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Thread: Installing Quicksilver processors into a DA or QS. Also MDD to MDD options.

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    Question Installing Quicksilver processors into a DA or QS. Also MDD to MDD options.

    Trying to get some accurate info to edit and slip into the FAQ's.

    Several recent events and another thread here... have me wondering about installing Quicksilver processors into the Digital Audio's DA's or just a slower QS or even looking at easy MDD swapping. I felt a noticeable difference between a 533MHz and an 867MHz.

    Also which of the MDD processor's can be swapped into a slower MDD with minimal modifications? The MDD's came with a 133MHz or 167MHz bus (fsb).

    My first question is putting a QS processor into a DA as easy as putting 12 volts onto that 4th hole on the QS processor? Like I keep reading. In any/all situations?

    I found from reading and testing first hand that the QS processors swap between QSers easily. A QS processor has 4 mounting holes and posts. The DA has only has three (3) so when installing a QS processor into a DA you need to run a 12 volt lead (from molex pug) and secure it to the 4th QS processor hole. Small nut and bolt.
    All QuickSilver's and Digital Audio's have a 133MHz bus (fsb).

    Much of this is old news. So it's not as accessible as it was few years back. So please help post accurate, first hand knowledge and any links that have information.

    The only QS processors that might we worth moving would be the...

    Dual 800MHz - no Leopard support?
    Single 867MHz
    Single 933MHz
    Dual 1GHz

    Digital Audio's - M7627, M7688, M7945, M7681
    QuickSliver - M8493
    QuickSliver (2002) - M8493 First to support drives larger than 128GB.

    Be advised by altering a processor or remodeling it YOU WILL VOID your warranty even with AppleCare
    Last edited by rwm; 10-17-2007 at 03:21 PM.

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    Default No big hacking or remodeling required

    I know a lot can be done with a solder iron but am trying to K.I.S.S. so any "home/basic user" can understand and use with minimal technical work. The plug and play is what I am looking for.
    Trying not to soder or cut resistors on the CPU board.
    What is the best/easiest method to get 12 volts to the 4th screw hole of a QS processor in a DA?

    See the link in post 3.
    Last edited by rwm; 10-17-2007 at 03:17 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rwm View Post
    I know a lot can be done with a solder iron burt would rather keep this basic and simple for anyone to use.
    The plug and play is what I am looking for. Trying not to soder or cut resistors on the CPU board.
    What is the best/easiest method to get 12 volts to the 4th screw hole of a QS processor in a DA?
    Check out this link, it explains it all.
    http://homepage.mac.com/josephk/G4_mod.html
    Last edited by rwm; 10-09-2007 at 04:37 PM. Reason: shorten

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    Default How about the MDD, FW800, and newer MDD (2003)

    Does anyone know if the MDD processors are as easily swappable as the Quicksilvers/Digital Audio's?

    Which MDD processors do swap easily? TZ Has a lot of MDD info 3 pages.
    Last edited by rwm; 10-15-2007 at 07:52 PM.

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    I have never pulled a CPU from an MDD, but somehow I thought they were totally different from the QS/MDD daughter boards.
    "Imagine if every Thursday your shoes exploded if you tied them the usual way. This happens to us all the time with computers, and nobody thinks of complaining." -- Jef Raskin

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    Yep, 4 screws needs to be removed from the heatsink, then you can remove the heatsink and the CPU, no big deal.

    Regards

    Nicolas
    Custom Configurations! Rad Hacks and Mods!

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    MMD processors are not compatible with DA's or Quicksilver's. MMD Macs use a different bus speed I guess is why.

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    Default No not a MDD Processor to QS/DA. MDD into another MDD

    MMD processors are not compatible with DA's or Quicksilver's
    I know this and I should have clarified myself better. So which processors if any of the MDD to MDD's line can be as easily interchanged as the DA/QS processors?

    Obviously the MDD bus speed either 133MHz or 167Mhz needs watched - unless a hack from 133 to 167MHz is done. This might be more involved than most the "basic users" want to do. Also it seemed that they were easily OC'ed from Apple and this seems documented in TZ's long thread posted above/below.
    Then we have 3 MDD's plus they each have small revisions within themselves. Right here.

