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Thread: MacBook Pro w/ Leopard and Windows XP Pro

  1. #1
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    Default MacBook Pro w/ Leopard and Windows XP Pro

    I'm in law school and in order for me to use my MacBook Pro on my exams, the school is requiring I run Leopard and Windows XP Pro. Among my concerns of whether it will really work, I am worried about putting Windows on my Mac. Is this inviting disaster?

    The school's informational bulletin is copied below. I have to have this thing set up by Nov. 20th if I really want to go through with it...so if I can get some comments on this as soon as possible it would be greatly appreciated.

    Thanks very much! - Kylee

    -------------------------------------------------------------------

    Info:

    Documentation for Support of Macs for Fall Exams

    Faculty Support and Computer Services (who administers and supports exams, respectively), are offering limited support for the use of Apple MacBooks for exams this Fall, 2007. We are moving quickly on this in response to the high percentage of students that own Apple MacBook notebooks, now that OS 10.5 “Leopard” has been released. Please note that this applies only to MacBook notebook computers, which have Intel processor chips and are capable of running Microsoft Windows natively.

    NOTE: We are offering only limited support for this Fall, due to the timeline. We will offer full support in the Spring. If you are not familiar with Apple’s “Bootcamp” and/or are not comfortable basically installing 2 distinct operating systems on your computer before exams, then we strongly recommend that you NOT attempt this for the Fall. We will not install or configure either operating system for you. We will provide you with all the information we can, including an in-person, session which you will be required to attend where you can ask questions and see what the setup process is like. You must meet all requirements, attend at least one session, and have your machine “certified” (more below) no later than Friday, November 30. This deadline is the same for all students, regardless of when your particular exams are being given.

    You will need:

    - Apple MacBook or MacBook Pro (all generations should be fine, though some may need firmware updates via Software Update)

    - Apple OS 10.5 “Leopard” upgrade (users with a previous version with the beta will not be supported)
    Upgrade available at Apple stores

    - Windows XP Pro. We are not supporting XP Home or any versions of Vista this time around.
    Available at your local Fry’s. Educational pricing may require online order (via bookstore, or http://www.creationengine.com) Please note whether you need the full or upgrade version.

    - Sophos Anti-Virus
    http://it.scu.edu/download/sophos/windows.shtml

    - Knowledge of how to run Windows/Microsoft Update
    http://www.microsoft.com/windowsupdate (or via built-in link in start menu)


    Additional Resources:

    Apple OS 10.5 “Leopard”:

    General website: http://www.apple.com/macosx/features/
    Installation/support page: http://www.apple.com/support/leopard/
    - Be sure to run “software Update” prior to the upgrade. Note the instructions if you require a firmware upgrade.

    Bootcamp resources:
    Apple’s promotional webpage: http://www.apple.com/macosx/features/bootcamp.html

    Apple’s installation/support page: http://www.apple.com/support/bootcamp/
    - Good step-by-step (for pre-Leopard but still very useful) http://www.apple.com/macosx/features/bootcamp.html

  2. #2
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    Good post Kylee,

    Hopefully Eric or one of the others that has tried bootcamp and Windows will jump in and give you some sage advice.

    I am always available to you for what help I am able to give. Haven't put XP on a Mac yet. Lazy me.

    Rick
    molṑn labe'
    "I am a mortal enemy to arbitrary government and unlimited power. I am naturally very jealous for the rights and liberties of my country, and the least encroachment of those invaluable privileges is apt to make my blood boil."
--Ben Franklin

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    Just a quick note since I'm checking the forums via Vodafone UMTS/3G and not my landline DSL. I'll post some detailed information tomorrow (Sunday).

    I have a thread in this MacIntel area about my setting up my MacBook Pro for Boot Camp but with Tiger though as well as my experiences with Parallels and VMFusion, NTFS write, etc.
    You might want to skim my posts to get an idea what you're in for in terms of setup and other things. I can get you more info later.

    As for Leopard, I've only done that on an external test HD, I haven't updated the internal in the MBP. A bit of information here:
    although that's mostly about applications although some tidbits here and there.

    Seems a bit early to be supporting Leopard, but actually Boot Camp was beta which has now expired. So to get Boot Camp (real release) you need Leopard. Sorry just thinking aloud.

  4. #4
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    Eric,

    When you get to thinking on this.

    Kylee has her MBP in the default setup, one partition with her User directory on that partition with whatever she has in data there.

    I don't remember what her backup capability is, her mom has a Intel iMac that she may be able to backup to while she partitions, should that be necessary.

