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Thread: Trouble with old PowerBook

  1. #21
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    Thanks for the tip about taking photos.. I hadn't thought of that but it's a good suggestion. And yes, I take a lot of breaks usually. I'm hoping it goes pretty smoothly.. I think it should. Looks like the drive will fly in on Tuesday..

    Speaking of the guides.. what happened to the ones Apple used to have up on their site? They were pretty good ones, as I remember. But I can't find them anywhere any longer. Did they take them down, or are they just hidden really well for some strange reason?
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  2. #22
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    Well, the new drive doesn't come in for another day or two, but I thought I'd post an update on this. After making my last comments a few days ago, all has gone fairly well, with only one or two freezing incidents in that time. But tonight, it's happening every couple of minutes.. ever couple of new pages in the browser. Locking up for between 2 - 5 minutes before letting go. Can't wait to get that new drive in and see if everything gets better...
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  3. #23
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    I just installed a new Momentus 100GB 7200 rpm in my Powerbook 1.5 G4. I used the http://www.ifixit.com/Guide/Mac/ and it all went smoothly. Well, except that the orginal drive had a stripped screw in the drive. Hard to get out, but cleaned it up to reuse it. Couldn't help noticing that my PB was assembled in China. Uncle is right your PB looks much easier to replace the HD than mine was.

    Maxed out the RAM as well. With the new drive and RAM the PB is no longer such a slug. You'll notice the improvement.

    I got one of thesehttp://www.macgurus.com/productpages...ire/MiniFW.php for the extra drive. Makes a great little backup or portable unit. Just put the drive in it and it's ready to go.

    Good Luck.

  4. #24
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    Well, I THINK it's going well.. took me an hour. I started the process of pulling apart the PB, and exactly one hour later, I was initializing the new drive. I'm just going to HOPE everything is in there properly! The Airport card was a bit of a bear to deal with, both coming out and then going back in.. wasn't quite sure I got it to seat back completely all the way, but then the case seemed to fit and close up properly, and I DO seem to have signal.. so here's hoping.

    Before starting the process, I made sure I had two different guides open on my other machine, for reference (one from ifixit.com and one from powerbookmedic.com, which was a more extensive guide). Glad I had both, because they worded things a bit differently, which helped on a couple of steps.

    Those darn little rubber washers that fit around the T8 screws on both sides of the hard drive were a problem too.. no way to actually hold them in place while you're cramming that new hard disk in there.. boy. But I think I got it. There was a plastic sheet.. like a "pocket protector" type thingy under the old hard drive, which wasn't mentioned in either of the guides I had to follow.. it didn't really "attach" but just had holes that fit around those rubber washers.. so it was a bit difficult to get it all to slide in, with all washers and plastic sheet in place. But I THINK I GOT IT!! I didn't run System Profiler once I cranked it up from my emergency start-up, but when I opened Disk Utility, it showed a blank internal drive of something like 96GB capacity, so I'll assume for now that it's going to be ok.

    Immediately after initializing, I cranked up Carbon Copy Cloner and began cloning from my last backup. I'm interested in seeing how long it takes to copy back over to this 7200RPM drive.. I timed the last backup clone going the other way off the old slow drive, and it took 2 hours 10 minutes. I hope it's faster going the other way now. I think it takes longer when your boot drive and the partition your copying onto are different partitions of the same hard disk, which was the case when making the last back up, and now I'm going from a backup partition on the same disk my current "emergency" boot partition is on, so it may still take just as long. We'll see.

    Well, at this point, I'm feeling pretty darn proud of myself.. clumsy old me.. who would have thought??

    Thanks for all your help!

    Cheers.
    jb
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  5. #25
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    Congrats, sounds good.

    Three are always a few lttle things like the rubber washers to deal with....varies by each machine, but always something.

    If you have a signal and the strength is what you used to get, you are fine. Card is seated, and the calble is plugged in.

    Don't judge your speed by the cloning process too much. Once you boot and log in, that will be the test.
    "Imagine if every Thursday your shoes exploded if you tied them the usual way. This happens to us all the time with computers, and nobody thinks of complaining." -- Jef Raskin

  6. #26
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    Bravo! Well done!

