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Thread: Really Worried about heat issues.....

  1. #1
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    Default Really Worried about heat issues.....

    I know this is an issue that keeps getting brought up, but it is something I'm terribly worried about, and would like any help or suggestions that you folks might have to offer before I plunge into a CPU updgrade for my machine.

    I've read and read (at this site, also at xlr8yourmac.com) about CPU upgrades and heat related issues. It is especially of concern because the Power Supply on some of the 2001 QS models (and also some of the 2002 QS as well, from what I understand) are prone to problems. Someone at xlr8yourmac specifically mentioned Power Supplies that are labeled 'Revision B' as being suspect, and that's exactly what I've got in my machine......

    I've looked extensively at the available upgrades (including setting up a spread sheet to analyze the costs and benefits) and have ALMOST settled on one of the Giga Designs DP updgrades, specifically either the M5D-1213U or the M5D-1214U, but am leaning toward the latter.

    I like the idea of the (relatively easy) compatibility with the 7455 chips, however, am really worried about the temperatures these two chips will put out. (FWIW, Temperature monitor says my HD's are running between 34 and 38 degrees C already)

    As a preventive measure, I have already put in a slot cooling fan (can't hear it over the other fans), and am considering yanking out the unused ZIP drive (this would maybe allow more outside air to enter the machine through the ZIP bezel plate?).

    I understand that the Giga Designs DP that uses the 7447 chip (i.e., 7AD-1418U) uses less power and runs cooler, but am worried about other issues - - such as firmware updates, wake from sleep issues, and OS 9 compatibility (which I still run in the Classic Environment almost daily)

    On another post here, one of the Gurus mentioned that if you stuck with the 1.4G Giga Design DP and didn't overclock it any, 'you should be good for years.'

    Should I take the plunge and buy the Giga Designs M5D-1214U with confidence or should I play it safe, and considering my Revision B power supply, upgrade that first?

    P.S.: Here's a link for more on the Revision B power supply issue:
    http://www.xlr8yourmac.com/archives/dec04/122804.html

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    Welcome to the Gurus, sorry we missed this post. I put the older hotter (before M series) Dual Giga 1.33GHz 5D-1213Q in my a first QS 733MHz. I also tossed a slot cooler in mine and have had no problems.

    Read this and the links contained in it. http://www.macgurus.com/forums/showthread.php?t=20055
    A nice reference here. http://www.macgurus.com/guides/giga_da/part2.php
    More general upgrade. http://www.macgurus.com/forums/showthread.php?t=19460

    Randy
    Last edited by rwm; 05-13-2005 at 07:50 PM.

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    Thumbs up

    Randy

    Thanks for the links and additional info. I'm definitely leaning toward the Giga M5D-1214U, and really like the user-adjustable clock speed feature of the unit...... If it happens to be too hot at 1.4, I can always back down to 1.33 and try that for a while.....

    Thanks for the reassurance (and a great resource at this site!)..... I'm gonna order that baby this week and will let you know how it goes.

    Steve (a.k.a. Boyd 9)

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    Boyd 9,

    My son has a QS 2001 G4-800DP. I never knew about the Rev. B PS issue. I did a rather extensive search for a new or refurb QS PS and could not find any available. I wonder if an Apple Store Genius Bar could tell you the cost of a replacement with a non Rev. B PS new or refurb since you are concerned?

    Back when the QS was mine, I was concerned about heat as well. The locations of the intakes and exhausts on the box generally cause the heated exhaust air to sucked right back into the box by the intakes. And if you have the QS under a desk, that area makes it worse. One other point, do not have the QS on a thick rug nor on a box with the legs dangling. There is an intake and an exhaust under the QS that can be blocked. A slot fan is good. Its fan intake can be mounted to the metal PCI bracket in either direction. I mounted it facing the HDs so that it would suck air off of them tho you can decide which direction would be better in your case. I ended up with all PCI slots full of cards.

    At the very least, make sure that the back wall case fan and the rubber enclosed CPU fan are clean including a little temp sensor on one of the CPU fan struts. Cleaning both can make a big difference.

