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Thread: B&WG3 has destroyed my patience

  1. #1
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    Thumbs down B&WG3 has destroyed my patience

    THIS MACHINE MAY DIE AN UGLY, VIOLENT DEATH IF I CANNOT GET IT TO WORK

    Hi! New here. Just found it today from a link on Apple's "Discussion" (I use the term somewhat loosely) pages.

    Rev. 1. 350. 488 RAM. Two 12G hard drives. Sonnet 133 card to assist the herpetic IDE chip.

    All I want is for this ^@%#$@&* machine to work. This would seem to be a preposterous request. I'm tired of throwing money and time (lots of time) at it, so an upgrade of something is not gonna be heavily favored.
    I'm trying to install Panther. I have tried every conceivable aproach, including pulling the HD into another machine, low-level reformatting it, and doing a brand-spanking new install. Only to be informed that this wouldn't work, as the G3 doesn't support Quartz, yaddayaddayadda. It will not boot from the original CD drive (Matshita...note four very appropos letters in the name).

    Literally, I spend DAYS (not an exaggeration) at a time trying to get this f****r to work. If I don't get resolution on this, I'll be opting to use a DeWalt or Craftsman to install a most assuredly non-Apple supported piece of hardware.

    Can anyone help?

  2. #2
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    echohaus,

    welcome, stop a while, and perchance we can mollify you somewhat and bring your B&W into the 21st century!

    Two culprits spring to mind, and you've already settled the prime suspect's hash with the Sonnet host card, although a 12GB drive on the native IDE bus should work OK. There's no reason for Panther not to run on a B&W, I don't know who or what said "...the G3 doesn't support Quartz..." but it ain't so. Both my 300MHz iBook and my 350MHz B&W run Panther. Barring some hardware malfunction, the next thing I'd consider is your RAM. 488's a strange number, and maybe if you could run Dimm First Aid in OS9 and post the results (you can find it here if you don't already have it) we'd have a clear understanding of just what you have installed. In the meantime, maybe pull all but your biggest DIMM and try the install again. My Clamshell runs 10.3.6 with 288MB just fine. It's a little slow, but it doesn't ever fall down. B&W's are real finicky when it comes to the spec's and the quality of the installed RAM, and that's what I suggest you check next.

    biggles.
    "illegitimis non carborundum"

  3. #3
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    Sorry. Math memory suffers through cross eyes. 448 meg RAM...256, 128, and 64. AND I believe they're all Apple chips.
    All firmware updates were done to this machine a long time ago. Ran DIMM First Aid back when it came out (back in the day when it ran Jag 2.6 and 9.2.2...). Everything checked out.

    I'd be glad to run this turd in OS9; I'd be glad to run it at all, at this point...if I could get it to boot up. Won't start form the CD, won't boot existing HD; you hear the drive chatter a bit, then mute. Whole damned box just sits there.

    All accessories are disconnected...Sonnet card included. Just video card, keyboard, mouse.

    This machine was running 10.3 earlier today, but began behaving erratically again, so I said toss it and wiped the entire drive for a fresh install.
    And this is the story of my life with this thing...runs, doesn't, kinda, doesn't, runs, blahblahblah.
    The only thing consistent about this blob is its inconsistency.

  4. #4
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    have you tried all the other standard routines, like PRAM reset, Open Firmware nvram reset, cuda reset?
    "illegitimis non carborundum"

  5. #5
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    Absolutely. I have gone so far as to pull the processor, RAM, and PRAM battery out and let them sit for a day and a half.

    Should've poured a beer on 'em, fat lot it did.

  6. #6
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    Still very much need to run DIMM First Aid again. The one biggee, especially with APple RAM, was it didn't meet minimum spec and OSX won't reliably run on it if it doesn't. Sounds like a "quick" OS9 install is needed and check that RAM out to see if you have any 10 NanoSecond stuff in there. If so, chuck those modules out and start on the next issue.

    DOn't feel too bad. I have been running and building B&Ws for a while and I now have in for the fourth time one that I installed new memory, new CPU (600 MHz XLR8 G4) and all new hard drives on a host card. This stupid thing will work perfectly here for me, but when I send it home it always starts crashing. If I don't figure it out I am going back to riding horses for a living. Crummy ones since I am getting too old to be a real cowboy.

