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Thread: Cuda

  1. #61
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    The 8500 will not read a drive larger than 120GB unless connected to a PCI Card Controller for that type of SCSI. If putting a PCI Card in I think you can then use SATA drives as they are faster, cheaper, larger just better.

    I'd worry more about getting your computer into bootable shape before adding new hardware. Your problems can be as simple as a wrong jumper setting on the drive you have.

    Just putting different drives into the computer a hoping won't fix it. - do that after the computer is stable and running.

    I agree with Damien the first link wrong drive for your SCSI ribbon and larger than 120GB - it can read the extra space.

    The second link at first looks like the right hard drive. You'll still need to set SCSI ID and termination on that drive.

    I'm want you to try and use your 2GB drive and we'll make sure the SCSI ID and termination are properly set. Then we learn something and can go from there.

  2. #62
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    I'm want you to try and use your 2GB drive
    How do I do that when it does not even show up on the desktop ?
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  3. #63
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    The Disk Utility program will hopefully see it. If you will boot to your CD/DVD install disk the Disk Utility program will be on the installer CD. From there you can run some repair functions, erase, reinstall the OS or see if it mounted, how the 2GB Drive is formatted.

    We need to verify the 2GB drive is dead or just configured wrong and yes you'll need a new SCSI hard drive if it's bad. Why do you think it's bad? When did it disappear from your desktop? After or before you put the WD 40GB drive in the computer? Did the HD make grinding noise, did your computer start acting funny, what did the drive or computer do to make you think it's bad? I've had many hard drives not show up on my desktop before... there are a reasons a few things can cause that and a I think there is a setting "to hide other devices from Desktop".

    Did you use the 2GB hard drive ever? for what? how long? Were you the original owner? Are you sure there is not a PCI Card that has a ribbon on it that is connected to the WD 40 GB HD because I honestly can't see how your IDE/ATA drive is working from everything you've said -- it should not work in an 8500 with out a controller. My thought is someone used an adapter on the WD 40GB Drive to make it fit your wire or ribbon... and thats created conflicts and now the 2GB SCSI won't show.

    How long did you run the WD 40GB and the 2GB drives together? Which one was the boot drive? Did they both have an OS and did you use them both before the 2GB die?

  4. #64
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    The Disk Utility program will hopefully see it. If you will boot to your CD/DVD install disk the Disk Utility program will be on the installer CD. From there you can run some repair functions, erase, reinstall the OS or see if it mounted, how the 2GB Drive is formatted.
    OS 9 has no Disk Utility.

    You will recall that the 8500 was built way way before Mac OS X or Mac OS X machines were built.

    When OS X and machines built to run OS X Apple claimed you need a Power Mac with a factory installed G3 or faster processor.

    The Power Mac 7300,7500,7600,8500,8600,9500,9600 were considered by Apple to be unsupported Macs.

    However someone figured out that although you had one of the officially unsupported Macs you could install Mac OS X with the help of a simple utility called XPostfacto sold by Macsales. Sonnet Technologies had a PCIX installer similar to XPostfacto but with the benefit of Sonnet tech support.

    When the 8500 was built it did not have USB or FireWire cards. These were installed in my 8500 because it could run OS X and OS X supported usb and firewire.


    Did you use the 2GB hard drive ever? for what? how long? Were you the original owner? Are you sure there is not a PCI Card that has a ribbon on it that is connected to the WD 40 GB HD because I honestly can't see how your IDE/ATA drive is working from everything you've said -- it should not work in an 8500 with out a controller. My thought is someone used an adapter on the WD 40GB Drive to make it fit your wire or ribbon... and thats created conflicts and now the 2GB SCSI won't show.
    I purchased the 8500 and the matching AV monitor brand new when they first became available in Canada.

    The original 2 GB hard drive was used for years gradually working up the OS ladder from 8 to 9.

    The WD 40 GB hard drive was added when I installed OS X Tiger.

    With the two hard drives I could switch from OS 9 ( on the 2 GB HD ) to OS X ( on the 40 GB HD ). I used both drives for years with no problems.

    Then with no warning when I booted up there was no desktop.

    Tried startup using all the different ways we all know about but still no desktop.

    When I used the emergency apple disk tool startup from a floppy there was a desk top with only the 40 GB hard drive and the floppy drive showing. Trying to open the 40 GB hard drive gives you message " where did my files go ".

