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Thread: Customer needs a Firewire card

  1. #1
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    Default Customer needs a Firewire card

    Have a customer question, which due to how long it has been since I had anything come up about it, had no idea what might be available today.

    Desktop G3 running OS 8.1 in a medical environment. Needs an external backup drive. In my opinion, SCSI isn't going to cut it. Answer should be to add a PCI Firewire or USB card to the G3. However, I don't think you can run Firewire until OS 8.5. And I also cannot find any Firewire card manufacturer who currently lists any supported OS earlier than 9 and any G3 earlier than B&W.

    Other built-in option is ethernet mounted, but the G3 is just a 10Base-T connection speed. That is pretty slow.

    Any thoughts?

    Thanks!

    R
    molṑn labe'
    "I am a mortal enemy to arbitrary government and unlimited power. I am naturally very jealous for the rights and liberties of my country, and the least encroachment of those invaluable privileges is apt to make my blood boil."
--Ben Franklin

  2. #2
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    Does he know for sure that the 8.1 to 8.5 will break his functionality? If he can update that OS without losing anything he needs then that would be the way to go then get a firewire card.


    I had a FW 400 card in an 8500 that worked fine a while back. Probably could scare that up

    What about a faster network card or eSATA card? Probably still have the OS 8.1 issue tho…
    Damien,

  3. #3
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    As I recall there are no problems with software running 8.1, moving to 9.2 would be a better option than sticking with 8.1 and then one could use the FW card. Sonnet still has them. I think I had one in my original beige G3. If they moved to OS9 then they could get a G4. Just a thought.

  4. #4
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    Default Mac G3 Backup

    All the motherboard slots are filled so no go on installing USB card into my V9.0 mac. I did find a 40 pin IDE/ATA connector not in use once I opened up the mac. On the mac in my workshop (OS V9.0) I'm hoping I can plug in what I have which is a SATA drive with adapter to copy contents of hard drive or even clone in the event it crashes. (Any ideas on how to clone the drive?)

    Working in medical environment mostly on site with limited time to open up mac on each service call. Was hoping to do routine backups during preventative maintenance using my laptop and possibly create a bootable hard drive (on site) in the event the system drive crashes and I am asked to bring system back up quickly.

    My customers are finicky and don't want OS upgrades so sometimes I deal with v 8.1 on site with only a slow ethernet hub or external SCSI 25 pin port to work with. At one site a service guy before me created a hard drive backup on a usb thumb drive. Not sure how but was able to use that and disk warrior to remove corruption and bring system back up off site in my workshop. Lots of layers to deal with when working with docs on site. Thanks

  5. #5
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    The first model G3 desktop did not support Master Slave drive configurations. The later model did. The G3's IDE controller is not capable of indexing a drive larger than 128GB. So don't be surprised by that.

    ATA drives are still made by Western Digital, in case that makes more sense.

    You also have a DVD drive and bus. It will also be ATA33

    How about an ATA to Compact Flash card? If they work, at the price ($8 ea) you could install in any/every machine and be able to drop a CF card in for backups, rebuilds or updates.
    molṑn labe'
    "I am a mortal enemy to arbitrary government and unlimited power. I am naturally very jealous for the rights and liberties of my country, and the least encroachment of those invaluable privileges is apt to make my blood boil."
--Ben Franklin

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by ricks View Post
    That's a nifty little item
    Damien,

  7. #7
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    Wow.

    I thought I was the only one. Had a customer running old G3s with 8.6. They were using an ancient medical DB built on 4D.....can't recall the name. Needs Appletalk. Won't run right on 9.

    I pretty much told them they were on their own, and that it was unwise to continue with such an antiquated system:

    • Too hard to secure (waaaaaaay too old to be HIPA compliant)
    • Too hard to backup (most good automatic backup does not support such old systems)
    • Too hard to support (software company long gone)
    • Too hard to get reliable hardware for (even dropping new ATA HDs in early BW G3s is problematic)
    • Too hard to share with any mobile devices or other offices, or other practices, etc.