    It was my first time to open up a PB and one does wonder if there was something not done quite right. Mine came with the keys that I had to remove to get the keyboard off. One didn't come off as it should have and I had to monkey with it a bit to get it back on. Oh yea and the little rubber feet, the one with the stripped thread screw. It's all a pretty tight fit, putting them together all day long would be a tough job. Better than digging a ditch all day long

  7. #27
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    Not so fast with the congratulations. It's not going so well. Was able to get the drive replaced within 45 minutes. Was able to initialize the drive (booted from my emergency start up disk). Was able to clone from my backup disk back onto the newly installed disk, however, the machine won't boot from it. I get the normal gray start up screen, with the nice white Apple logo in the center, and the spinning gear beneath that logo, but it never makes it beyond that screen. That gear keeps spinning for hours.

    Tried to boot up in Single User mode, and I get the black Single User screen, but am unable to enter any text. The little cursor block is there, but it isn't flashing (isn't that supposed to flash?) and I can't enter any text there (was going to try the fsck thing). So something is hanging up that won't let it boot from this drive.

    I've made my back-ups using CarbonCopyCloner, and have selected "make bootable" in the prefs. I'm able to boot from the backup on the FireWire disk, but can't boot from the new internal after cloning back to it from the FW backup... strange. I've run DiskUtility on the internal to repair disk, repair permissions, and have also run DiskWarrior on the internal. The only problems it reported were a few improper Text Encodings (I think that's what it said) on a few files that were mainly font files for Chineese fonts and such. Any thoughts from anyone? I sure would like to finish this little project off successfully so I can get back to using my machine once again.

    Cheers.
    jb
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  8. #28
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    One potential issue I see.. the new drive appears to be jumpered as a slave. Would that keep it from booting? I've never worried about setting jumpers on PATA drives before.. and didn't add any jumpers to this one (and it came with none on it). But when I check the info in the DiskWarrior window, it shows this drive as a slave, although that might be simply because I'm booted from a different drive when looking at that. Can anyone shed any light on this situation? Any words of wisdom on what might be keeping me from booting from this new drive, when the external I backed up the old drive to boots just fine, and I cloned that onto the new internal.

    I'm stumped.

    Cheers.
    jb
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  9. #29
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    That's it.

    Dang, sorry, should have warned you. Never dug around in a PB of this age, but I have many times forgot to change jumpers......Most older G4s and all G3s must be set to Master to boot - at least towers, cubes, emacs and imacs.

    The good news is, the cloned OS should be just fine. Jump it to master, and see if she boots.
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  10. #30
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    Thanks for your response. I just took a look at the old drive that I removed, and it has no jumpers connected either.. just as with the new drive (and no instruction sheet came with the new disk). So with PATA drives, doesn't "no jumpers" mean it's a master?

    I [i/REALLY[/i] don't want to have to get back in there.. I got "lucky" once with getting everything back in place, but had rather not risk it again if there's another way around it.

    One question about the drive removal process.. why is it necessary to remove the Airport card before taking out the drive? It doesn't look like that would have to come out to give access to the drive. What's the logic behind that?

    Thanks.
    jb
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  11. #31
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    Another note: by comparing the Single User startup on my other machine, I see that trying to boot into Single User mode on the PB, the display stops and hangs after displaying the "BSD Startup" line, and it never makes it to the "Single User Startup" line. What would cause it to hang at that point? It seems that if it even begins to boot (displaying the normal gray screen with the icon and spinning gear) that the drive is recognized as the master, or am I wrong in that assumption?

    I really don't think it's a jumper issue.. neither the new or the old drive have (had) any jumpers connected. (When I mentioned earlier that the drive was displaying as a Slave, that was while the machine was booted from a FireWire Startup disk, so any other drive would naturally have been a Slave I guess.)
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  12. #32
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    It could be that there's a single ATA bus in that PB that services both the optical drive and the HD. If so, the optical drive is probably the master with the HD as the slave.

    What's does System Profiler tell you about the ATA bus? Is there just a single bus or is there more than one? Unit number I believe should tell you whether a particular device is master or slave.

    Will take some digging around the tech manuals at Apple to get to the bottom of this.