    Tried the OS 8 and OS 9 install CD but for some reason the CD did not mount them.

    At this time i am hunting through my collection of OS 8 and OS 9 utility disks looking for my copies of Apple Personal Diagnostics disk, Apple MacTest Pro, TechToolPro 2.5, and Piece of Mind disk.
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  5. #65
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    OS 9 has no Disk Utility.
    I think it's called Disk first Aid - I don't have an OS 9 machine here.

    I rebuilt several vintage machines. Like I said it's tough to remember back every detail but I do know and understand what and how to proceed to get a machine up and running.

    First rule, get the machine to the most basic or back to stock if need and be sure it's stable. Then proceed. OK, Yes I'm familiar with xpostfacto and getting OSX to a drive. I'm just trying to get any little part of your computer stable so we have a place to start from and go from there. We need to deal with the first problems -- you can't hook it all together and assume/hope it works... it's going to be step by step now.

    When the 8500 was built it did not have USB or FireWire cards. These were installed in my 8500 because it could run OS X and OS X supported usb and firewire.
    So you do have a PCI Card installed... this info is important to help troubleshoot issues. A FW/USB.

    So have you rebuilt your desktop?
    You did reset the CUDA - Right? Are you running stock processor or the G4 upgrade?
    I'm not sure what drives are connected to what and where.

    I'd say do an open firmware but not knowing whats going on exactly might make more headaches.

    What drive or disk or what or how you are booting the computer now? - a cd, a HD, the floppy.

    I'm becoming lost. Answers...

  6. #66
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    I think it's called Disk first Aid

    When I start up there is no desktop only the typical ? looking for a hard drive to start up from.

    At this point I have to pop in Apple's Emergency Floppy ( that came with the computer ). Now it starts up with a desktop showing hard drives it has found. Typical Mac startup, right ? It sees only what it knows is there. So it sees the floppy as the first hard drive and then 40 GB hard drive. NO 2 GB hard drive.

    When I launch Disk First Aid it can scan the 40 GB hard drive and verify it saying no problems. Selecting "repair" it goes thru and finds nothing to repair.

    So you do have a PCI Card installed... this info is important to help troubleshoot issues. A FW/USB.

    Even I don't know. What does it look like and where would I find it ?
    The acronym PCI is ????


    So have you rebuilt your desktop?
    You did reset the CUDA - Right? Are you running stock processor or the G4 upgrade?
    I'm not sure what drives are connected to what and where.


    Can't rebuild the desktop since the emergency floppy has very limited capabilities crammed into 1.4 MB.

    Yes I did reset the CUDA by pressing down on the CUDA switch.

    At the moment the G4 upgrade processor card is plugged in.

    The drives plugged in are ( looking from top down ) CD RW burner, Floppy drive, 40 GB drive, Apple's 2 GB drive.

    What drive or disk or what or how you are booting the computer now? - a cd, a HD, the floppy.


    I have to boot from Apple's Emergency startup floppy as noted above.

    A quick question:

    Can I just unplug the power cable from the Apple 2 GB hard drive ?
    Or, must the SCSI DATA cable also be unplugged ?
    It seems to me that unplugging only the power cable is fine. Surely the SCSI DATA cables are not daisy chained.
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  7. #67
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    Can I just unplug the power cable from the Apple 2 GB hard drive ?
    Or, must the SCSI DATA cable also be unplugged ?
    It seems to me that unplugging only the power cable is fine. Surely the SCSI DATA cables are not daisy chained.
    My first thought is yes, but a few years back I had a similar situation and only unplugged the power and I swear I was getting data off that said drive so I am not sure.

    Assume yes until we here otherwise.

    It seems to me that unplugging only the power cable is fine. Surely the SCSI DATA cables are not daisy chained.
    If you mean multiple drives on one ribbon or SCSI bus yes you can and it's done often.

    PCI card
    Web definitions...
    Conventional PCI, "Peripheral Component Interconnect." often shortened to just PCI, is a local computer bus for attaching hardware devices in a computer. The PCI bus supports the functions found on a processor bus, but in a standardized format that is independent of any particular processor. ...
    Your 8500 has 3 PCI Slots. Right by the CUDA button. You'd have or need a graphics card in one of them. If you have FW then you must have another with FW and maybe a USB combo. Depending on how your 40GB Drive is setup it maybe or might be connected to a PCI Card.