    I don't live close enough to do this with her. 1000 miles give or take a couple.

    Law school (she's brainy, motivated AND good looking!) is requiring her to install both Leopard and XP. Nothing else is acceptable to them.

    Rick
    molṑn labe'
    "I am a mortal enemy to arbitrary government and unlimited power. I am naturally very jealous for the rights and liberties of my country, and the least encroachment of those invaluable privileges is apt to make my blood boil."
--Ben Franklin

  5. #5
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    Crazy that they require 10.5. I wonder why?

    What would happen if someone ran 10.4? How would they know? What would they do....lock you out of the network or something?

    I can't say about 10.5 and bootcamp for sure, but with 10.4 is was too easy to partition live, on the fly(non-destructive) and just install XP.

    The hardest part was parting with $ to get XP. Educaitonal discount should take the sting out of it though.

    Sounds like they want folks to boot to XP.........

    I prefer running Win in Fusion, which requires no partitioning or rebooting. But a bit early to be running Fusion on 10.5 and expect it to be rock solid too. Painless to setup, painless to use, and very good performance for normal desktop work as long as one has at least 1.5 GB of RAM - 2GB is better.
    "Imagine if every Thursday your shoes exploded if you tied them the usual way. This happens to us all the time with computers, and nobody thinks of complaining." -- Jef Raskin

  6. #6
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    They require 10.5 because they require Bootcamp. Since you said the beta is expired you have to get 10.5 to get bootcamp
    Damien,

  7. #7
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    ..........True enough, but I wonder why they require bootcamp, as opposed to just requiring XP.

    No idea if bootcamp beta (for 10.4) shuts off, or is just not supported now. Even it still works fine, I'm sure it is not downloadable. From Apple.
    Last edited by unclemac; 11-10-2007 at 09:44 PM.
    "Imagine if every Thursday your shoes exploded if you tied them the usual way. This happens to us all the time with computers, and nobody thinks of complaining." -- Jef Raskin

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    Longer post still to come, checked back in to see if there were further details to be gleaned -- while I prepare a bit offline.

    Bootcamp beta you can still use with Tiger, but you've gotta roll back your clock -- at least Apple mentioned that in a kbase article in case you need to use Boot Camp still in 10.4 to do something major -- like get rid of it.

    Unclemac, yep I think for them it's less hastle to just boot straight into XP rather than doing virtualization off an image. Their support would need also in the case of virtualizaion need to verify that everything works hunky dory and most likely develop the support documentation to use XP in virtualization in their network, etc. (Mostly the network setting in the virtualization app.) Do they allow Parallels or Fusion, or both? If they pick one they're bound to get complaints.

    And...there aren't non-beta releases of Fusion or Parallels at the moment that are officially deemed Leopard compatible by the companies -- beta releases yes, official releases no.

    Since we're talking 10 days to get this going, were it me in charge of supporting this XP/Mac project, I'd go straight for Boot Camp too b/c the Apple documentation is there and I bet they have the requisite set-up-Windows-for-the-SCU-network docs.

    Heck I'm impressed with such a small windows that they're letting them do this at all rather than pushing everything to spring.

  9. #9
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    Yes, all good points. Still trying to wrap my head around the fact that the school dictates so much detail.

    As for the original questions:

    Yes, bootcamp (the beta) worked wonderfully.
    No, not inviting disaster. If things go badly with XP, it will not affect the Mac. You can kill or delete XP with no problems. Likewise, you could kill or delete your Mac OS, and still boot to XP.

    Think of them as two differnet computers. The hardware is shared (obviously) but the OSes are totally seperate with the bootcamp system. About the only real threat is that if your hard drive dies, you can lose both, just the same as if you had a Mac and a PC and both had a hard drive failure at the same time.

    Go for it!
    "Imagine if every Thursday your shoes exploded if you tied them the usual way. This happens to us all the time with computers, and nobody thinks of complaining." -- Jef Raskin

  10. #10
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    Here are the details, which I wrote offline. Unclemac wrote way more succinctly the punchline.

    For some reason I got off track on the nitty-gritty hands-on stuff. Here it is:

    Go to the Boot Camp support page:

    Download the Installation Manual. You'll need it anyway if you go this route, but it will really give you an idea of what's involved. It is well done; it's not like the throw-away OS manuals. Based on the format/design of the document, it probably passed through the technical writers -- it's like the excellent Final Cut Pro manual.