    Rick
    molṑn labe'
    "I am a mortal enemy to arbitrary government and unlimited power. I am naturally very jealous for the rights and liberties of my country, and the least encroachment of those invaluable privileges is apt to make my blood boil."
--Ben Franklin

  7. #7
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    Well, my only option for a "quick OS9 install" (never heard of that), will be to pull this HD again and put it in the MDD, since there's no booting in the B&W. Fortunately, I imaged the original 9.2.2 before I wiped the drive...so with a little luck, I could at least get it back to it's crippled self from four hours ago.

  8. #8
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    Angry

    Well, folks, I'm done. And I'm livid.

    I've removed Panther, re-installed a clean OS 9.2.2 on the drive. I had to do it on the MDD because the B&W POS won't boot. No response. Tried the image I made of the machine earlier. Nothing. Moved jumper settings around. Squat.
    It will not boot, from disk or drive.
    This hunk of s**t won't even do a PRAM reset from the keyboard. Just gives me it's "taa-daa" chime then sits there. How Windows-like.

    Hard to believe this was a flagship machine from Apple.

    Unless someone wants to buy the machine for parts (ZIP drive, RAM, processor, whatever)...well, I live by a small lake.
    I'll even videotape the funeral. I might even make a little QT video so you can watch.
    I'll give you 'til this weekend to speak up; either sure-fire solution for me or parts for you.

    What's especially sad is that I was going to update it and give it to my wife for the holidays. Had I done that, I know I'd be in divorce court.

    I've lost way too much of my already short life on this #$&*%^!.

  9. #9
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    Lightbulb

    Apple B*W Discussion area is active with a number of people who go out of their way to be helpful. We even recruited a few

    When they give advice, it is usually on the money, whether it is RAM or to use a PCI controller - such as Sonnet Tempo ATA/133. I wouldn't think of using a rev 1 ( www.xlr8yourmac.com/g3-zone/ ) without a hard drive controller. Either SCSI (Adaptec 2940, 29160, 39160; ATTO UL2D, UL3S/D; Initio Miles2), or ATA (ACard primarily), or SATA (FirmTek). And skip the native IDE bus totally. However, I would definitely replace both 12GB drives. Five years old, and probably half the problem is right there. At the least, initialize and test afterward (Test Function will map out bad blocks in Drive Setup 2.04 - don't use older versions and especially not 1.73).

    As rick said, Apple OEM RAM will cause problems and is substandard. Understand the annoyance and frustration. But without the correct RAM, you system should have been freezing couple times a week, which is not normal - and with Panther, have repeated kernel panics regularly.

    There have been ebay rev 1s that would never work no matter what.

    I have Beige MT, B&W, and MDD. But OS 9 can't be shared between any of them. The boot blocks would be wrong as well as the version of OS 9 used. OS X 10.3 maybe. How can you use the OS 9 that MDD runs on B&W? I have both. Mine won't. The MDD has its own 9.2.2+ (OS9GENERAL.DMG) image that would need to be modified before it could be used - if at all - on B&W.

    Someone had a B&W that wouldn't even boot into Open Firmware until they took care of a couple issues and first zapped the PRAM. A machine has to be able to boot into Open Firmware if it is to be bootable at all.

    It may not be worth the effort and expense. Someone mentioned getting an eMac for $599 from Apple Specials page and very happy with it. That is close to how much G4/500, RAM, controller, and probably a new hard drive would cost I suspect. $1199 for G5 1.6SP would be a nice alternative. We're hoping to see Giga 1.42DP upgrades for MDDs in the next weeks.
    Last edited by TZ; 11-23-2004 at 06:40 AM.

  10. #10
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    There are no sure-fire solutions, and your problem may be a hard fault that's not worth the time or the money to go find or fix. Or it may be something as simple as a battery. You have checked or replaced it assume? I've been chewed out for bringing that up in the past, but it hasn't been mentioned yet; it's so obvious,and easy to miss!