    MDD model M8570
    FW800 model M8570
    MDD (2003) model 9145, M9309

    Any links appreciated.
    Last edited by rwm; 10-16-2007 at 03:13 PM.

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    Default OC'ing an MDD processor for upgrade

    This link has step by step instructions to adjust and OC a MDD 1.25GHz processor.
    http://bitsandpieces.info/Multipliers.htm

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    I do have swaped some MDD CPU cards but I never messed around with the resistors. It is good and cheap fixing a dead Mac and a running 800MHz dually (dual 1GHz CPU board @ a 133MHz bus) is better than a dead 867MHz dually right

    On the MDDs LogicBoard bottom is also a resistor array (2x resistors if I remember well) to let the CPU card set the FSB between 133 and 167MHz. On a 133MHz MDD LB the FSB it is fixed to 133MHz only but, a 167MHz LB can operate at 133MHz if the CPU card is forcing it. If you install a CPU daugther card from a 1GHz (167MHz FSB) dually on a 133MHz LB you have to solder if you want it to be running at 1GHz and becasue Apple changed specs to G4@867 you'll have to if you want to use 10.5.
    Edit found the Link:
    http://translate.google.com/translat...language_tools


    Also most Dual 867MHz CPU daugtherboards are using faster G4s first because Moto never made a 7455@867MHz only a 933MHz 7455 but, I guess Apple has to lower the CPU speed plus the bus speed in case no one would have bought a dual 1GHz because it is just 66MHz faster only
    So yes, Apple slowed down the 867MHz models at bus and CPU speeds to provide a speed gain for the more costly Dual 1GHz MDDs.
    But not all 133MHz MDD LBs can take 167MHz because not all of the needed "the higher speed LB parts" (a slower northbrigde) are installed, you'll have a 50:50 chance a 133MHz LB will work at 167MHz and you'll also need DDR2700 RAM instead of the factory installed DDR2100. Today this is no big deal but back in 2002 DDR2700 was costly.
    But also 933MHz "handpicked" 7455Bs were used in genuine 1GHz MDDs.

    I would not recommend an overclock on a MDD mostly because you have to solder SMD resistors on a multi layer PCB and without the right equipment there is a good chance killing the entire LB. Just a guess but, if Apple also lowered the Vcore (just to run those underclocked CPUs cooler) you'll also have to up the Vcore which means even more soldering.

    In fact MDDs are the most "picky" G4s ever made when it comes to RAM, LB and CPU, I would not mess around with those Macs. I knew several users who only wanted to add more RAM using PC modules but they failed. Sticks with Samsung, Transcend, Hynix and some other chips were running fine but, serious trouble with Nanya and some other brands of chips, mostly because they don't have the "right" SPD timings programmed but also because the matrix of the used chip (4x128 etc) are not supported by the MDDs LB.

    All in all the MDD is/was a noisy but also powerfull workhorse and the fastest stock Mac available for running OS9. BIG PLUS they also have a pretty good PCI throughput and slots and lot of drive bays (4xHD 3.5", 2x optical 5/14") compared to other Macs (G3s, G5s). So if you want a fast, solid system for OS/System 9.22 the MDDs without FW800 (because those are the only MDDs able to boot OS9) are a great choice.

    Regards

    Nicolas
    Last edited by Nicolas; 10-18-2007 at 01:17 AM.
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    Default Mdd

    Nicolas, Thanks
    That maybe more than the average user might want to tackle. But excellent for those who don't mind a little soder and snipping.

    I am more wondering if you stayed within the same bus speeds. Just swapping MDD Computer <-> MDD Processor with a same fsb either 167MHz <-> 167MHz or the 133MHz <-> 133MHz. Would this be as stable as swapping the QS to QS processors.

    I might spend the money on a MDD with a single 1GHz if I know that I could safely put a Dual in it later of course without blowing things up.