    Comments:

    1. Full-disk XP SP2 disc needed. Note the OS requirements in the Boot Camp guide, in particular the following that pertains to your use of XP Pro:
    You must use a single full-install Windows installation disc (Service Pack 2 is required for Windows XP installations). Do not use an upgrade version of Windows and do not install an earlier version of Windows XP and attempt to update it later to SP2. Use only 32-bit versions of Windows.
    Full-install disc of XP SP2 32-bit. That seems to conflict with the SCU notes, which mentions an upgrade disc.
    I've only used full-install disc of XP SP2 - I used an OEM disc as well as a converted Virtual PC disc; but in both cases full-install.

    2. Partition creation. Boot Camp Assistant (BCA) lets you create (non-distructively) a partition for Boot Camp, as well as helping you boot from the Windows install disk and creating driver disc.
    • BACK-UP FIRST. BCA creates a separate partition for Boot Camp non-distructively, without wiping your existing data. But make a backup of your hard drive before doing so just in case (as Rick was indicating). Better safe than sorry.
    • Create partition with BCA. It's probably best to BCA to create the partition for Windows, even though there are other 3d-party utitilities which can. (Unclemac and I found out the hard way about this, mostly concerning later use of Boot Camp Assistant.)
    3. Partition file system. You can use FAT32 (with max. size of 32GB) or NTFS for a larger partition. Most likely the choice for you comes down to practical issues: write ability to the Boot Camp partition in OS X and backups in OS X.
    • NTFS is supposed to be more reliable and secure. But OS X (out of the box) can only read and not write to an NTFS volume. There are 3d-party ways of getting write abilities for NTFS in OS X (MacFuse/NTFS-3G) but you’ll need to monitor those open source projects for compatibility. Kinks are getting worked out for using the pair in Leopard -- I’ve used that pair in Tiger so I watch what’s going on. I saw on hardmac.com that a Paragon is working on a commercial product but only in beta at the moment, NTFS Mac.
    • FAT32 gives you both read and write in OS X but with max limit of 32GB.
    I threw in the issue of backups because one probably wants to do it for the Boot Camp partition while in OS X, even though it's not standard Mac HFS+. I’ve tried unsuccessfully to do this with disc image creation in Disc Utility. (Maybe unclemac can throw me a lifeline here.)
    There is WinClone but only works with NTFS. I’ve created a backup, but I have NOT tried restoring that clone.
    If you go with FAT32, you can however always convert it later to NTFS. That's what I ended up doing eventually -- originally FAT32 but converted to NTFS because I wanted to try WinClone; partition is in fact 32GB.
    I'm sure there are ways to backup while in XP, but for me it's more convenient to do this within OS X itself.

    4. Accessing the files your Mac HFS+ volume from Windows (Boot Camp) You’ll probably need 3d party help to do this. See this hint as well as the commercial Macdrive if this is something you want.
    (Food for future thought: Virtualization apps like Parallels and VMWare Fusion make it easier to move files between the OSes via drag and drop (copying) or using shared folders. But when you boot Windows your HFS+ Mac volume won't mount without help; and point 3 above already raised issues with writing to the Boot Camp partition in OS X.)

    5. Activating Windows. Windows has this nasty activation policy tied to hardware. Do NOT activate right away – you have 30 days to do so. Activate when you’re forced to.
    This gives you the chance to redo things, change things, without eating the built-in activation quota. If you use up the quota, you have to call MS. It’s not a big deal I’ve done it twice – just say the Windows got hosed and I had to reinstall. But once was really unnecessary if I’d waited instead of trying to get rid of the nag messages.

