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Thread: 8100 SCSI Blues

  1. #1
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    I recently bought an 8100 that has made my nerves go bad. The guy that
    > sold to me was dishonest. There were major problems that have made it
    > lemon status. First, I got numerous messages about bus and address error
    > when I tried to boot upwith either an internal or external drive. I
    > stripped the drive connections down and changed the L2 cache, and I was
    > able to boot and leave the computer on for hours. I checked the memory
    > since I was loosing memory, but now the memory checked out even with EDO
    > simms. I Have 200 mb ram. I couldn't get my external drive to boot up
    > properly, so I tried reinstalling OS 9, but the message about tomes
    > couldn't read kept happening and I tried to install OS 8.5 and a partial
    > installtion occurred. I took the drive off and attached to my 6100 and
    > the drive would not even show up on the desktop. I had to put the external
    drive back on the 8100 and erase everything and initialize only and reattach on
    the 6100 to get OS 9 to install. What is going wrong?
    > Help!!!
    >
    > Note: The external drive is a new 9 gig Quantum 68 pin with termainted
    > 50 pin connector that I used before with no problems
    >
    I have a 6100 and 8100, shouldn't any hard drive (internal/external) work on either computer?

    How would I know if the CDrom is bad on my 8100?

    Can you explain which drives on the 8100 should attach to the top SCSI and which should attach to the bottom SCSI?
    Does it matter? Or if I do it incorrectly will it cause bus/address errors?

    Please help me.......

  2. #2
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    And the Guru signal zigzags wildly accross the California night skies in desperate hopes that SuperK the NuBusMan will heed the desperate plea for help

    But, seriously, angela, there are folks here with extensive 8100 experience who can help. Nobody could go back through your post and be able to figure out your problem in a nutshell. You will need to start simple and build up again. It definitely matters which (upper or lower) internal SCSI connector you use when you have termination and SCSI ID issues to consider.

    To start: describe all your SCSI devices; Boot off the OS 9 CD-ROM and run Apple System Profiler. Paste in a message any parts that look helpful like, for example, how much RAM is listed.

    Regards

  3. #3
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    Okay, I have solved some major issues. A friend referred me to your site last night and sent a diagram about the SCSI connectors on the 8100 and indicated that it might be a good idea to leave the CDrom on the top only and put all other drives on the bottom SCSI. This actually was an excellent idea. I tried it and hopefully I won't experience anymore freezing. I will leave the machine on for a couple of hours. The only concern is that the CDrom is not damaged since it would not read the OS 9 disc for installation last night. I put system software on external drive with my 6100 and reattached with no errors. I will assume that since the L2 cache card has been replaced that I wont get anymore errors, but only time will tell. We all know that reformatting the drive after major changes also helps get some bugs out.

    Apple System Profile
    8100/100
    200 mb ram

    Bus 0 ID2
    internal drive 160mb with OS 9 basic

    Bus 1 ID6
    external drive 9 gig with OS 9 full install
    same bus ID3
    internal Apple 300 Plus CDrom

    :Question: How can I make find out if the CDrom is damaged or not reading? What are indicators that you have a lemon CDrom? Is a 4x too slow to install OS
    9? Thanks.

  4. #4
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    Angela,

    Your friend had a good idea about separating the CD-ROM drive to the upper SCSI connector and keeping the hard drive on the lower internal connector. Also the 256KB L2 cache card has been notoriously flakey. Not so the 512KB and 1024KB/1MB models.

    There should be no problem with a 4x CD-ROM drive installing OS9. What I discovered with an OS9.0.4 CD is that my late model 52x CD-ROM drive would not complete the install, just like your case something about Tome as I recall, tried several times. So I just did a custom install doing the major pieces one at a time and when each install would complete I would tell it to do another install (not Quit), again custom install the next major piece, etc., until done. After I posted this problem on the Gurus forum, others chimed in that they had similar problems with the OS9.0.4 CD. k

  5. #5
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    one thing to remember, Angela, is that you have the CD-ROM alone internally on the external bus, which is fine, but if it is not terminated with a jumper on the TE pins, then you have an unterminated bus, and that could explain why the CD-ROM is flaky.

    the way this works is, you have your CD-ROM installed inside the machine, but it is attached to an internal connector on the logic board which provides access to the external SCSI bus. Again, nothing wrong with this as long as the CD-ROM is terminated. The logic board, meaning the SCSI host, is in the middle of the bus at ID7, and it will automatically disable termination on itself by sensing the presence of connectors on the internal connector and the external connector leading to your external drive.

    your external drive, since it is the only external device on that bus, must also have termination enabled.

    let us know how you have these devices configured. The rule of SCSI that applies here is that termination must be enabled at each physical end of the bus.

  6. #6
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    Hello,

    Thanks for all your replies. For some strange reason, drive is not terminated. I looked at the back of the drive and there is nothing on the 3 sets of pins. What do I need to do? Can I use the jumper pins that I use on the hard drives?