    Maybe the poor thing is just very confused. There's greentree-uk's famous Voodoo method of resurrecting a G4, don't know anybody who's tried it with a B&W, but here it is if you want to give it a go.
    "illegitimis non carborundum"

  11. #11
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    TZ: The OS 9 came from two sources, 1) fresh install from a disc, 2) the original image from the B&W. IOW, I restored the hard drive to it's original state. I did not try to use the same OS9 that the MDD has. Using the MDD was my only option for getting things on and off the hard drive.
    Having $1199 to spend would be a nice alternative, let alone buying a G5.
    No offense meant--'cause I know you're trying to help--but I really get annoyed with suggestions of spending a bunch more money; they always seem to roll off people's toungues like sunrise and sunset. For some reason, folks always blurt out "Go spend a thousand dollars" when it's not feasible and not within their realm to discern or assume. I've been out of work for just over a year...$1199 ain't happening.

    I don't underdstand why this machine won't even boot from a CD, or zap it's on PRAM on key command.

    biggles, the battery is NEW. One of the first things I did.

  12. #12
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    Dear echohaus,

    Quote Originally Posted by echohaus
    ...I don't underdstand why this machine won't even boot from a CD, or zap it's on PRAM on key command...
    Every computer tests three basic things on startup:
    1. Power Supply to the motherboard.
    2. The CPU.
    3. The RAM.


    If any of the above fail - other than a dead PRAM battery which you have replaced - then the system won't go any further scanning the other buses on the motherboard for devices and peripherals (including the booting HDD and CDD).

    Have you any reasons to believe you have a problem in any of the above?
    As suggested by others, have you tried booting with just the OEM 64MB RAM module in there and OS9.x CD placed inside your CD-ROM drive, holding the "C" key down?

    I guess you went through the CUDA reset stuff, haven't you?

    I am trying to find a reason for your issues. I understand your frustration, but more than ever before, you need to follow step-by-step troubleshooting procedures so as to have any chance to pin-point your problem.
    Sometimes these things turn out to be a very stupid thing.....

    Best of luck.
    Costa
    ________________________

    Ab ovo usque ad mala

  13. #13
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    Hi Echo,

    I hear ya on the money thing. Keep in mind that it may cost you several hundred to get the BW going depending on what the problem is, and there is some risk involved, it will still be an old and slow BW, and could still be finicky. I have to agree whith TZ that on paper, it makes more sense to get a newer box. If you have the money. :sad:

    My BW has hiccuped once or twice and done strange things like what you describe, but has always recovered. Once I got a scrambled video signal while trying to add a third HD to my Siig ATA controller (slave on one channel - both channels had a master HD already). Coulnd not to a PRAM restet, and it would not boot to Disk Warrior, which made me think it was hardware...

    But it wasn't. I can't tell you exactly what I did to finally get it up and running, but I do remember trying everything: PRAM, Cuda, Open Firmware reset, and pulling *everything* and starting over. And I do know that it just did not not like that slave drive...I tried several times, and each time it knocked the BW for a lulu.

    I like to start simple. Consider this:

    1) Pull everything, including memory, and hit the power button. Should get 3 beeps that indicate "no memory".

    2) With the case unplugged, push the Cuda button, wait at least 10 seconds and plug the case in.

    3) Install one stick that you think is good, and try to boot. You should get flashing ? if all is well. If no flashing ?, then repeat with your second stick of RAM.

    4) If you get the flashing ?, then it is time to add your ATA controller and an HD to boot to. See if you can install an OS.

    General notes: Seems like I had a hard time booting to the optical drive too, as if it was bad, but that problem went away too. Have to suspect that Open Firmware was confused, although I have no idea why or how this happens... Always supect memory on a BW, especially with OS X. I have watched RAM go bad on a G4; rare, but it does happen. Just because it worked last year does not prove that it is working now.

    Back to TZ's point: If you want to keep the 'ol BW working, you have to expect to do some hand holding. Nobody likes it, but that is the way it is. The only reason I still have my BW is lack of $$ too.

    Good luck.
    "Imagine if every Thursday your shoes exploded if you tied them the usual way. This happens to us all the time with computers, and nobody thinks of complaining." -- Jef Raskin

  14. #14
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    Lightbulb

    I replace disk drives 'regularly' and I know from experience and talking to people that a 5 yr old ATA drive is ready for that.

