Results 1 to 11 of 11

Thread: Beige G3 Rev.A SATA PCI Questions

  1. #1
    Join Date
    Nov 2005
    Posts
    21

    Default Beige G3 Rev.A SATA PCI Questions

    Hi Everyone,

    I was just recently pointed over here to the MacGurus Tech Forums by one of your very kind and very helpful moderators, Costa, who has been helping me over at the Apple Forum. (Very glad he did - I've been finding all sorts of excellent information here - thanks Costa!). Anyway, he suggested that I post over here with some PCI card questions that I've been having, in particular one re: PCI 2.2 vs 2.1

    My setup is: Beige G3 MT, 300mhz, rev.A, model#M6572LLA, Ultra SCSI Quantum Viking 4.5 WSE, OS9.2.2, 640MB ram, Apple53C875 SCSI card, USB 1.1. card, FW400 card, ATI mach64_3DU Display Card, ext. SCSI Jaz, Zip & Scanner, ext. CDRW.

    Side note: Will be upgrading to OSX, but still need to keep OS9 around for a while longer, and will also be installing internal Pioneer 110D CDRW/DVR. Most of the work done on this computer is geared towards graphics.

    Situation: SCSI HD took a big hit - replacing it with..... well, that depends.

    SATA PCI: (I could go for another SCSI drive, - opinions, advice, tips on that idea are welcomed too), but the 2nd option that I've been looking into is to go with a SATA drive (Raptor). So... the quest for a SATA PCI card that will work with my computer has now begun. One of the specs for these SATA cards (like the SeriTek, which is the one I was thinking of getting), often states: "PCI 2.2 compliant". Costa wrote to me about how the two protocals are very similar, (the PCI 2.2 being better suited for the more modern devices, etc.), but I'm wondering....are they identical enough so that I could successfully install a PCI 2.2 compliant card into my PCI 2.1 Beige? (I did see this other posting here from 2003, and I know it was in regard to a Beige/Yosemite, so I'm keeping my fingers crossed in hopes that it isn't the same story for the Beige G3 rev.A(???).
    "...The Beige/Yosemite PCI bus is 2.1 and all of the controllers require 2.2. That looks to me to prevent using it - especially on beige (rev A has a bug in PCI implementation that is "fixed' in the Rev C ROM; OR, OS X builds a new ROM file for Beige anyway)..."
    http://www.macgurus.com/forums/showp...8&postcount=15

    FW PCI: To finish off this upgrade option (#2), I have a 160 Ultra ATA drive sitting here that I thought I would put into a firewire case (backup drive). Was thinking of getting a case that could handle both FW800 & 400. Of course for the FW800 speed, I would need to get another card - ugh. Problem is, slots are fillin' up fast here. (I need my USB too). Been looking into a combo, but once again I'm coming up against that PCI 2.2 issue with these cards too. Has anyone had any luck with a FW800/400 card or a combo FW800/400/USB that works in the Beige G3 rev.A? - if so, would love to hear about it.

    SCSI PCI: I also have a question regarding the original PCI SCSI card that came with the Beige. If I go with SATA drive setup, can I take out that PCI SCSI card and still be able to use my 3 external SCSI devices, or do I need to keep that card installed? From what I understand, the external & internal SCSI are on the same bus, but (as you've probably gathered by now), my tech knowledge is kind of limited, and I'm not quite savvy enough yet as to how everything connects or doesn't connect, or about how everything plays together...but I'm workin' on it and willin' to learn!

    Ultra ATA PCI: So the last option (#3) that I'm considering is to just get something like a Sonnet Trio, (have heard that there may be a slight bottleneck with this card). In this case, I would just go with an internal Ultra/ATA drive, and an Ultra/ATA (in a FW800 case if possible) for the external backup.

    In addition to this PCI 2.2 vs. 2.1 situation, I realize that there are also speed limitations that these Beiges have, (data transfer rates, etc). So, depending on the outcome of this PCI issue, I would like to make sure that I'm going with an upgrade setup, (SCSI, SATA or ATA), that won't be too much of an overkill type of solution.