    When they can't stand it anymore, have them look into something like Practice Fusion or something iPad based like Dr. Chrono, or one of these. Lots of others out there too, just do your homework, and help them do trial runs before committing. Most of the failures in SMB technical updates and system changes come from lack of testing and vetting, and simply picking the wrong product for their workflow.....IMHO. Most of the work is in testing and comparing and getting buy in.
    "Imagine if every Thursday your shoes exploded if you tied them the usual way. This happens to us all the time with computers, and nobody thinks of complaining." -- Jef Raskin

  8. #8
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    Default 40 pine IDE Interface

    Excellent idea using the IDE card.

    My G3 motherboard has a 40 pin IDE/ATA interface not in use. What about this product that plugs into the 40 pin cable and supports IDE cards? http://www.amazon.com/Syba-SD-CF-IDE...ef=pd_sim_pc_3

    I'm guessing I can do a complete hard drive backup once or twice a year during a preventative maintenance in the event the 4gb ATA drive fails.

    Any ideas on how to create a bootable copy of the ATA drive onto the IDE card? I have Norton Ghost and Acronis 2013 will arrive tomorrow.

    The G3 does not have a DVD drive installed but does use a 50 pin SCSI interfaced MO drive using 2.3 GB removable media. We are attempting to train the user to do weekly backups and delete all studies from the internal ATA drive to prevent future mac crashes.

  9. #9
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    The one I linked plugs into the cable. The one you linked plugs into the motherboard socket in place of the cable. Might be perfect if you have the second IDE interface unused. I think there are two - one for a hard drive and one for the optional, at the time, DVD ROM drive.

    Rick
    molṑn labe'
    "I am a mortal enemy to arbitrary government and unlimited power. I am naturally very jealous for the rights and liberties of my country, and the least encroachment of those invaluable privileges is apt to make my blood boil."
--Ben Franklin

  10. #10
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    Default Compact Flash Bootable Drive

    Thanks for all the replies on this topic.

    What I meant to say on my last post was: Any ideas on how to create a bootable copy of the ATA drive onto the Compact Flash card?

    Thanks

  11. #11
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    My memory sucks for that far back. I cannot remember how many beers I drank last week. However, I found this little tidbit that might help. WHile it states 8.6, rules are same for 8.1:

    You don't need nor is there an equivalent software like CCC or SuperDuper for OS 8.6. You simply drag and drop the contents of the hard drive you want to back up to another hard drive -- and it will be bootable. There is no "cloning" procedure -- just drag and drop.

    If you find the copy is not bootable, then the simplest procedure you'll probably have to do is "bless" the system folder. Simply open the "System folder" folder, then locate a file called "System" (it will most likely look like a suitcase with a Mac "happy face" on it). Move (do not copy!) the "System" file to your Desktop, then drag it back into the "System folder." Your system folder is now "blessed" and should be bootable.
    molṑn labe'
    "I am a mortal enemy to arbitrary government and unlimited power. I am naturally very jealous for the rights and liberties of my country, and the least encroachment of those invaluable privileges is apt to make my blood boil."
--Ben Franklin

  12. #12
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    Yes, that's the way I remember it too. Crazy, but you can simply drag all the directories over to the root of a initialized (formatted HD).....before OS X. Here's a blast from the past.....should call it things we have long since forgotten. I think this was one of my first threads here. Wow. Flashbacks.

    Rick: Do you think the Flash card will be bootable? It would be slick if it is. I wonder, as I still have scars from BW G3 Rev 1 models corrupting data on larger/later (ATA133?) HDs. I would have to do a bunch of long term testing to trust it.....
    Last edited by unclemac; 02-19-2013 at 02:08 PM.
    "Imagine if every Thursday your shoes exploded if you tied them the usual way. This happens to us all the time with computers, and nobody thinks of complaining." -- Jef Raskin

  13. #13
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    Thumbs up Sweet

    I've been so busy. I'm sure the answer is buried in the "Vintage Forum"

    But yes back then... sounds right. I never knew enough to know or try different back then.

  14. #14
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    Default

    Rick I think it was less than 42 and that is right. Everything before OS10 was drag and drop, that was truly easier.