    The only mod I did to the QS was to remove the 120mm case fan and replace it with a much higher CFM 120mm fan. I did not reconnect the replacement to the power connector of the original. Instead I connected it to a spare 4-pin Molex connector (like what the HDs use). Noisier but better cooling running full blast.

    I looked at the installation instructions for the Giga and QS http://gigadesigns.com/supportdocs/M...ngle_Dual.html and it looks like a neat installation. Other than that one report you linked about the Rev. B, I have not heard of others here finding it a problem. k

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    I saw one at Mac-Pro for $189.

    http://www.mac-pro.com/s.nl/sc.2/category.177/.f

    they have lots of other goodies as well........

    According to the people who posted to xlr8yourmac about the 'Revision B' power supply problem, the part number to watch out for (i.e., the one presenting the problems), was 614-0157. Some people said it was due to a faulty capacitor, apparently.

    I also found it interesting to note that Apple had instructions for removing the power supply, as well at (when you get there, scroll down to the bottom of the page):

    http://docs.info.apple.com/article.html?artnum=75314

    After reading the lengthy discussions about heat issues, I immediately a) checked the inside for dust bunnies; and b) moved by QS AWAY from the wall it was sitting near. The back of the case had sat 4-5 inches away from the rear wall; now it's well over a foot - - much more room for air to circulate (and it really comes out the back with quite a force, too!).

    When I do the processor updgrade, I'm also gonna yank the unused ZIP drive out. I'm thinking of trying to rig up some kind vent / fan mod to go in there instead.

    Thanks again for all the help/suggestions.

    Boyd 9

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    They even have QS 2-bay HD brackets. Hard to find and they are not far from me. k

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    Boyd,

    maybe take the cooling mod's one step at a time and wait until you have the Giga up and running in the stock machine before making any changes.

    Unfortunately the G4 doesn't have an array of temperature sensors. A cheapo indoor/outdoor thermometer from Radio Shack can provide useful information about case temperatures, you just have to put the outdoor probe in various locations inside the case to get some idea of what's going on. The two critical areas in the case are the PCI cards and the hard drives. Temperature Monitor from Bresink will report SMART temperature sensing from enabled hard drives, and the Gadget Shack probe can monitor PCI-slot area temperature, which should be less than 50C, anything greater than 50C in either case is a cause for concern because it can result in damage. Cooler is better.

    I'm recommending the slowly-slowly-catchee-monkey approach because you need to know what the effect of any given modification is, and to know that you need a base line with which to compare it.

    e.g. The case fan and PSU fan in a QS move air out of the case. Cooling air enters via vents at the bottom and rear of the case, and via the CPU-fan's grille on the back panel. If you pull the ZIP drive and bezel you'll provide a free passage of air to the inlet of the PSU fan. That's great for the PSU, it will love you, but it may also reduce the airflow from the vents at the bottom of the case and result in a hot-spot in the PCI slot area. I say "may", I don't know, but if it were my machine I'd find out.

    biggles.
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    maybe take the cooling mod's one step at a time and wait until you have the Giga up and running in the stock machine before making any changes.
    I agree to wait, you cleaned it out really good - that can change cool things 3-6C alone if dirty. You also made sure you have adequate air flow around the computers back and have added a PCI Slot fan. I think you'll put the Giga in and be fine.

    Let us know. - Randy

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    (This is long; I apologize; I've got that horrible feeling in the pit of my stomach, and don't know what to do).

    Well,

    I got the Giga Dual CPU updgrade and installed it today (I had already followed all instructions for firmware updates etc) in my 867 MHz 2001 Quicksilver.

    All seemed well at first. Since it is guaranteed to run at 1.4 GHz, I left it set up that way, all the while keeping my eye on heat issues. I installed the 'Giga Meter' software supplied with the unit, ran the Pilot module on OS X Cocktail (repairs permissions, runs cron scripts etc), and then played around with the unit a bit. Wow! It seemed pretty cool.

    My first problem came with trying to create a new edrive with Tech Tool Pro 4.0 - - it crashed half way thru (with the multi-language message in the middle of the screen). So, I rebooted, repaired permissions again, and the second time, the edrive was created successfully. Then, I booted with the edrive and ran TTP 4.0 (Intermediate suite of tests). The unit froze on me in the last part of the test (checking File structure), so I rebooted again and when I ran the file test the second time, it was successful; no errors.

    Booting back up with the main drive, I managed to get yet another error (actually trying to print out the Giga Registration card). This time, I got a real kernel panic...... So, I decided to open the case, and reset the dip switches for dual 1.33 GHz operation. This would be better, I thought - - using less power and/or generating less heat.

    All the while, I was monitoring temperatures with Temp Monitor and the SMART feature of my HDDs. Before the CPU updgrade, temps ranged from 30 to 36 C with normal use, to 38 C max. I also rigged up a temp probe to monitor temperatures coming out of the PSU unit exhaust fan. Before CPU updgrade, it ranged right around 77-78 degrees F (in a 70 degree F room); afterwards, I saw temps ranging around 80 to 81 F. With light use (running itunes, surfing the web), temp monitor gave me temps on my HDD's of 33 C to 38 C, to an absolute max of 40 C - - but they wouldn't stay there; they'd always cool back down to 36 to 38 C.

    I tried putting the Mac to deep sleep - - and then saw the temp probe by the PSU exhaust fan start to climb steadily. I panicked, woke up the computer (it woke from sleep just fine) and then decided to reset the energy saver prefs to 'no sleep', figuring it was best to have the internal fans running all the time. I also put a small table-top fan on top of the unit, blowing up and away from it, to help suck up the hot air exhaust from the PSU and this seemed to help lower temps by a wee bit as well.

    So far so good, I thought. Now, with the unit not going to sleep, I set Temp Monitor to record the temp history. When I looked at the history window, again, it told me that the highest temp was 40 C.....

    Coming back to the unit a half hour later, I was greeted with the multi-lingual message in the middle of the screen. When I restarted, I got a white pixelated screen which I've never seen before. I held the power button until it shut down, then opened the case. Nothing looked out of the ordinary...... I waited five minutes, and when I restarted I got the usual 'all's well' chime, but just a black screen. I held the power button, shut it down, and waited 15 minutes. Same thing. The 'OK' chime and just a black screen.

    I guess I'm screwed? What next.........

    I suppose I'll call Giga first thing Monday morning..... any other ideas?

    Boyd

    P.S.: Good thing I backed up my data 3 different times before and after the install....... I guess that's at least something......

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    Lightbulb

    I am not a fan of eDrives. I just create my own partition and put a system there with everything. As well as my own BootCD. Moving partitions around and whether TechTool Pro 4.0.4 is the culprit... put that on the back burner for now.

    what is important is the RAM you have.
    Air flow.
    Fans.
    that the fan on the cpu is working. Either constant or thermal regulation.
    that your system (10.3.9? 10.4.1?) was stable and is solid.

    the only way I know sometimes is to clone a system to a new drive and clean it up.

    you mentioned using cocktail. I use to but switched over to Tiger Cache cleaner (it runs in Panther also but adds a lot of useful features).

    We have a guide to Tiger that might help even if you have not yet. Any 3rd party startup items, fonts, floating around?

    Apple Hardware Test results:
    Memtest and/or Rember:
    PCI cards:
    You have three hdds. Certainly enough and should be able to have a main boot drive and one for emergencies and testing.

    Any time a computer crashes, immediately run AppleJack and/or boot from an alternate drive and run repairs. No disk utility is perfect.

    I think your temps are well within reason.

    Blank Screen: Reset PMU
    In the Troubleshooting Guide is a link to Hardware & Software Troubleshooting from Apple [/url] and MacMan's excellent checklist.

    Does the Giga cpu have one large or two small fans now? I know one fan is actually more efficient and covers more surface area. As mentioned earlier some people make sure that they are exhausting hot air, and drawing in new cooler air.

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    Now, don't you panic Mr. Mainwaring!

    First of all, well done for backing up your data. Some don't, believe it or not!

    Second, the temp's you describe sound about par for the course and no cause for concern. I think that the rising temp at the PSU exhaust after sleep is due to the sudden loss of cooling air since all those hot bits in the PSU are still hot until they lose their heat to the now-not-moving air, so for sure you'll see a temperature rise. If the machine's asleep then it's asleep, drawing very little power and making very little heat. I don't think that this is an over-temp issue.

    I guess the first question has to be about the RAM. Top quality stuff? If you have a mixed bag, maybe pull all but one stick of the best you have.

    How about a reset of the PMU? The PMU button is near the battery on the logic board.

    A duff Giga card isn't impossible, just unlikely, so maybe try these things first before you call.

    (And now I see that TZ beat me to it, as usual!)
    Last edited by biggles; 05-21-2005 at 03:28 PM. Reason: slow on the draw, again!
    "illegitimis non carborundum"

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    Boyd,

    What OS you running? Did you update TechTool Pro to v4.0.4 before running it? Personally I would not run it for v4.0 under any circumstances. I've also heard of folks having troubles with edrive so I don't touch that. Otherwise TechTool Pro v4.0.2 for Panther and 4.0.4 for Tiger have been good to me on my GigaMDD. k

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    Boyd

    I think your OK. Clean your intake port and fan by the CPU heat-sink. I have a Giga DP 1.33 in a QS and 2 stock drives and 1 newer SATA. On 24/7. Monitoring HD's with Hardware monitor. They cool 1-2 C degrees at night. Here are my temps now about 6 p.m.. I have seen them higher.

    Bottom Rear - the stock Seagate 40 gig - is 38 C gets to 41C
    Top Rear - IBM 60GXP 60 gig - is 42 C gets to 45/46C
    Center/Middle - new Seagate SATA 120 gig - is 39 C gets to 42/43C

    I bet mine would cool some if I... dump my old 40 gig and 60 gig out for 1 new 120 GB drive. Other things first.

    You are not near any max specs. 55-60 C or somewhere around there for most hardware. Yes cooler is better.

    Randy

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    Thanks for the quick replies.... they do wonders to help with those 'pit of the stomach/oh, what have I done?' sensations....

    Just checked the articles from Apple support site. Which should I do first, reset the PMU or try the cuda button (never tried either).

    RAM could be the problem. As I asked about/mentioned under the Memory updgrade discussion, I've got two sticks of 2-2-2 and one of 3-2-2. Maybe I should yank the 3-2-2 and try the two sticks of 2-2-2.

    I honestly don't know which version of TTP 4.0.x I have. I got that after reading lengthy discussions at Apple Support forums about the horrors of Norton, which I subsequently removed.

    I'm running OS 10.3.9. Up until now, my system has been fairly stable. Upon initially switching to OS X last year, I had a lot of issues that needed working out and a horrendous amount of kernel panics etc.

    That's when I added more RAM (purchased from the friendly folks at my local Mac store, but not 2-2-2 type as I already had installed..... I didn't really understand those issues at that time).

    How I solved my problems in OS X was to try to troubleshoot my fonts as much as possible and get it under control with a font management util, and with a 867 MHz 2001 QS, I avoided, as much as possible, never trying to do too many things at once...... this worked wonders with the kernel panics I was having at the time...... No running itunes and OS 9 at the same time (inevitable crash) or doing a data backup with Dragon Burn 4.0 with the screen saver running (ditto, usually)..... and no running the itunes visualizer by itself, either (always crashes)...... this was why I ordered the Giga updgrade (purchased from Mac Gurus, of course)..... I yearned to multitask once again and was sick and tired of only being able to (reliably) do one thing at a time.......

    I suppose it is a good thing that I did NOT smell any burning plastic/electronics when I opened the case. Maybe temps are OK and it just needs a cooling off.

    I am writing this on wife's powerbook; it honestly did NOT occur to me to run the Apple Hardware test...... if I can get past the blank screen, can get the Hardware Test CD inserted into the Superdrive and get the darned thing rebooted properly from the CD, I'll be sure to try it first thing.

    I realize that no one drive utility is best. I just try to do my best with Cocktail, TTP and Disk Warrior. I backup data regularly, try to keep the obvious maintained and keep the clutter down, and knock on wood, I've had a few good months of a solid reliable system.

    If you read above, I also have a slot cooling fan installed 2 slots below the graphics card, and below the slot fan, I have a Sonnet Tempo ATA 133 PCI card (yes, I know ATA is 'old fashioned') which also, to knock on wood, has been absolutely NO TROUBLE whatsoever, as far as I know (but I could also remove it if need be for troubleshooting purposes).