    Thank you so much for taking the time to read through this lengthy post, and thanks in advance too for any suggestions, advice and/or tips that you may have for me.

    With much appreciation,
    ~ Kathleen

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Feb 2001
    Location
    on the landline, Mr. Smith
    Posts
    7,787

    Default

    Hi Cathleen,

    Welcome to Macgurus.

    I would vote for SATA. Had a Seritek in a Beige tower at work that was running 24/7 for a over a year as a backup server, first from OS 9, then later from 10.2.8. It was fast and flawless with the SATA card and Seagate SATA HD as the boot drive. Did not read the instructions - plug and play. Maybe I got lucky, but I do know it was not a RevC Beige..... That was a couple years back, so I suppose the newer Seritek cards might be a bit different. Perhaps someone more intimate with their offerings cas shed some light on the 2.2 question.

    There are several combo FW/USB cards around, and I have never had any problems with them in a Beige or a BW G3, but I don't have a brand/model handy.

    The Trio should be OK too, if a bit slower, but no experience there, so I can only relay what others have reported.

    Let's see what others can add here.
    "Imagine if every Thursday your shoes exploded if you tied them the usual way. This happens to us all the time with computers, and nobody thinks of complaining." -- Jef Raskin

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Nov 2004
    Location
    Germany
    Posts
    2,352

    Default

    Hello Kathleen,

    to your ?:
    Quote Originally Posted by Kathleen
    SATA PCI: (I could go for another SCSI drive, - opinions, advice, tips on that idea are welcomed too), but the 2nd option that I've been looking into is to go with a SATA drive (Raptor). So... the quest for a SATA PCI card that will work with my computer has now begun. One of the specs for these SATA cards (like the SeriTek, which is the one I was thinking of getting), often states: "PCI 2.2 compliant". Costa wrote to me about how the two protocals are very similar, (the PCI 2.2 being better suited for the more modern devices, etc.), but I'm wondering....are they identical enough so that I could successfully install a PCI 2.2 compliant card into my PCI 2.1 Beige? (I did see this other posting here from 2003, and I know it was in regard to a Beige/Yosemite, so I'm keeping my fingers crossed in hopes that it isn't the same story for the Beige G3 rev.A(???).
    "...The Beige/Yosemite PCI bus is 2.1 and all of the controllers require 2.2. That looks to me to prevent using it - especially on beige (rev A has a bug in PCI implementation that is "fixed' in the Rev C ROM; OR, OS X builds a new ROM file for Beige anyway)..."
    http://www.macgurus.com/forums/showp...8&postcount=15
    The Beige has a 53MB/s PCI-write speed limit
    AFAIK PCI 2.1 is supporting 3V and 5V cards PCI 2.2:??? PCI 2.3 is 3V only.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kathleen
    FW PCI: To finish off this upgrade option (#2), I have a 160 Ultra ATA drive sitting here that I thought I would put into a firewire case (backup drive). Was thinking of getting a case that could handle both FW800 & 400. Of course for the FW800 speed, I would need to get another card - ugh. Problem is, slots are fillin' up fast here. (I need my USB too). Been looking into a combo, but once again I'm coming up against that PCI 2.2 issue with these cards too. Has anyone had any luck with a FW800/400 card or a combo FW800/400/USB that works in the Beige G3 rev.A? - if so, would love to hear about it.
    FW is an option but SATA is the way to go in my opinion and I don't know if FW is bootable in a Beige.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kathleen
    SCSI PCI: I also have a question regarding the original PCI SCSI card that came with the Beige. If I go with SATA drive setup, can I take out that PCI SCSI card and still be able to use my 3 external SCSI devices, or do I need to keep that card installed? From what I understand, the external & internal SCSI are on the same bus, but (as you've probably gathered by now), my tech knowledge is kind of limited, and I'm not quite savvy enough yet as to how everything connects or doesn't connect, or about how everything plays together...but I'm workin' on it and willin' to learn!
    You can use your external drives, but:
    1. You'll need an adapter/converter from 25pin cetronics to 68pin.
    2. veeeeeery slooooow, speed would be around 2.5MB/s to 3.5MB/s, your ATTO is 40MB/s!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by Kathleen
    Ultra ATA PCI: So the last option (#3) that I'm considering is to just get something like a Sonnet Trio, (have heard that there may be a slight bottleneck with this card). In this case, I would just go with an internal Ultra/ATA drive, and an Ultra/ATA (in a FW800 case if possible) for the external backup.
    I would go with SATA, Seritek like Unc mentioned.