    Try these steps to Bless the Folder:

    From the Apple menu, choose System Preferences.
    From the View menu, choose Startup Disk. The Startup Disk pane appears.
    Note the current Startup Disk selection, which is a Mac OS X volume.
    Click the Mac OS 9 System Folder you want to bless.
    From the View menu, choose Show All.
    For Mac OS X 10.2.8 or earlier, a sheet appears to confirm your choice. Click Change.
    From the View menu, choose Startup Disk.
    Reselect the volume you noted in Step 3.
    From the View menu, choose Show All.
    For Mac OS X 10.2.8 or earlier, a sheet appears to confirm your choice. Click Change.
    Quit System Preferences.

  15. #15
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    Default ATA To Compact Flash Card

    Just bought the ATA adapter board and the CF card set. Will test out this week and let you know how it works.

    Hopefully the same drag and drop procedure will work with a GE Echopac cardiac ultrasound application where I am being asked to downgrade the app to satisfy a customer set in her ways.

    Will update as this progresses. Thanks

  16. #16
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    Default Compact Flash Bootable Drive

    I received the compact flash card to IDE/ATA adapter card from Rick's first link to Amazon. Turned out this card was for a 2.5" ATA bus. So ordered 2.5" to 3.5" adapter which included the 5V plug.

    Connected all adapters and cards and plugged into 3.5" ATA cable connected to the second 40 pin ATA connector on the Mac G3 motherboard. (The first connector on Mboard goes via 40 pin ribbon cable straight to the 4gb hard drive which is set to Master)

    Verified 5V present on Compact Flash adapter card (set to slave) and booted Mac. System still shows HD A on desktop but no recognition of the new compact flash drive.

    Tried setting CF adapter card to cable select with same results. Verified correct connections using red marker on 40 pin cable as pin 1 so all adapters should be connected correctly. Also, moved adapter set from end of 40 pin ribbon to middle with same results.

    Any ideas on how to convince my G3 to recognize this CF adapter setup as another drive so I can copy contents of HD A to the CF card? I did see someone talk about bios settings but don't know much about that yet.

  17. #17
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    Cable select will not work on a mac that old. If it's alone on the ribbon cable it needs to be set to master. Also put it on teh end of the cable
    Damien,

  18. #18
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    Default compact Flash Bootable Drive

    After digging deeper I found the CF was not being recognized and needed to be initialized. After initialization the CF now shows on desk top as a drive.

    I copied the contents of HD A into the CF and now the mac boots to the CF (set to Master in second ATA motherboard slot at end of ribbon cable)

    However I now see the message: "configuration folder missing. Can't start without it" "Quit"

    I select Quit and system now shows Mac desktop with bootable CF drive and trash on desktop. Viewing finder shows me that the Echopac 6.3 Ultrasound application is running.

    This Mac is usually connected to a GE ultrasound system via SCSI cable. I am testing standalone. Normal standalone boot using internal HD A brings me to a login screen for the Echopac 6.3 application.

    I copied everything from the original bootable drive and mac desktop into the CF drive except for a printer that shows as X'd out on the desktop. I can't imagine the config folder could be in there. Looks like if I can find the config folder I should be able to get to the login screen.

    Any ideas on how to find this config folder?

  19. #19
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    Default compact Flash Bootable Drive

    OK to drag this out even further. I found out I need the mac drive (now a CF card) to be partitioned so that the Mac v 9.0 boots to that os then turns on the GE Echopac application which in turn looks for the Image HD located on the other disk partition. (Does any of this make sense?) I feel like I am going in circles but am making slow progress.

    I performed the CF partition so that each one is 4gb and one contains the mac os and the other contains the Image HD partition. I boot and now get the question mark disk icon not the happy mac icon I have been seeing with the CF Card as one partition.

    So the question is can you specify a bootable CF card so that the Mac OS V 9.0 looks for the OS partition first then the Image HD partition?

    The other angle is to pull the internal ATA drive and clone or copy the contents and experiment with making it bootable and downgraded to GE Echopac V1 that the customer refuses to live without. I have Acronis but don't know if this will work on an old mac OS V 9.0 Any ideas or should I hook a chain onto the system and tie it to my boat....

  20. #20
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    Default Compact flash bootable

    Long story short you guys had several ideas that worked once I connected the cf card and adapter to a Mac OS 9. I was trying all processes on my Mac mini OS lion and was close but needed the older OS to be successful.

    I also was able to create a bootable IDE/ata drive on Mac OS 9 along with a bootable cf card as backup. Great to know that a cf card can replace an old hard drive. Thanks

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