G4 Random Freezes And Crashes

[unclemac]

Hey dc,

Just reviewing this thread again, and I see we all were giving advice to chase down RAM and other hardware issues that are common sources of problems with OS 10.

But you are on OS 9.2. Sorry. It wasn't bad advice.....but still a bit wide of the mark.

And OS 9 and back were more forgiving on hardware, but much more finicky about software. One of the most common causes of freezes on 9 was extension conflicts. Are you familar with them, and the process of tracking them down?

Outside of extension conflicts, the biggest problem with 9 I saw over the years was just software related stuff that a user could not really fix. Pagemaker 5 for example crashed daily during heavy use. No fix, except get Pagemaker 6.

Let's hope it's not one of those.....

[M.Brane]

Have you tried a clean install of the OS, and the MOTU driver? It may not solve the problem, but it's worth a try to rule out software as the issue.

Also double-check the compatibility of the MOTU driver, and maybe even try a different version.

[rwm]

In 9 give RAM a test if needed with Dimm First Aid. - Randy

[dcmix]

all ram, motu driver, extension conflict meticulously
checked.
The 2nd mac G4 AGP is running fine + same set up.
Could it be the pci board having an intermittent
problem?
or psu voltage drop down?

[unclemac]

It could, but I would really look and software, Extensions, and OS first. That was 99% of the trouble I ever saw with 9.

Any way to do a clean install of 9 on a different drive, or at least run a base/minimal load of extensions to see if it makes a differnce before moving back to hardware?

[dcmix]

The freezes still happen with extensions off.
OS9 is also installed on a different disk and
it still happens booting from there.
Is there a way to check the pci board?
Could it be the video card?
How can it be found since it is intermittent?
I don't have the apple hardware test cd
for that machine but i have the one
for the G4 AGP 500mz though.
This problem has been there since I got
the machine.( 3 years!!!)
THANKS! for your ideas...

[rwm]

In case you have not read through these Apple discussions here and here . - Randy

[dcmix]

Thanks!
As a new attempt, I've installed macsbug!
At the first crash it reports:
your heap is probably corrupt...

What is the heap?

[TZ]

A. Three years of problems?
B. OEM or old Maxtor 30GB drives.
- maybe time to retire those
C. Small 4GB SCSI drive? or is that ATA?
SCSI controller model/type?

Dimm First Aid output?

Zero or Test your drive for bad blocks?

Clean install for 9.2.2 done?

Not enough system heap due to some extension(s) load. Either update OS or use something to guarantee and set aside some of the system heap - like Conflict Catcher 8/9.

[dcmix]

Well, thanks for your reply!

No bad blocks on the drives.(Norton verified)
Dimm is ok.(dimm 1st aid & techtool)
PCI ATA card is a Sonnet tempo ATA 133.(no scsi)
OS 9.2.2 clean install was done
and is also installed on a different disk.

I've been having freezes, apps unexpectedly quits and crashes
with this machine since I bought it (used) 3 years ago.
I have a 2nd machine with the same software and soundcard
installed and it works fine.
So...

What is heap corruption?

[M.Brane]

This might be helpful.

My understanding is heap corruption is a result of something overstepping it's pre-defined memory boundary, and encroaching on something else's space. A memory leak so to speak. Quite common in 9, and one reason why some apps behave better with much larger memory allocations than the suggested amount.

I don't trust Norton on 9 myself. My last Norton disk ended up in the circular file after it hosed one of my drives "fixing" things.

[dcmix]

If someone can get a clue with Macsbug,
here's part of the report concerning memory heap...



WARNING: One or more heaps may be corrupt. Use HC ALL (Heap Check) for a thorough check.