    Best regards

    Nicolas
    Custom Configurations! Rad Hacks and Mods!

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Sep 2002
    Location
    Milan - Italy
    Posts
    525

    Default Benvenuta!

    Ciao Kathleen,

    glad to see you've made it over here. These forums are a bit more laid back than at Apple's so you are free to let loose all your computer "sindromes" without anybody taking too much notice about your misadventures, as most of us here have already gone through most of them, anyway.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kathleen
    FW PCI: To finish off this upgrade option (#2), I have a 160 Ultra ATA drive sitting here that I thought I would put into a firewire case (backup drive). Was thinking of getting a case that could handle both FW800 & 400. Of course for the FW800 speed, I would need to get another card - ugh. Problem is, slots are fillin' up fast here. (I need my USB too). Been looking into a combo, but once again I'm coming up against that PCI 2.2 issue with these cards too. Has anyone had any luck with a FW800/400 card or a combo FW800/400/USB that works in the Beige G3 rev.A? - if so, would love to hear about it.
    I am not sure 100% the old Beige would handle a 800 FireWire card - I've haven't tried it on mine - but I know that with a little help from XPostFacto you can boot OSX from a FW-400 one. The easiest FW chip to do that would be the Oxford 911 (though the 922 brings along the same features with it), as such bridge has a fully OHCI and EHCI capablity on it. This further explanation, is more clear.

    Due to that chip, even if you have a PCI bus compliant to the 2.1 standard, the FireWire and USB (1.1 or 2.0) buses connected to a card bearing it should be recognized just fine.

    One such combo card I've always seen working on Beige machines is the Sonnet Tango. Sonnet support has also extensive testing of such card on Beige machines.
    There used to be a nice product like that also from OrangeMicro - which had a nice reliability record, but, unfortunately, I've heard it has gone out of business as of lately.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kathleen
    SCSI PCI: I also have a question regarding the original PCI SCSI card that came with the Beige. If I go with SATA drive setup, can I take out that PCI SCSI card and still be able to use my 3 external SCSI devices, or do I need to keep that card installed? From what I understand, the external & internal SCSI are on the same bus, but (as you've probably gathered by now), my tech knowledge is kind of limited, and I'm not quite savvy enough yet as to how everything connects or doesn't connect, or about how everything plays together...but I'm workin' on it and willin' to learn!
    If you go through this thread you'll learn that there is a "standard OEM SCSI bus installed on the Beige systems from Apple" - which is soldered onto the motherboard and which "allows you a 50-pin internal connection and a 25-pin external D-type connections, for a maximum data throughput of 5 MB/sec.". Such bus is separate from the SCSI PCI card you have added on by Apple when you bought your Beige machine.

    However, keep in mind that OSX does *NOT* play well with SCSI peripherals such as the "ext. SCSI Jaz, Zip & Scanner" you mention. You may need to think about "converting" those external devices into USB/FW ones.

    About gettin' a modern SuperDirve inside your Beige, maybe reading through this older thread of mine may give you some useful hints.

    All the best.

    Ciao cara.
    Costa
    ________________________

    Ab ovo usque ad mala

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Nov 2004
    Location
    Germany
    Posts
    2,352

    Default

    For the scanner: take a look here and see if it is supported by VueScan:
    http://www.hamrick.com/vuescan/vuescan.htm#supported

    All I can say, the SCSI external ZIP was working in 10.2.