    Other than you can't see the 2GB HD - What else has it done? Can you hear it? Any metal on metal or grinding, clicking sounds louder that normal.

    And you say you can't start or boot up with a cd/dvd disk - right? When you get the "flashing ?" can you get a CD/DVD into it then?

    At the moment the G4 upgrade processor card is plugged in.
    Did you have to reinstall anything after using the CUDA to get the G4 to work right? How is it booting the g4 if you wiped the firmware patch out? Or did you reinstall it?
    --------
    It's to early to think good... I'm still confused as to what hardware you have, whats connected and how or to what... I just need to reread this thread and start over. I'm lost.

  8. #68
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    I will keep asking the same question:

    What is connected to what?

    If you cannot trace the data wires from drives to their source, and note which drives are on/sharing what source, there is no way to know what you have and all this is guess work.
    molṑn labe'
    "I am a mortal enemy to arbitrary government and unlimited power. I am naturally very jealous for the rights and liberties of my country, and the least encroachment of those invaluable privileges is apt to make my blood boil."
--Ben Franklin

  9. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by ricks View Post
    I will keep asking the same question:

    What is connected to what?

    If you cannot trace the data wires from drives to their source, and note which drives are on/sharing what source, there is no way to know what you have and all this is guess work.
    I only pretend to understand what goes on inside a computer.

    The extent of my ability working inside a computer is replacing batteries, adding ram, processor cards (Sonnet G4 card), USB/Firewire card or the audiophile audio/midi card. In other words i can only remove and replace if provided with decent instructions/pictures.

    When it comes to tracing the data wires i see that there are separate ribbons going to each of those 4 drives (CD burner/floppy/40 GB drive/apple 2 GB). And I'm guessing they come from/to/thru the Sonnet processor or the logic board.

    The only modification as such to this computer was adding a Sonnet G4 card and a 40 GB hard drive.

    I'm sure the guy that added the 40 GB hard drive followed the rules of installing a SCSI device.
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  10. #70
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    Other than you can't see the 2GB HD - What else has it done? Can you hear it? Any metal on metal or grinding, clicking sounds louder that normal.
    There was no pre-warning, there is no metal, grinding or clicking sounds.

    I simply turned it on one day and had no desktop nothing.

    As i note I have to use the Emergency floppy startup and Disk First Aid on the floppy can't see it. So there we have it: MR MAGOO and I and Disk First Aid can't see it. Is Disk First Aid lying ?

    And you say you can't start or boot up with a cd/dvd disk - right? When you get the "flashing ?" can you get a CD/DVD into it then?
    The CD burner ( it's not a CD/DVD burner ) has a button on the front which allows me to open/close the tray.

    I can open the tray and pop in a System installer CD and do a restart holding down the "C" key for at least 24 hours and it will not catch. At first there is a flash of lights from the LCD on the front of the CD burner and that's it.


    Did you have to reinstall anything after using the CUDA to get the G4 to work right? How is it booting the g4 if you wiped the firmware patch out? Or did you reinstall it?
    I pressed down on the CUDA switch and put back the top housing and screwed in the four screws at the back end of the computer, plugged in the power, hit startup power key on the apple keyboard and it startsup with no desktop.

    I have even tried pressing the power button at the front of the computer with the very same results.

    Incidentally, I did not reinstall anything after pressing the CUDA button.

    Thanks for hanging in and all your efforts to help me.

    I may just give up and take this machine to my friend who operates a PC repair business. No doubt it may cost more money then it's worth but I can't just put her in the city land fill or city recycle program.

    The audio/video monitor still works 100%. I still remember when it packed it in about 5 years ago and the local Apple repair guys said it was not repairable but would wave the diagnostic fee if left it there. I said no and found a local PC repair shop whereby for $50 plus another $25 for parts the guy got it working. Not a bit a problem since. So, since then I have very little faith in the honesty of Apple or their authorized dealer.
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  11. #71
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    Arrow I don't know what to think here

    I don't know how much to recommend this because I'm not sure whats what. This usually can't hurt... other than lose the date and time probably a few a few settings and it might fix something or clear it up.