    5. Boot Camp, a good idea? I left this issue until the very end.
    • Virtualization. We’ll start with this to get it out of the way. Unclemac mentioned using virtualization software, which your IT doesn’t support at the moment – and we don’t have official versions for Leopard. Like the old Virtual PC (but without the performance hit), with those apps you can instead use disc images rather than a dedicated partition like Boot Camp. If you use a disc image you can’t actually boot Windows. But food for future thought: you can use also your Boot Camp partition with Parallels and VMWare (with a certain loss of techy functionality). This is my setup – VMWare Fusion using Boot Camp partition.
    • Stability. Since Boot Camp sticks everything on it’s own partition it’s kind of isolated from OS X. So everything on the OS X side will still work o.k. I’ve seen no issues on the OS X side of things in terms of stability or problems with my installation, e.g. installing Boot Camp didn’t hose my Tiger setup.
    • Security. I suspect this is really one of the issues behind your original question. Running Windows and even having that stuff on your HD means you’ll need to keep up with virus/malware stuff. I see at least that with SMU you’ve got access to the Sophos. At the moment I haven’t seen malware specifically designed for a Boot Camp setup – to pass from Windows (in Boot Camp or virtualization) to OS X. Suppose it could happen, and would probably hit those using virtualization (and shared folders), or say mounting Mac HFS+ volumes in Windows.
    • Workflow-cost/benefit. As always, it’s up to you do the analyses of cost-benefit and impact on your workflow to decide whether it’s worth setting up Boot Camp. I did it to get 100% compatibility with Office Windows (and Excel Win is way faster even in virtualization than Excel Mac), and my company's applications which are only Windows. My alternative was remote login to my work Windows box, which is actually slower than the Windows in virtualization on my MBP. Oh yeah, in my setup I actually get to use Windows in English too.
    The Boot Camp setup is not too bad. It takes time, and the MS XP installer isn’t that bad. I should add that I had prior experience with installing Windows (unfortunately) but only 2-4 times. (People think since I know Macs that I know computers in general, wrong.)

    You’ve got other considerations no doubt in play. But what’s your alternative?

    Hope that helps.
    Last edited by eric; 11-11-2007 at 04:32 PM.

  11. #11
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    Save your Internet surfing for the Mac OS though because 200,000 PC virii are out there and WILL infect your Apple computer if you are running XP on it
    Damien,

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    FYI Gentlemen, Kylee is out of state at a wedding (not her own

    I'd expect her back in here manana.

    R
    molṑn labe'
    "I am a mortal enemy to arbitrary government and unlimited power. I am naturally very jealous for the rights and liberties of my country, and the least encroachment of those invaluable privileges is apt to make my blood boil."
--Ben Franklin

  13. #13
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    Default I'm back....

    Wow - thanks for all the information.

    To be honest, I really understand only about 2% of what is discussed above.

    A little background, the school has been very paranoid about letting the students use Macs on our exams. Although they have been getting a lot of flack from Mac-using students, the school has not allowed us to use Macs on our exams for reasons I really don't remember/comprehend (again, I'm in my first year of law school and I only try to retain law-related info...computer jargon goes in one ear and out the other). [to see the school's previous comments re NOT using Macs: http://www.scu.edu/law/lcomp/recomme...op-program.cfm

    They have us using a program called SoftTest (https://www.examsoft.com/chp/law/sculaw/) which (as I understand) locks out the rest of the computer while taking the exam. We have to go through extensive training sessions to learn how to work all this stuff so they are not liable if, god forbid, there is a screw up during the exam and our finals are wiped out.

    In sum, the school is trying to quiet us Mac-users down, while trying to cover their butts at the same time.

    I'm not sure if this answers any of your inquiries, but thought I would throw that out there.

    Now, from your comments and instructions, I gather that although I should proceed with caution, it still looks like I should go for it. I have an external hard-drive (thanks to rick) that I use often. I assume that I can just do my normal back-up and then start putting this stuff on my comp. I didn't follow the "partition" discussion - so let me know if I should do something else to be safe.

    Anyway, thank you for your comments. They are very helpful and will be a great resource when I start getting knee-deep in this stuff. Let me know if you have any more questions you would like me to try to answer.

  14. #14
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    I just talked with Kylee via iChat,

    I think what she needs able to do is run a partition for OSX and one for XP. The school tests on XP alone via SoftTest, and allows some limited access to some Office documents during testing.

    She is going to need to own:

    XP Full edition
    OSX10.5 installer
    Microsoft Office for Windows (she has the Mac Version that she currently does all her work on)


    I just for the first time today updated my MacPro to Leopard and installed XP on a second drive. Only big deal was I had to backup my data and reformat the Leopard drive to GUID since Leopard wouldn't install on MacOS Extended.

    Kylee, I think, will need to backup her MacBookPro drive to a Firewire drive, reformat her internal drive to 2 partitions and format GUID. Then she can restore the data back to the first partition and update it to Leopard.

    From there she can run BootCamp and make the second partition into her XP location.


    Any special steps I am missing?

    Rick
    molṑn labe'
    "I am a mortal enemy to arbitrary government and unlimited power. I am naturally very jealous for the rights and liberties of my country, and the least encroachment of those invaluable privileges is apt to make my blood boil."
--Ben Franklin

  15. #15
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    Maybe one Rick.