  13. #33
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    Follow-up: Yeah should have checked the Tech documentation first.

    http://developer.apple.com/documenta...ure/index.html

    Block diagram shows two ATA buses: ATAPI for the optical drive and Ultra-ATA for the HD.

    So shoot down the single ATA bus theory.

    So System Profiler is telling you that the HD is slowing as a slave (1)?

    If there are no jumpers, then the HD probably has cable select.

  14. #34
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    Eric, thanks for the response and for doing some digging. I can't boot from the new internal drive in order to check what System Profiler says about it. If I check it while booted from my external startup, then I guess the internal would automatically show as a slave, right? But with no external connected, it at least begins to startup from the internal, and I don't think it would do that (or would it??) if the internal were set as slave. With the external connected, if I turn the machine on and hold the Option key, I can select the internal in the startup disk screen, and it begins to boot, but just won't get past the "spinning gear" and finish booting.

    When I mentioned earlier that this drive was appearing as a slave, I got that from the "advanced info" section in the DiskWarrior window, while booted from an external startup disk. I haven't been able to get it to boot completely from the new internal.

    Unless this Momentus drive comes from the factory set as a slave, or as a "cable select," I'm thinking it should automatically be set as master, with no jumpers added, is that not right?
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  15. #35
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    What's the model of the Seagate?

    I looked at an install guide for a 5200.2 and there are jumpers for that:

    http://www.seagate.com/support/disc/...us_5400_ig.pdf

    No jumpers and it should be set to master. Not sure if that's the source of your problem it could be.

    maybe a failed restore? Have you tried booting from the OS X install CD/DVD, launching Disk Utility and repairing permissions? You can try that to see if it's stalling because of the incorrect permissions.

    (Since you have a backup, and while it's not fun at all, you could try wiping the drive and installing a fresh (no bells and whistles) copy of OS X. That would/could rule something amiss with the hardware.)

  16. #36
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    Ok, doing a little digging here at the Seagate web site in order to determine proper jumper settings. I can find nothing there about jumper settings for these laptop drives, although they say the following about their desktop ATA products, so I wonder if the same holds true for this smaller laptop drive:

    Setting the Jumpers

    Cable Select. The drive is configured at the factory for a cable select setting. This allows the drive to assume the proper role of master or slave based on the connector used on the cable (see the UltraATA cable figure below). For the cable select setting to work properly, the cables you are using must support the cable select feature. Current UltraATA cables with the 3 colored connectors do support this feature.

    Master or single drive. If you are installing your Seagate hard drive as the only drive in the system or if it will be the primary boot drive for the system, the jumper should be set on pins 7 and 8.

    Drive as slave. If you are installing the drive as an additional drive in your system, the drive should be set as slave by removing all jumpers. Remember to confirm that the original drive is set to a master position (If the limit capacity jumper is required for your installation it will need to remain in place).

    Drive as master with a non-ATA-compatible slave (SeagateŽ drives only). Set a jumper on pins 5 and 6 and a jumper on pins 7 and 8. Use this jumper setting only if the drive does not work as a master.

    Limit drive capacity/Capacity Limitation Jumper (CLJ). Use this when either you start up your computer and see the message, "Hard disc drive controller failure", your computer does not recognize your newly installed hard drive, or your system stops responding during the boot process after installing this new drive. If this jumper is required, your system cannot support a drive this large and can be updated with a PCI controller card.
    So that indicates that their larger desktop PATA disks are set for cable select, and with no jumpers in place (which was true for this drive when I received it) the drive is set as a slave. Thing is... I believe there are only 4 jumper pins on this 2.5" drive, so I have no idea which ones to jump since all the info I can find at Seagate is for their drives with more than 4 jumper pins. And in the product sheet and the data sheet for this drive, I can't find any mention of jumpers or jumper settings. Hummm... What's a dumb guy (like me) to do...

    When installing this drive, I just assumed that since my original (IBM) disk had no jumpers, this one would work the same way. So that may not be true, eh? The one I got is evidently a model 7200.1 ST910021A 100GB PATA, if that might help anyone help me figure this one out.
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  17. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by eric View Post
    What's the model of the Seagate?
    It's a 7200.1 ST910021A 100GB PATA.