Checking all heaps
The System heap at 00002800 is ok
The ROM read-only heap at 000CA7E0 is ok
The heap at 007E17B0 is ok
The heap at 008B7830 is ok
The heap at 01B96760 is ok
The heap at 01BB0670 is ok
The Process Manager heap at 026337E0 is bad
Nonrelocatable block: Pointer to zone is bad
Block header
5F2DDD20 5F2D D6D0 607E 0000 0000 1440 33A1 0038 _-÷–`~•••••@3°•8
The “Internet Explorer” heap at 5BDFCDE0 is bad
Free master pointer list is bad
The heap at 5C2384D0 is ok
The “BBEdit 5.0” heap at 5E492B80 is ok
The “Desktop PrintMonitor” heap at 5E81C880 is ok
The “Finder” heap at 5EFFA2F0 is ok
The “Folder Actions” heap at 5F132A60 is ok
The “DVD AutoLauncher” heap at 5F1A8F60 is ok
The “Control Strip Extension” heap at 5F1F8350 is ok
System heap high free space + TempMem low free space = #1500390000 (#1430M)
The target heap is the System heap at 00002800
Totaling the System heap at 00002800
Total Blocks Total of Block Sizes
Free 006F #111 00411280 #4264576 (#4164K)
Nonrelocatable 178E #6030 01593B4C #22625100 (#21M)
Relocatable 0E84 #3716 00C8C1D0 #13156816 (#12M)
Locked 03E2 #994 0091CE30 #9555504 (#9331K)
Purgeable and not locked 01FD #509 0023FFA0 #2359200 (#2303K)
Heap size 2681 #9857 02630F9C #40046492 (#38M)
The target heap is the Process Manager heap at 026337E0
Totaling the Process Manager heap at 026337E0
>>> With all macros expanded, your command line was:
log "StdLog";set suspendprompt on;dv v;stat;wh;td;ip;hz;hc all;hx 02A6^ ;ht;hx 02A6^^+10
;ht;hx 02AA^ ;ht;file 0;vol;drive;drvr -v;rd -s;sc6;sc7 sp 1k;dm sp 80;dm 0 20;log
The Process Manager heap at 026337E0 is bad
Free bytes in heap does not match zone header

[M.Brane]

canning Explorer... that software has not been updated in 3 years.

Looks like that was good advice.

[dcmix]

Yeah, thanks!
But why is Explorer running OK on the other machine?

Here's another excerpt from the latest freeze:

MacsBug 6.6.3, Copyright Apple Computer, Inc. 1981-2000

User break at 5F3FDB44
The EBBE dcmd has detected that location $0000 has been overwritten

22-Mar-2006 9:54:39 PM (since boot = 1 hour, 36 minutes)
Current application is “Cubase VST/32 5.2”

[M.Brane]

I think at this point I would remove all 3rd party hardware/software from the machine, erase/install a fresh OS, and then start adding things back one at a time if it does OK bone stock. When all else fails start from square one.

I'm not advanced enough to be able to translate that MacsBug stuff into plain English. It's obviously a memory problem, but hardware or software? I don't know of a good RAM testing utility for 9 on a G4. I tried Daystar's PowerControl on my Beige once, but it didn't work. You could have a marginal stick that passes DFA or TechTool, a flakey slot, or software that just refuses to play nice on that particular Mac. Could be why the previous owner sold it.

Reminds me of running the OBD-1 codes on my truck recently. It indicated a lean condition. Ya' think that might be why it was stumbling when cold, and pinging when warm? It didn't tell me that cleaning the MAF sensor would eliminate most of the problem though. I had to figure that one out through trial, and error.

[TZ]

Drop your system file on ResEdit or do a check/verify of it.
I'll bet it will say it needs minor repairs or something.
Only way to repair is to work on a copy. I use to keep a good copy around all the time.
Copy your system file somewheres, or boot from another drive.

Have you even tried using Conflict Catcher? it will report if an extension uses more memory than it requests.
Or a clean system install?
Some extensions are "appe" mini apps and you can also give them more memory. Same with control panels that also sometimes need more than defaults.

OS 9 was a pain eventually that I couldn't want to walk away from.

[dcmix]

Well, finally got an apple hardware test cd!
Reports:
Logic board Error detected
Error code
SCC/3/7

Does it needs to have the logic board replaced?
If so, where to get it?
And thanks again!

[rguising]

If you have a DA / or QS logic board failure, then your options are limited ... Ebay usually has one or two for sale between $100-$200... most likely closer to $200 with shipping.

An Apple Retail board / Repair is out of the question of course.

I would be tempted to think hard about parting out the system and going with a fresh Intel Mini, but thats opinion only... and it depends what Software you currently have and what you intend to use the system for in the future.

If you take your $200 (most likely for the logic board), the value of the Giga upgrade on the used market (~$200?) you are already near 70% of a brand new machine with warranty, Tiger and iLife 06.

[rwm]

dcmix

Which Apple hardware test version did you use? I am wondering about a few things on a recently purchased "used" DA/533 I have. I have my QSer's AHT CD. It would feel nice to have my hardware test good. - Randy

[M.Brane]

Too bad Minis can't boot 9 eh?

The thing that turns me off on the Minis is the I/O options. In order to do serious audio on one you end up using FW for audio I/O, and fast storage simultaniously. Sure it can be done, but I just don't trust it as much as PCI. Too much voodoo.

I don't know what that AHT error code means, but a WAG tells me it has to do with the memory subsystem. Bad slot? Whacked-out controller?

I think I'd do some more hardware experimenting before I threw in the towel, but I'm masochistic like that somtimes.

You can get used OS9 booting G4s pretty cheap these days if you keep your eyes peeled. I've seen a few on craigslist lately that were very tempting.