator card take care of this speed loss? ie, will lacking the L2 cache card make much difference once the G3 card is inserted?

    Robert

  19. #19
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    Robert,

    "The last question is, since I don't have an L2 cache card and won't be able to use one with the Sonnet G3 accelerator card, will the accelerator card take care of this speed loss? ie, will lacking the L2 cache card make much difference once the G3 card is inserted?"

    No difference at all. The G3/G4 does not make use of that L2 cache card even if you leave it in your 7100. Software is written for these G3/G4 upgrades, the Crescendo extension, to disable the existing L2. My own personal experience, a Sonnet PDS slot G3-400/200/1MB card in a NuBus Power 120, the box would not boot with the old L2 card installed. Removing the L2, everything worked. So even though the software init is written to disable the old L2 card, better to just remove it.

    Technically, if memory serves, the G3/G4 with its own cache, for instance my Sonnet G3-400/200/1MB has 1MB running at 200MHz, becomes the new L2 cache, and any L2 cache cards still installed become L3 cache, but disabled. To confuse this more, some PCI G3/G4 upgrade card software allows this L3 cache (formerly L2 cache) if still installed AND equal or greater in size than the G3/G4 card's new L2 cache to remain optionally useable. I've never messed with that. k

  20. #20
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    I too think you have a 7100 HPV 2MB card with 1MB VRAM soldered to the card. The other numbers, I don't know. BTW, you must fully populate it to 2MB. If you just install two 256KB VRAM SIMMs, bringing your total to 1.5MB, the computer will still only recognize 1MB. So go all the way to four 256KB VRAM SIMMs, at least that is my recollection. k

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