    With the bootcamp beta, one had to use the bootcamp tool to build the NTFS partition for XP. It is non-destructive and easy as pie: follow a simple wizard, pick the size for the second partition, and push the go button. If this is the case with 10.5 (sorry, I have not done my homework here), then the steps would be:

    1. Backup everything (just in case).
    2. Run the boot camp tool - create partition.
    3. Install XP.

    Maybe eric can confirm, but it may be that partitioning before hand will actually prevent running bootcamp. Will post back if I read different. The good news is, the user does not need to wipe, partition, and restore the Mac side. Super easy.

    As for worrying about the XP side getting infected....

    1. Only the XP volume can get infected with a win bug. If it did, will not affect the Mac OS.

    2. Looks like Sophos is required. Use Sophos at work (on both Macs and PCs) and we haven't had a bug in about 4 years, even with lots of folks traveling and doing who-knows-what on the road. Keep XP up to date, keep Sophos up to date, and you are pertty safe.
    "Imagine if every Thursday your shoes exploded if you tied them the usual way. This happens to us all the time with computers, and nobody thinks of complaining." -- Jef Raskin

  16. #16
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    The reason I expect she has to wipe and restore OSX is that Leopard won't install unless she is GUID format. She may very well be GUID, but I don't know that yet. Have to check.

    R
    molṑn labe'
    "I am a mortal enemy to arbitrary government and unlimited power. I am naturally very jealous for the rights and liberties of my country, and the least encroachment of those invaluable privileges is apt to make my blood boil."
--Ben Franklin

  17. #17
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    Gotcha. Was under the impression that all Intel Macs were GUID by default (have to be to be bootable) and visa versa for PPC Macs.
    "Imagine if every Thursday your shoes exploded if you tied them the usual way. This happens to us all the time with computers, and nobody thinks of complaining." -- Jef Raskin

  18. #18
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    I would agree except my MacPro is running on Tiger in MacOS Extended. I had to copy the data off and reformat to install Leopard.

    That may be because I reformatted it out of GUID when I got it to run my standard partition/Users drive setup. I didn't know whether a MBP came with the format defaulted as GUID. Good news! Makes it simpler for her.

    Rick
    molṑn labe'
    "I am a mortal enemy to arbitrary government and unlimited power. I am naturally very jealous for the rights and liberties of my country, and the least encroachment of those invaluable privileges is apt to make my blood boil."
--Ben Franklin

  19. #19
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    Out of the box the MBP should be GUID; can check that in Disk Utility. And if she has a single partition, then Boot Camp Assistant should create the partition non-destructively without much fuss. She mostly likely will not need to wipe the HD.

    (unclemac, I had already partitioned with Drive Genuis, which BCA didn't like -- whether it was just the partitioning or Drive Genius (or both) I cannot say.)

    But she should backup it all up before trying. I would then backup, launch Boot Camp Assistant to create the partition.

    -----------
    About Office. I think 2007 is just too ugly to use -- I find the GUI changes too radical and not for the better. I use Office 2003.

    She should check for an edu discount through SMU. If not a couple points. If she only need Word, Excel, and PP, then there is an Student/Home edition which is around $100 -- that one is easy to find in the channel at major computer chains even Amazon.

    Otherwise, if say she needs/want Accces, then there are couple of different versions that have it. With Office 2003 the OEM license covers individuals who "install software", so you can save some bucks and get the fatter version of Office 2003 OEM licensed.

    But I suspect she'll can get stuff through SCU, supply being the biggest issue.
    Last edited by eric; 11-13-2007 at 02:36 PM.

  20. #20
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    Here's where I have her now.

    She has a nice Firewire enclosure I built for her a couple years ago. We reformatted it so it could Time Machine. it was in a bunch of little partitions. Then I had her do a full backup.

    Today she gets Leopard and she can do the upgrade in place. Her partition map is GUID, like Eric said.

    Tomorrow she gets XP and we let BootCamp make a partition for that in place. Question for those that have done this before, is there a default partition size that BootCamp uses? Is the XP partition user configurable? Will XP be able to access files and docs that are on the Leopard partition? I doubt it since it cannot on my MacPro, but those are not GUID...Fraid I have a 'Windows Free Brain'. Even though I just installed Windows I really don't know how to operate it much... yet. Learning.

    Rick
    molṑn labe'
    "I am a mortal enemy to arbitrary government and unlimited power. I am naturally very jealous for the rights and liberties of my country, and the least encroachment of those invaluable privileges is apt to make my blood boil."
--Ben Franklin

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