    I would hate to do partial installs OS 9 because of a flaky CD drive. Maybe a jumper is all it needs to correct the problem.

    As for the external drive, it has active termination inside the Apple case. I don't not if the scsi chain is terminated at the end or what is the last item on the chain. Please help... Thanks

    bus id
    0 2 internal drive

    1 3 cdrom
    1 6 external drive w/active termination

  7. #7
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    I just read this article about connecting SCSI devices on the apple site http://til.info.apple.com/techinfo.nsf/artnum/n9387

    I just realized that I need to make a clearer diagram of the pin configuration of the back of the 300plus so that it can be conluded if the drive actually has be terminated.

    3 black pins cover parity ID 0-2, three empty sets of pins, black plug over term power

    Is this set up correctly?

  8. #8
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    angela

    if you look at the top of the CD-ROM, you will probably see a diagram showing the purpose of all the pins on the rear. It is possible that your CD-ROM lacks TE pins, and cannot be terminated using a jumper. Many old Apple CD-ROM, if not most of them, fall into this category.

    this is easily resolved by moving your CD-ROM to the other bus, the same one with your internal drive. That drive should be addressed to ID0, done by pulling all address pins. You can use the jumper you pull from the drive to ensure that it has a jumper on its TE pins. You then make sure that you attach it to the last connector on the internal SCSI cable. Attach your CD-ROM, at ID3, to one of the connectors in the middle, between the drive at the end and the logic board at the other end.

  9. #9
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    Magician,

    RE: Apple 300 Plus CD

    I did look at the back at the pins next the audio cable. What are TE pins? Are they black pins? If so, I have 3 pins on id 0,1,2 and then on term power. Is this drive too old to be terminated? Is it terminated with this pin setting? Do I need to rearrange the pins?

    I still have my SCSI cable in place. This cable allows for 4 devices before attaching to the bottom of the board. I got totally lost with your second paragraph since I can only use the top connector on the ribbon. Maybe some of the problems started with the non apple SCSI ribbon, I will replace once I can locate one. The SCSI ribbon on the top is an Apple cable. But I need clarification, on where the TE pins go when the driveis attached to the bottom SCSI.

    Since I should be able to use the drive top or bottom, how many jumper pins are supposed to be attached to the CDrom on bus 1 and on bus 0?

    Thanks.

    [This message has been edited by angela (edited 07 January 2001).]

  10. #10
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    Hey Angela,

    Glad to see you are getting the right stuff here. Part of the confusion is terminology.
    The "black pins" that I think you are referring to are "jumpers" or "jumper blocks". These each connect an upper and a lower "pin" on the two horizontal rows of "pins"(thin metal thingies).
    The upper and lower TE pins should be "jumpered"(connected by a black thingie). The SCSI ID "0"pins and the SCSI ID "1"pins should each be jumpered (two jumpers in place) to set SCSI ID#3.

    Regards

  11. #11
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    Macmikester,

    I am really trying hard at this, but SCSI I will never understand. I see 7 rows of pins. I skip the first pin and put the jumper at the 2 and 3 (0,1) pins, horizontally on the top and bottom row. I removed the other jumpers. Only 2 pins only? Well, here comes the freezing... Maybe it would work correctly if I get the Apple SCSI ribbon. What do I do with the other jumpers? Don't need them? Clueless at this point... Any suggestions? Okay, I will try it again.

    [This message has been edited by angela (edited 07 January 2001).]

    [This message has been edited by angela (edited 07 January 2001).]

  12. #12
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    angela, if you don't see a set of pins marked TE (for termination enable) on the rear of the CD-ROM, then the CD-ROM MUST be in the middle of the bus, with a drive beyond it on the cable. The drive MUST have a jumper on its own TE pins.

  13. #13
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    No TE enable, closest thing term power at the end. Got to try somehting else since the screen wont move, but the cursor is free.

  14. #14
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    Hey Angela,

    The problem is part terminology and partly that we are not familiair with that old CD-ROM so we are depending on your description of the pin configuration and labels. As I would put it, you have 2 rows of seven pins (or seven pairs of pins), not 7 rows of two pins. If you understand that. then the jumpers should connect the pair of pins across two rows (they will be perpendicular to the long rows of seven pins, NOT connecting two pins in the same row.

    Put a jumper on the termination power pins and on the SCSI ID pins as mentioned before. Try the CD.

    Two possibilities exist: either your pins labelled 'termination power' are the proper ones to enable termination and all will be well.........OR........those pins set the drive to supply termination power to the bus and the drive CANNOT itself be terminated because no other pins labelled 'Termination Enable' are present. Some old CD-ROMs had resistor packs instead of jumpered pins to set termination (does your drive have any blocky-looking plugs stuck in it at the top or bottom near the back of the drive?).

    If your CD-ROM drive cannot be terminated, you MUST put it on a connector on the same ribbon as you internal hard drive. The TERMINATED hard drive would be in the last physical connector of the ribbon and the CD-ROM would be on a connector (any connector) between the motherboard and th hard drive.