    The RAM - once booted - we want to remove anything that says it is 10 nanosecond PC100 based on DIMM First Aid's output.

    I would try without the Sonnet and use just one of the 12GB drives attached to native IDE bus. Making sure that a) the cable is good (even borrow one from the MDD - I don't use ATA there either anymore). That the jumper is still set properly (or even use CS).

    The OEM drives were incapable of more than 15MB/sec (if that) and worked. It was only when you used drives faster than 20-24MB/sec that you ran into data corruption. In the BW Help area is a link to the utility to test for data corruption - or you can find it in the G3-Zone mentioned earlier.

    Even the jumpers and pins can 'go bad' on ATA drive, as well as cable. Sitting here I get to stretch my imagination sometimes - question everything, accept nothing -- be paranoid, very paranoid sometimes.

    Reseating RAM and PCI cards. Swapping video cards and slots. Using an eraser on RAM contacts. Testing the Tempo in the MDD. Updating its firmware if necessary. Video cable. And get the Open Firmware screen to show. There HAS to be a little gremlin crawling around inside.

  15. #15
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    All the work I did yesterday was with one drive on the native buss, no Sonnet card (I took that out long ago). Have not tried the RAM reduction yet.

    UncleMac, I got the three beeps a couple of days ago...with the RAM in.

    Jumpers are new, cables are new (bought those when I got the Sonnet card).

    What's REALLY steaming my grumpus is that I don't even want to keep this machine anymore...I just wanted to get it up and running and trade it in (with some other stuff) on a newer, used box. It's like no matter what I do, the machine is finding a way to reduce my return and hamper my ability to make progress. Since my wife doesn't need a machine for much other than Appleworks, email, and the iPod mini she's about to get for Christmas , one of the options I had originally hoped to have was to restore this box and add a monitor for her. Otherwise, I'd've been happy with having it run, and trading it in.

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    Lightbulb

    Troubleshooting software and hardware macosxhints 20 top troubleshooting ideas. Usually I fancy up all the links. They are in the FAQ & Help, but these are the ones I think most useful: http://www.macgurus.com/forums/showthread.php?p=68114 http://www.macgurus.com/forums/showthread.php?t=19240 http://docs.info.apple.com/article.html?artnum=106464 http://discussions.info.apple.com/we...MX.1@.6891bd20 http://docs.info.apple.com/article.html?artnum=25392 http://developer.apple.com/documenta...tup/index.html If all you wanted was to get it running and trade it in... I would never include my disk drives, and just get an $40 ATA drive.
    Last edited by TZ; 11-23-2004 at 03:38 PM.

  17. #17
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    Are both those drives ATA drives?
    Damien,

  18. #18
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    Yeah. Seagate Fireball EX and IBM DTTA/25L2702.

    Interested in saving them from a watery grave?

  19. #19
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    Hey...just noticed you're from Indiana.

    I'm a native Hoosier.

  20. #20
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    Alright...

    I pulled all RAM, the processor, and cards yesterday, let them sit overnight.

    About 20 minutes ago, I stuck the 256 chip in, the processor, and the video card. I grabbed the OTHER hard drive--the IBM--and hooked it to the native IDE, set for cable select. I pput a 9.2.1 full install disc in the drive, and booted up to the CD. Installed 9.2.1.

    Almost immediately, this computer has sensed that I caught it off guard, and began s******g on my ZIP drive; I tried to load a 9.2.2 updater from a ZIP drive--first external, then the internal--and in both cases, the cartridge got stuck inside, requiring a paper clip and more than one reboot.

    I gave up on the ZIP thing, and went back to getting Panther on there. I put the Panther 1 disc in, and selected "Install", whereby, of course, it would reboot into the new disc.

    Got the grey screen, an Apple, a throbber....and NOTHING. Monitor went to sleep, and the computer is just sitting there.

    Do I get the shotgun now?

    Is it possible to hook a network cable between these two, put the Panther disc in the MDD, and boot the POS from the disc in MDD?

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