    Quote Originally Posted by eric View Post
    I looked at an install guide for a 5200.2 and there are jumpers for that:

    http://www.seagate.com/support/disc/...us_5400_ig.pdf

    No jumpers and it should be set to master. Not sure if that's the source of your problem it could be.
    Thanks for that link.. I couldn't find the jumpers for this 7200RPM drive. I'd assume they'd be the same, which means the settings for these laptop drives must be different from the (no jumper) setting on their larger drives then?

    Quote Originally Posted by eric View Post
    maybe a failed restore? Have you tried booting from the OS X install CD/DVD, launching Disk Utility and repairing permissions? You can try that to see if it's stalling because of the incorrect permissions.
    Yes, tried that. Did the repair permissions and the Repair Disk option from Disk Utility. I also rebuilt and replaced the Directory with DiskWarrior.
    Quote Originally Posted by eric View Post
    (Since you have a backup, and while it's not fun at all, you could try wiping the drive and installing a fresh (no bells and whistles) copy of OS X. That would/could rule something amiss with the hardware.)
    Yes, I've been mulling that option over in my head.. just haven't wanted to go that route since it's taking over 2 hours to restore each time. But that might be the way to go at this point, and at least eleminate the cloning process as a culprit.
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  18. #38
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    Interim update:

    Well, after wiping the drive and doing a virgin install of Tiger onto it, that boots just fine, without having to change jumper settings. So I'm going to assume that the drive and jumpers (lack of them, actually) is all working as it should.

    So that leaves me to figure that perhaps there was some corruption going on in the days before I made that final backup which I've been trying to restore.. something that allowed the backup to boot, but wouldn't allow the internal to boot after cloning the backup over to it. So I'm in the process now of restoring from the previous backup, done several days earlier. I'll see if I can boot from that, once it's finished. If that won't boot, then I guess it's back to a fresh install and system build out (updates), then copying over all my files and apps. I tried to use the Migration Assistant to build out the fresh OS install using users/settings/docs from my backup, and even though the Migration Assistant showed me all those things, it wouldn't let me USE them from that backup disk??? What's that about? It told me that they either have to be on a different partition of the same machine, or on a different machine. But why wouldn't it migrate from an external backup (the migrate button was grayed-out when those items were displayed)? There's a whole lot about computers that I guess I'm just never going to understand.

    Making progress.. very slowly.
    jb
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  19. #39
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    I finally got it rockin', although it turned out to be a much longer process than I'd hoped. Since it booted with a clean virgin OSX install on a clean drive, I went back and cloned from my backup again. Tested it, just to see, and no it still would not boot from that. But, at least I had all my files on the new drive. So then I booted from my Tiger install disk again and did an Archive and Install right on top of the system from the backup. And then it finally booted.

    So I've been spending the last several hours on a Saturday night doing updates, and reinstalling a few apps and utilities that want to have their system components put in place by their installers rather than by the drag 'n drop method. Running DiskWarrior on it all now, and it looks like I'll be good to go.

    So I'm curious.. what caused the backup to boot from the external disk, but not from this new internal after I restored to it? Just for future reference, I'd really like to know.

    Thanks to all of you for all of your help and encouragement. I'm thrilled to see that downloads seem to happen a lot faster now, and so far in the last several hours I haven't once had the rapid drive-chatter and system lock-up that started this whole thread off in the first place. So at this point, it looks like you all nailed it with the "failing drive" diagnosis. This forum is a great resource.. I keep coming back and everyone here keeps helping out in a great big way.

    Cheers.
    jb
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  20. #40
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    Oh, sorry I didn't get back here sooner. My drives had the jumper setting on the drives label, on top. Cable Select. There wasn't any way to set it any different, as the cable wouldn't have allowed any jumper pins. Sometimes the fun seems to be in figuring it all out, even if it takes too long. I have to say that I really like SuperDuper for backups. Makes a perfect bootable copy, and smart backup only backs up the changes. After the new system was loaded did you try Migration Assistant? It seems to work pretty well also.
    Well alls well that ends well. Zoom Zoom Zoom!

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