    You have to goto support and drivers and download the driver for your ZIP and Jaz cuz you have to enter your email address but, I don't know is the driver is working in 10.3, 10.4 most some drivers for OSX 10.2 are working, ma be you have to contact Iomega support.

    FROM IOMEGAS WEBSITE: www.iomega.com
    IomegaWare 4.0.2 for Mac : English
    Question
    How do I download IomegaWare 4.0.2 for Mac?
    Answer


    Who needs this?

    Supported on...
    Operating System Product Language
    Mac OS 8.6-9.2.2 (.hqx)
    OSX 10.1?10.2.x (.sit)
    Zip
    Jaz
    USB PocketZip (Clik!)
    HipZip
    FotoShow
    Peerless

    English
    Portugu?s .sit
    Deutsch .hqx / .sit
    Fran?ais .hqx / .sit
    EspaŠol .hqx / .sit
    Italiano .hqx / .sit
    Japanese

    What is this?

    General Description: IomegaWare provides integrated features that will help you find, format, protect, manage and change settings on your Iomega drives. Support is included for Zip, Peerless, Jaz, USB PocketZip, FotoShow Digital Image Center, and HipZip products.

    Features:
    * Iomega Drivers- These drivers add vendor specific functionality to your drives.

    * Password Support- This application is automatically launched when read protected media is inserted in the drive.

    * Contextual Menu Support- Control click the desktop media icon to access Iomega functions such as format, protect, and icons.

    * Mac Help- Iomega specific help pages in OS X Mac Help.

    * Smart Installer- Single installer will install correct files depending on the OS running.


    What's New:
    * OS X Native Tools Application

    * 'Check for Iomega Updates' Feature To Check For The Latest IomegaWare Updates

    * Access To Help Files Through Contextual Menu

    * Iomega Zip 750MB Drive Support
    Regards

    Nicolas
    Custom Configurations! Rad Hacks and Mods!

  6. #6
    Join Date
    May 2001
    Location
    1hr N/W of LA LA Land
    Posts
    3,321

    Default

    I hooked up an old Zip 100 SCSI to the internal bus on my Beige, and was pleasantly suprised that it worked immediately with 10.3.9. No additional drivers required.

    I wanted to try my old Umax 1220S scanner too, but the bulb died. Can't find a replacement.

    The Sonnet Trio card works fine. Not the fastest, but that leaves some PCI headroom for the ATI 9200.

    Pioneer DVR-109 works fine with DVD player, and burns from the Finder/iTunes with Patchburn.

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Nov 2005
    Posts
    21

    Default Beige G3 Rev.A SATA PCI Questions

    Hi again everyone,

    Sorry for the delayed response to your postings (had one of those dang deadlines to meet by noon today - now back to the "fun" stuff). So first, thank you all so much, (unclemac, Nicolas, Costa, and M. Brane) for the helpful and encouraging information.

    In addition to what you've all been saying about the SeriTek card, I got some additional confirmation directly from Firmtek last night that both the SeriTek/1S2 and the SeriTek/IVE2+2 would work in this Beige rev.A of mine. - good news.

    One more question regarding the SeriTek card (as you can see, I'm full of 'em). One of my ideas is to get the SeriTek/IVE2+2, not only for potential future SATA external devices, but also for hooking up a converted FW/IDE to SATA enclosure case - (saw that this was possible by this using an IDE to SATA converter kit like this one). Do these converter kits work well, and would the SATA conversion make that much of a difference?).

    Thanks Nicolas for the additional explanation about the differences between the PCI 2 versions (3V & 5V, etc) - starting to make more sense to me. I came across though something baffling (for me at least) at the SIIG site. I went there to check out the specs for their FireWire 800+Hi-Speed USB Combo card. I did their little hardware & software compatibility checker, and it said that the card "Will work in a PCI 32bit 5V/3.3V slot", and with both OS9 & 10.4. However, when I read through the actual manual, (pdf), it said it works with "PowerMac G3 Blue & White or later, 64-bit or 32bit PCI slot". Now, what is it about the Beige G3 that makes it so that this card won't work in it, and only work in a B&W or later?