    Open Firmware reset -

    Hold the Command+Option+O+F keys during startup. This will put you in the Open Firmware Interface. At the end of any text you will get a '>' prompt. At that prompt type:

    reset-nvram -Hit Return
    set-defaults -Hit Return
    reset-all -Hit Return

    That should cause a reboot.

    I think we in the right vintage. You'll lo

  12. #72
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    If there are separate ribbons for each of the three drives then there is a drive controller card in there.

    The 8500 only has 2 scsi ribbons (busses) one slowish for the cd drive and one faster for the hard drive. If you have a third separate ribbon to the 40gb then there is a card it connects to... an IDE/ATA/PATA (all 3 mean the same thing) controller card

    Is the ribbon going to the 40GB about 1/2 an inch narrower than the other two?
    Damien,

  13. #73
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    Here are photos of some PCI cards. One shows an illustration with 2 hard drives connected. They can be different colors and shapes.

  14. #74
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    Randy, how hard is this? Hes jerking your chain.
    molṑn labe'
    "I am a mortal enemy to arbitrary government and unlimited power. I am naturally very jealous for the rights and liberties of my country, and the least encroachment of those invaluable privileges is apt to make my blood boil."
--Ben Franklin

  15. #75
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    Hopefully the photos will help.

  16. #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by ricks View Post
    Randy, how hard is this? He’s jerking your chain.

    I am really perturbed by your comment about me.

    Please note that my tech computer know how is to simply unplug an old part then plug in a new part, add/upgrade RAM, replace those 3.6 volt batteries, changing the processor on this 8500 PowerMac ( thanks to an excellent picture guide from Sonnet ) , oh, and take of and put back on the cover to my 8500. That's it my friend. My field is video/music recording/production.

    Taking this 8500 apart has been a frightening experience for me since i think i know what i am doing but in reality i don't. Although this computer at the moment is dead i do not want to destroy it any further.

    I am not a computer tech and certainly do not have the hands on experience and knowledge that you obviously have.

    Once again may I say all your help is greatly required and certainly appreciated for your time and knowledge.

    So what you wrote about me is really not fair.
    Last edited by Mr Magoo; 05-28-2014 at 08:58 AM.
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  17. #77
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    Quote Originally Posted by rwm View Post
    Hopefully the photos will help.

    Opps, somehow I missed checking your replies.

    OK, as I become more brave stumbling around inside my 8500 I realize now that the 40 GB SCSI data cable comes from a PCI card. As you explained to me there are three PCI slots whereby two slots are take by a FireWire and USB card the third slot has the SCSI PCI card.

    I also notice that that PCI card has two ( what I call ) SCSI ports with one of them going to the 40 GB hard drive and the other port is empty of course but I guess could go to another SCSI hard drive.

    So Can I still move the SCSI data cable from the dead Apple/Seagate 2 GB drive to the Western Digital drive ?
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  18. #78
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    I am betting that the card connected to your 40GB drive is ATA ands not scsi though I could be wrong. The plugs look alike but the ata is just a bit smaller

    Apparently you are using the onboard video. wow. I have an 8500 here that I don't use often

    Let me make sure I have this right

    You were booting from the 40GB and the 2gb stopped working and you think that is what is keeping you from booting now?

    If so why not just disconnect that 2GB all together? unplug the ribbon and the power cable and try to boot up from the 40...
    Damien,

  19. #79
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    The plugs look alike but the ata is just a bit smaller
    IF, i pulled that PCI card out would there be any markings on it that would identify that card as ATA or SCSI ?

    You were booting from the 40GB and the 2gb stopped working and you think that is what is keeping you from booting now?
    Yes, using the special startup manager by XPostFacto I could select either the 40 GB or the Apple/Seagate drive. And if I shut down from the 40 GB i could startup the next time directly into the 40 GB.

    If so why not just disconnect that 2GB all together? unplug the ribbon and the power cable and try to boot up from the 40...
    OKay.

    Stand by for the cry of joy or cry of OH NO!
    Last edited by Damien; 05-29-2014 at 06:46 AM.
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  20. #80
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    Having difficulty trying disconnect the SCSI data ribbon and hard drive power cable from the Apple/Seagate drive.

    For me it's not that easy as the pictures show in the "Take Apart" service manual.

    Does it take brute finger force or can I use needle nose plyers ? There is not much room for these stuby fingers.
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