    Bottom line: it is quite likely that your CD-ROM is just fine, it just needs to be configured properly. Check that you have the SCSI ID set right by using System Profiler.

    Regards

  15. #15
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    Thanks to Kaye, Macmikester and Magician,

    No matter what I do to configure that old CD, some message always appears. At this point, I could cry. The 8100 has killed my 12X CD that I borrowed from my 6100. The 12x installed OS and then I tried to put it back when it now is non-functional. The 8100 SUCKS!!! I hate this one--unfortunately I was sold a lemon!!!! I wish someone would buy it from me--it has caused so much grief in the first month of ownership. The last straw was when my good CD died. An evil demon is in this computer--it needs to go to the graveyard. You are used to more modern Mac equipment and if a miracle doesn't happen I am going to the PC world. Maybe another motherboard will cure all the ills. I just replaced the L2 cache. Sick of SCSI crapp!!! Until then, I will continue to love my 6100!!! I am sad without my CDrom. It seems like you fix one problem, and then creeps in another one. I would just be happy to find out if my 12X will ever work again. Thanks again guys--you all tried to fix
    my problems, but I just need to retire this 8100.


    [This message has been edited by angela (edited 07 January 2001).]

  16. #16
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    Angela,

    I haven't posted here yet in response to your problems with your 8100, mostly because the other guys here have been giving very solid advice and I haven't had anything different to say, but I do think I speak for everyone here when I say, don't give up completely and go to the PC World. I love my early NuBus Macs, just like you love your 6100. They're good machines, in many ways better than some others that came later. It may be true that there is something seriously wrong with your 8100, but I'm hoping it's not yet at the point where nothing can be done about it.

    At this point, it sounds to me like you've reached that level of frustration that we've all gone through at one point or another, and I do know that when that time comes, the best thing you can do is put the whole project aside for a little while. Walk away, leave it alone, get it out of your head for awhile. When you can come back to it you'll have a fresh perspective that might help. In the meantime, maybe we can look at what's going on and come up with something.

    When you're ready, check back in here.

  17. #17
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    Fletcherism,

    This has been a frustrating experience for me and my friends and now I bring it to macgurus as well. I don't want to leave my Mac world but today probably took my by surprise with nothign but bad luck. I am a lover of tinkering and enjoy it very much, but I have kept the cover off the 8100 for over a month. A PC man sold me this nothing but problems 8100 at a Mac garage sale. He promised me a bezel and when I called him about it, he scared me when I called him, he replied that I was bothering him to email him with the request. So, I just went and bought one. Then I noticed that I was having serious booting issues, I took the board down to attempt to analyze since 32 mb memory was not showing up. Well, turns out that the L2 cache was bad. I am stillnot convinced that something else is wrong with the board since my CDrom would not load OS. I made a bad judgement in borrowing the 12X to test in the 8100, well it got fried. I was terrorized and almost in tears. I would have preferred the 4x to be non-functional. Well, I believe in trying to regroup quickly, so I took the 4X and put it back in the 6100. The Adaptec SCSI probe said that the drive was unmountable. So, I had to get the latest driver off the Apple site since it was not responding to the driver included in OS 9. I feel somewhat better since I can at least play my music which keeps me calm. I have always trusted Apple products until the 8100 incident. My gut reaction still tells me that the motherboard is a demon. Surely the drives boot and all the memory shows up, somehow this is not convincing enough. I still got errors about a drive that is perfectly in mint condition and the only way I got software to install was to delete everything when all Iwanted to do is reinstall. Something on th board is telling the board is making the CDrom incapable of a simple install. I dont have the funds to get a motherboard or another CD. Last year, a wonderful tech buddy gave me my 12X which was a gift from heaven. He has been a saving grace for me and has kept my spirits up and shared many moments when my SCSI stuff went off the deep end. I jus hope that other people have learned something from this posting as I have learned. SCSI is an interesting beast, but I think my analysis is that it is as good as the motherboard. My theory is based on the fact that I do have a great motherboard in the 6100 which runs flawlessly. I had planned to put a zip in the 8100 and bought an install kit, but I will never do this with what has transpired lately. I admit I am a little sore about the 12x getting fried. But I will survive... I have a tough decision to make whether to keep or toss the 8100. I wish it were a simple decision to just put it aside and work on it later. Something needs replaced. Motherboard, huh? Any suggestions? I am open. Thanks.

  18. #18
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    Angela,

    Tell ya what- e-mail me at argonavis@mac.com. I might be able to help you out with this 8100. By all means don't toss it.

    General disclaimer though: I'm not a MacGuru and I'm not officially associated with them. I'm not doing anything in their name or on their behalf. I'm just trying to help you out personally, as a fellow Mac-ophile.

    Fletch

  19. #19
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    Fletcherism,

    Thanks!!!! I look forward to your response. Have a great day!!! I wont toss the 8100. Perhaps its hope for it yet.

    [This message has been edited by angela (edited 08 January 2001).]

  20. #20
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    you go, Fletch.


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