    On the flip side my QS is maxed out RAM, Video and hard drives so tossing a Dual 1GHz in it would be about the same as an MDD with a fsb of 133MHz. I seriously wonder how much I'd see or feel a difference with a 167MHz fsb vs. the 133MHz QS. That is one reason I'd like to test/play with a processor / Computer knowing that the percentage to work is in my favor)

    QS and MDD's differences. Assuming RAM, Graphic cards and hard drives are the same.

    133MHz to 167MHz - this should help a little. Just how much?
    Extra drive space in MDD - not needed by me.
    Faster/larger PCI Bandwidth - doubt I'd notice or maybe I would. But yes a good thing.
    Faster RAM - A plus to MDD as it has faster RAM and can hold 2 GB.
    Case Design - Here's an argument. The MDD does have more HD space and should move more air and cool better but some say at cost of more noise?
    QS has a single ATA/66 the MDD has dual internal bus ATA/66, ATA/100
    The MDD's FW800 is nice in the fact you also get a FW800 port.
    Last edited by rwm; 10-17-2007 at 03:04 PM.

  12. #12
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    Your welcome!

    167MHz vs. 133MHz should speed up things by 27% theoretically
    On PCs this speed things up by 15% to 34% on RAM thoughput (compared to DDR133 and SD RAM PC133).
    On Macs, its more like 0 to -2% in real
    http://www.barefeats.com/pmddr.html

    If the LB is set to 133MHz and you install a 167MHz FSB CPU card it is getting slowed down by the LB PLL resistors to 133MHz and the system will ignore the FSB setting on the CPU card. The Bus/FSB PLL resistors on the CPU daughter card are only used if the LB PLL is "unlocked"/set to 167MHz.

    So yes, there are two PLL/resistor arrays for setting the bus speed, the more important one on the LBs bottom and one on the CPU card itself.

    If you want to buy a MDD with 133MHz FSB I would suggest to let the bus speed at 133MHz (because of the fact that only every 2nd or 3rd 133MHz is able to run at 167MHz) and up the Multiplier on the CPU card instead.

    In case of noise and heat, use a good main fan (120mm) like a Panaflow or a Pabst, install the same 120mm on the back and aslo replace the two noise 60mm fans at the PSU, then you'll get a Mac which is as loud as a G3 B&W maybe a bit more silent/less anoying then a B&W

    If you don't need OS9 you can also save a few $ because the FW800 MDDs (those are not able running OS9) are more favorable.
    As you know I was running mine with 2x15K SCSI (RAID0) on an ATTO UL3D and later with the NetCell 5 port.

    BTW MDDs are also picky with PCI card configurations a card which is working fine at slot 5 refuse to work in an other slot or with an added card at another slot.

    Edit: MDDs have 3 internal ATA buses 1x33MHz for optical drives, 1x66MHz and 1x 100MHz ATA for HDs = all the 3 busses dual drive and 48bit LBA capable.

    If you don't need the drive bays and if you don't want to spend $ in RAM keep your QS it is more stable if you want to upgrade stuff.

    Regards

    Nicolas
    Last edited by Nicolas; 10-18-2007 at 02:58 AM.
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    If you don't need the drive bays and if you don't want to spend $ in RAM keep your QS it is more stable if you want to upgrade stuff.
    I have plenty of drive space in my QS and external backup/storage. I don't want to put much money into a "unknown" used machine and a new iMac computer is just not going to happen in the near future. I am about done screwing around with my Dual 1.6 Giga or I am going to give it one more shot. I can't get it to boot in either my QS or DA.

    So to carry me down the road a year or so longer I am looking around for a used Apple Dual 1 GHz to put in my QS and I've seen some MDD's that looked good. I would only consider one with a 167MHz bus. My QS internal parts (except memory) could all swap over.

    Looking at prices of an MDD vs. a Dual 1 GHz processor the Dual 1 GHz makes more sense for my QS. Damn my Dual 1.33 Giga at least booted up and ran. Now it's floating around Canada.

    Thanks for the help/input. Nic

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