    Re: SCSI PCI - good to know I can pull it if need be and still use the external SCSI zip, jaz, etc. - would love to have an extra slot. As for my external SCSI devices, fortunately, I only have a Jaz, Zip & Scanner - no hard drives. Until I get all my Jaz and Zip disks backed up onto CDs or DVDs, I should still be able to use them under OS9, right?. (I guess if not, I'll try the internal trick that you did M. Brane - thanks for that tip).

    As for the SCSI scanner, looks like the Silverfast SE will work with my Umax and OSX. I also plan on doing that Apple SCSI card updater - have also been hearing about this OS9forever SCSI card firmware hack for the original PCI SCSI card - anyone have any experience with this?

    Thanks also, Costa, for the links to the DVR info - knowing these things will make installation & troubleshooting a lot easier for me.

    Sorry that I've expanded this post way beyond the SATA PCI realm, but it's been kind of hard for me not to bring up these other issues at the same time 'cause everything I'm doing to this Beige seems to be so all interconnected. So thanks again to everyone for all you input and advice regarding all these issues.

    With much appreciation,
    ~ Kathleen

    p.s. Costa, che stai ascoltando adesso - "Rock and Roll", "Going To California"?
    *;-)

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Nov 2004
    Location
    Germany
    Posts
    2,352

    Default Your welcome!

    Quote Originally Posted by Kathleen
    I also plan on doing that Apple SCSI card updater - have also been hearing about this OS9forever SCSI card firmware hack for the original PCI SCSI card - anyone have any experience with this?
    Yes, I did.

    Cuz I also had an ATTO UL3D and I want to use ATTO Tools for both cards and want to be sure that the card will work in 10.3+ cuz Apple is not supporting the Beiges (and also cards sold with it) in 10.3+ anymore.

    Result after the flash was, the card is more reliable and faster than before I guess cuz it is using the ATTO driver now

    This don't have to give you a headache cuz someone else wrote a nice little helper app called Xpostfacto, I bet Brane can give you detailed info on this

    Regards

    Nicolas
    Custom Configurations! Rad Hacks and Mods!

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Nov 2005
    Posts
    21

    Smile re: SCSI card firmware hack

    Quote Originally Posted by Nicolas

    ... Result after the flash was, the card is more reliable and faster than before I guess cuz it is using the ATTO driver now
    Oh! this is good news!! Glad to hear it not only worked, but made things even better! - thanks.

    This don't have to give you a headache cuz someone else wrote a nice little helper app called Xpostfacto...
    Oh yes, I heard that this is an absolute must have/do. (Can't wait until I get pass "hardware-land" and into "software-land"...almost there....

    Thanks Nicolas,
    ~ Kathleen

  10. #10
    Join Date
    May 2001
    Location
    1hr N/W of LA LA Land
    Posts
    3,321

    Default

    I should clarify that when I wrote "internal" I meant the Beige's built-in SCSI. The Zip is an external model. It should work fine with 9 with the correct driver. I used Intech drivers for all my drives on 9. Iomega's can be problematic.

    XPF is required to install 10.3 or later on Beige. I had some problems initially, but replacing the stock CD-ROM/40-wire cable with the DVD/80-wire solved 'em. I've done a couple installs with the Pioneer without problems, and much faster as well.

  11. #11
    Join Date
    Nov 2004
    Location
    Germany
    Posts
    2,352

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by M.Brane
    I should clarify that when I wrote "internal" I meant the Beige's built-in SCSI. The Zip is an external model. It should work fine with 9 with the correct driver. I used Intech drivers for all my drives on 9. Iomega's can be problematic.

    XPF is required to install 10.3 or later on Beige. I had some problems initially, but replacing the stock CD-ROM/40-wire cable with the DVD/80-wire solved 'em. I've done a couple installs with the Pioneer without problems, and much faster as well.
    Thanks Brane!

    I am not familiar with Xpostfacto.

    Thanks

    Nicolas
    Custom Configurations! Rad Hacks and Mods!

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •