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Thread: Blue&White Vs. Beige

  1. #1
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    Default Blue&White Vs. Beige

    Hmmmmm, silly me, i just bid on and won a G3-300 Blue&White on ebay.

    I currently use a Beige w/Sonnet g4-700zif and new Fujitsu Mas 15k and Map 10k drives on a 2940u2b card.(As TZ knows well!)

    I guess i've been wondering what the improvement would be if i move my processor and scsi stuff over to the B&W.(won it for $75 so...not too bad)
    I also wanted usb etc....

    Problem is ,I just remembered (after bidding) that my Sonnet is only for the beige, so i'll have to buy another. Ram is all PC100/8ns so that will be ok.


    My question is, I seem to remeber something about Sonnet processors lowering the buss to 66mhz in the B&W. Any info on this?
    Any other comparitive info would be great!

  2. #2
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    Ok, after checking i see Sonnet will lower the buss to 66mhz.
    How would the Beige/g4-700 compare with the B&W with an XLR8 g4-600 from Gurus? XLR8 keeps the 100mhz buss right?

  3. #3
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    Hello Hebjam,

    Take a look.

    And here.

    I have a B&W 400Mhz and it is faster than the Beige. It has 64 Bit PCI slots and one 66MHz PCI slot for the video card. The entire system throughput is better.

    Before you can install a G4 CPU, you have to patch the G3's firmware.

    Regards

    Nicolas

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  5. #5
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    Hi hebjam,

    Owning both of those computers, I think you'll grow pretty fond of the B&W. It's kind of the first in the line that Apple sort of kept the form of until the G5 came out. You wouldn't think that the difference between 66Mhz and 100 Mhz on the system bus would make all that much difference, but I believe you'll notice the increase. Quite a bit more brisk - especially if you have the Daystar Nitro chip. (That firmware change is a must for a G4).

    Having said that, I must confess that I've got a Powerlogix 750Gx @ 1Gig in mine. From the torture that I've heard some went through with PowerLogix, I conclude that I was pretty lucky. It has work well to date. The 750GX is a G3 chip - so that slows AltiVec encoded apps, but the Daystar is a fine chip and is G4.

    Yes, I did not care for the Sonnet requirement to lower the system bus to that of a G3 Beige. It was like a step backwards. In the article Nickolas recommended, you can read about the slow down in memory performance due to that requirment.

    The B&W also responds well to SATA. I've got a 160GB in mine and it is quite swift. Much faster than the onboard ATA. Any supported (and some unsupported DVD wirters just work after hooking it up.

    Loads Panther (and will Tiger too I am told) natively. No need for XPostFacto. Very good video performance with the ATI 9200 PCI.

    Max out the ram PC100 will work - check the MacGurus store. Nothing like beefing up the processor to expose ANY shortcomming in ram. MacGurus have the best I've ever found. You'll need the max for Panther and Tiger.

    Great buy, I might add.

  6. #6
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    More mileage in a 100MHz bus BW.

  7. #7
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    Thanks folks,
    What i'm really wondering is how these 2 configurations would stack up:

    Beige w/Sonnet g4-700(Actually runs at 735mhz)/66mhz buss

    Blue&White w/xlr8 600mhz/100mhz buss.

    Am i just trading 4 quarters for a dollar?

  8. #8
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    Using the WAG method Wild Arse Guess. I say the BW 600MHz CPU and 100MHz bus plus all the newer age hardware that the beige does not have. - Randy

  9. #9
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    If nothing else, four PCI slots (one is fixed 66 MHz) and the rest are 32-bit/33MHz, no? and support for 1024MB RAM and 3-4 hard drives. But probably because the B&W is NewWorld and less trouble, better supported. (If you use FW, invest in a PCI FW card, but you can't boot off FW in either.)

    The only reason for the Beige is that it is quieter usually. If desktop, heat is a real issue for Beige, but not for MT units.

    The problem is that you have a rev 1. I've seen people go crazy trying to get it to work even after putting "good" Crucial RAM in along with PCI IDE controller. Hope you didn't "win" someone else's 'lemon.'

    For any hard drive larger than 20GB or faster than 16MB/sec, you NEED to invest in PCI - the 2940U2B should though be fine, it was OEM in that machine. But you will never get more than 53MB/sec. SATA can go in the 66 MHz slot, or you can put Radeon 9200 in B&W also.

  10. #10
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    Hello,

    the 600MHz G4 B&W I think, plus, the 66MHz slot video card speed up

    Regards

    Nicolas

  11. #11
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    I would be porting over all my beige stuff to the B&W:2940u2b ,Fujitsu Mas &Map 15k/10k drives etc....
    I just need to decide on a cpu-Daystar g4-600,Sonnet..., or Powerlogix.
    I think the Daystar is the only G4 that keeps the 100mhz buss?

    So i could put my 2940 card in the 66mhz pci slot? That wouldn't hurt video performance?

  12. #12
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    I think you're right about that. The Sonnet is a faster chip - if you read Sonnet's hype about it - they'll say it's pretty fast even with the bus lowered. Nicolas pointed out the key comparative article under "Take a look" below that tests these chips. Now they did not test the Daystar chip but the OWC chip they did test was the same chip, but on OWC's zif board. OWC has had some problems getting their version to not run hot and not be subject to freeze ups. So . . . the Daystar nitro verson is the best bet.

    That's an excellent article for someone who has to make the judgment calls you'll be making on this. It seems to me (this is blab) that us B&W folk are in a kind of special circumstance because if you decline to lower the system bus to 66Mhz, that puts you with (realistically) two choices: Daystar 600 or Powerlogix 750GX. Then the question is how much AltiVec will you need to use - you'll see from that article that the 750GX does pretty good against the (OWC) nitro (even though they had to lower the CPU speed (a little) to get it to not crash. The 750GX is fast and has a great cache that operates at the chip speed. It will get it on, except for AltiVec and then it takes it longer - more and more things have AltiVec. But not everything.

    Then . . . if you're tempted by the 750GX, you gotta consider Powerlogix. Now I understand that OWC is handling the returns and customer support for this zif. When Powerlogix was handling it - it was awful - it was ruining them. It's not really from the frying pan into the fire, because for the little I've gotten at OWC, they've been pretty good about swaping out poor stuff.

    But I also need to say that Daystar is even better. Gary is a great guy and has no hesitation about replacing anything that is not up to par.

    Upgrading has a lot of tricks and problems that can come along with it, so it's a pretty good feeling to deal with a company that has a good reputation for customer support.

    As a final note, the second article that Nicolas pointed out has in it information about how to identify whether you're B&W is a rev 1 or rev 2. You need to have that information so that you're aware of your options.

  13. #13
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    I do pro audio (Cubase Vst 32 5.1r2)-The r2 is an Altivec enhanced Cubase.
    I'm just not sure how much altivec is used in audio. Could never get clear info from Steinberg about it.
    As i said earlier , my current setup of the Beige and Sonnet g4-700 actually runs at 735 mhz for some reason. That's what i'm wringing my hands over, how would the B&W w/g4-600 compare... How much difference does that 100mhz buss make...
    The other thing is the sonnet cpu's are the only ones with L3 cache(I think)

  14. #14
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    The question is whether you will make up 135MHz in the CPU with the 100Mhz bus. I think so. Probably with some to spare - but that a subjective statement. More PCI slots. (faster too) Onboard USB and FW. You're headed up.

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    one step back, two steps forward.. a really tough choice... - Randy

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    When I had the Sonnet G4/1000 in Beige, it was... no longer taking so long for menus and for all those OS X (10.3.3 a year ago) authentication dialogues. In fact, it was almost as fast as my B&W G4/500

    My B&W has 1GB RAM, boots from 15K drive in the 66 MHz slot (10% hit putting the video card in 33 MHz slot didn't hurt as much as slow I/O) so I could enjoy the speed of the 39160.

    My Beige is G3/500 with fsb set to 83MHz without the Sonnet. If I put the $200 Daystar in there I think it would be fine for Beige, or even B&W. And use the money for other things. I would not want to put a Sonnet G4/700 into B&W. There is, guys, a review of Sonnet vs PL vs Daystar (but not the latest info) on www.xlr8yourmac.com

    The real clincher is memory thruput. Any G4 in Beige or B&W is going to help, but more so in B&W.

    fsb * 1.64 = memory thruput (basically)
    66 MHz * 1.64 = 104 (though I have seen 108MB/sec)
    100 MHz * 1.64 = 164MB/sec

    So you have a real improvement in memory performance in Smurf.

    With a G3, memory thruput starts at .99 of fsb, and then falls off quickly with use and time to 85MB/sec, though I don't know about PL G3/1.1.

    Ideal: B&W with G4/600, 1GB RAM, SeriTek card (in 66 MHz slot), and 10K Raptor and Maxtor 250-300GB SATA drives, Radeon 9200, FW/USB2 controller.

  17. #17
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    Hebjam,

    So i could put my 2940 card in the 66mhz pci slot? That wouldn't hurt video performance?
    are you sure your 2940 is 66MHz compatible?

    Regards

    Nicolas

  18. #18
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    Gosh, i dont know if the 2940u2b is 66mhz compatible or not.
    Ive been considering the Acard u160.

  19. #19
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    Thanks Nicolas,

    I didn't address that question, I had a couple U2B - they are not, and you would need to get ATTO UL3S-66 (or UL3D-66). ATTO doesn't recommend the UL4S for B&W (in fact, when I bought the UL3S-00 they didn't recommend it and said "we don't support that configuration as it doesn't support Advanced Power Management Feature.")

    With today's 10K drive featuring 89MB/sec if you get the latest, good reason to either go SATA (which does work in 66 MHz slot) or get a G4 system. I notice how slow my drives are in B&W even in 66 MHz slot compared to MDD when I installed 10.3.8.

    If I used my B&W for anything more than just email and web, as a backup system basically, I'd put the fastest 15K drive in for just the system. And if there had been G4 1.0GHz that kept the fsb at 100MHz, I wouldn't have gotten MDD (which offered RAM, fsb, and 1.25GHz that OS X really needs - things that the MacMini offers

  20. #20
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    Yea, ive been looking at the Mini but, for serious pro audio i dont think those 4200 rpm drives would cut it. Also my high end Lynx Pci audio card wouldnt fit. Doing OSX is no go for now as the Lynx is OS9 only.

    TZ,are u serious that the 1Ghz was not as fast in beige as g4-500 B&W?
    Then the G4-600 in B&W ahould smoke my Sonnet g4-700 in Beige.

    Well, i'm just waiting for the B&W now. Going to check out the Acard to see if its 66mhz.

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