    Oh, BTW, when I opened the case, the little red light on the mobo was glowing..... I assume that's a good thing, right?

    Thanks again

    Boyd

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    it honestly did NOT occur to me to run the Apple Hardware test...... if I can get past the blank screen, can get the Hardware Test CD inserted into the Superdrive and get the darned thing rebooted properly from the CD, I'll be sure to try it first thing.
    Yes try it.. but I recall reading it did not work at times with the Giga. But that was long ago many OS X updates, Giga fixes. Probably not a problem any longer. But just don't freak if it does not work or report things right..

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    A lack of burning smell is very good! It augers well.

    Do one thing at a time. I'd pull all but one stick of RAM; they should all be up to spec' but maybe don't play nice together, and one's enough to just boot. If that doesn't fix it, reset the PMU (previously known as CUDA).

    The little red light on the mobo is good. No light is bad.

    If you get to running Hardware Test, be aware that it may not like the Giga upgrade. I had a dual Giga in a G4 DA and AHT wouldn't recongize the CPU, except on the one occasion that it did! Go figure. I would only rely on AHT if run with the stock CPU.

    The Sonnet card is unlikely to be causing any problem. Of course, if none of the above stunts solve the problem then pulling all 3rd party additions would be standard procedure for trouble shooting, and also for running Apple Hardware Test.
    "illegitimis non carborundum"

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    OK

    Using my wife's powerbook, printed article from apple on resetting the PMU. Following instructions, tested the battery and I got somewhere around 3.6 to 3.8 volts (well, it's not the most accurate of testers, but it gets the job done). So far so good. I pressed the PMU button once, waited 10 seconds, plugged it in, crossed my fingers and rebooted.

    The screen went white with the gear, then black, then white with text: welcome to openfirmware and to type "mac-boot" to continue booting and to type "shut-down" to shut down.

    The keyboard SEEMS TO have no response. Can't get Superdrive open to insert a bootable disc (pressing the eject key did nothing). I pressed and held the power button; this shut it down. So, maybe I'm not dead yet. Haven't tried removing excess RAM yet - - saving that trick for later.

    In my weeks and weeks of reading at xlr8yourmac prior to purchasing the updgrade, I somewhere read, and could have SWORE that I saved and printed out some very simple instructions for what to do just in case some thing like this happened with the open firmware deal........ of course, I can't seem to locate those instructions now........ I must've saved them to disc rather than print them out.......

    Good thing I've got my back up discs; maybe those instructions are in my documents folder somewhere.......

    Thanks for all the help......

    Boyd

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    I want to get clarified that keyboard lack of response in OF. Are you saying that you could not type in OF? Sounds like that is the case. Keyboard plugged directly into the USB port on the back of the QS or what? Is this an Apple keyboard and mouse or what? Recheck everything plugged in correctly. Then maybe try the other USB port. If not an Apple mouse then try plugging it into the remaining USB port instead of the keyboard. Then power up. k

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    Yeah, the first time I got the OF screen, there was no keyboard response. Nothing. Still have everything plugged in 'as normal', but now, obviously, time to start unplugging excess peripherals.

    Apple Pro Keyboard plugged into the back of the 17" Apple LCD screen USB port. Pro Mouse plugged into keyboard.

    Actually, since the first OF screen, I tried rebooting several times. With option key down, got to the 'blue screen' with the 'restart' and 'continue' arrows...... although nothing above to choose from. Got the Hardware test CD installed in Fire Wire DVD-RW, but would not boot (no surprise there) and upon restart got the OF again and this time the keyboard was responsive...... no go typing "mac-boot" though..... I wished I'd typed the commands for resetting nvram etc now. Another restart gave me the blue screen AND two OS X boot volumes to choose from (boot vol and edrive)..... I chose the boot volume instead of the edrive.... wrong choice..... I tried 'safe boot' and the screen went black again...... aaaaaargh!

    (Throughout all this, still no go trying to get the superdrive tray open..... could Apple please put a simple eject button on these things, please???)

    I pulled out the one stick of 3-2-2 RAM. Maybe this made things better. I dunno... I appreciate all suggestions and will continue troubleshooting in the morning.........

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