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Thread: This 'upgrade' is getting me down

  1. #21
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    Not the first time. Remember, even Sonnet G4/700s in OldWorld along with Radeon and even Sonnet Tempo or Tango would not get along. part of that was too little boot RAM and too many (Open) Firmware controllers. Even video cards on Mac have to have and be OF compliant. I think the 9200 is aimed at B&W and later. Not OldWorld pre machines, even if that is the larger market.

    Sometimes the microkernel or OS can patch the BIOS and Open Firmware on startup (if it starts up of course), and even patch those ROMs, which is how Apple added slave support to Beige, by building "virtual ROM" - which is what Jaguar does, and writes that to nvram and boot blocks, and why I boot from Jaguar when things head south. That could mean that Panther on Beige can depend on Jaguar being available.

    There were times I would feel confident, get cocky, and try a different PCI card, often SCSI (ATTO or Adaptec). Changing PCI cards requires a new device tree and can corrupt nvram (and nvram would need to be modified). NewWorld Macs are much more forgiving, not so with our Beige.

  2. #22
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    Well, then I’m going to have to make a decision here. I’ve got this desktop Beige G3 with a G4/1GHz upgrade card, a Sonnet Tempo Trio PCI card, an ixTV card & 768 MB of RAM. What would be the best & safest way to go about installing the new ATI Radean 9200 card on this machine? Any more input into this matter would be appreciated, even if it’s to say that’s it’s not advisable.

    I’ve got OS 9.2.2, 10.2.8 & 10.3.5 all on their own partitions. To minimize any chance of failure, I’m even prepared to remove the 8 GB 5400 RPM drive on which I have Panther & not use it on this machine, since I have Jaguar on a 7200 RPM drive that seems to run fast enough for my purposes. I’ve got Panther on other machines (TiBook/1GHz), so it’s not like I’d be giving up a lot. I’d just rather be safe than sorry.

  3. #23
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    Having two versions of OS X on same drive isn't always good setup. Drives, yes. But Jag and Panther on one drive, no.

    Radeon Mac would work. Or Rage 128. Or PC Radeon that flashes and works, and wait on the new card for updates.

    The Trio is an ideal card even if that is a lot to ask of one PCI card.

    Panther should be fine. Just booting from jag can work when in trouble. I'd ditch 10.2.x anyway. In the end, it is all just experimental. I can see why G4/1000 would make even poor code like Jaguar run "acceptable" but Jag was buggy.

  4. #24
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    LVX,

    My take on it right now is that there is a real risk of Open Firmware problems with the 9200 in OS 9. The ATI web site indicates that if you have a G3 with a supported OS that's all you need. Maybe they are coming to that conclusion based on a G3 with a different PCI configuration than I have but, it doesn't work for me with a SeriTek, Tango and 9200 Raedon. It will work with the Older Radeon Mac Edition.

    The problem here is probably that the OF device tree instructions conflict with this set of PCI cards. There may be some other hijinks going on as well, that has to do with the default instructions in this version of Open Firmware. It could be the SeriTek, it is known to claim a good sized chunk of bandwidth, then again it could be the Tango which you have, or maybe its when you have all three together.

    I don't know what you got in your box, but ATI didn't help by sending the wrong instruction book. (Radeon 9800). Not that it would have covered a problem like this, but one solution that I didn't try was to load the OS9 drivers BEFORE I stuck the card in. I think I'll try that this evening. First with all the cards pulled except the 9200. If that works, then add cards back and see if I get sent back into hell.

    I'll post later, whatever happens, unless I get electrocuted.

  5. #25
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    TZ, I don't have 2 versions of OS X on the same drive. I've got Panther on an 8 GB drive, and Jaguar on the 1st 8 GBs of an 140 GB Maxtor with OS 9.2.2 on another partition of the Maxtor. One of the reasons I got the ATI Radeon 9200 card is that the (flashed) Radeon 7000 card I’m using doesn’t render certain visuals properly, like getting blurred images with custom icons. I’ll report my results here after I install the new ATI Radeon 9200.

  6. #26
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    Well,

    The good news is that the Tango doesn't seem to make any difference. The bad news is that it won't boot into OS 9.2.2. That means that it is either the SeriTek card conflicting, or something else that I don't know about.

    Here's what I did:

    1) While I had the older Mac Edition card in I ran the ATI CD and installed the 9200 software in 10.3.5. Restart with the index key down and went into 9.2.2 and installed the OS 9 ATI software.

    2) With XPostFacto, when you boot into 9 by holding down the Option key from a Contol, Cmd, Power button restart, and then you restart from OS 9 without holding anything down, the unit boots back into OS X with XPF still operational. But to be safe I booted back into OS X from XPF, and powered down.

    3) Removed the Tango and Old Mac Ed, put in the 9200. Hit the power key. Since video was directed by XPF to go to the Old Mac Ed, The screen did not come to life until after the ATI kexts were loaded and running. After that, screen came up as normal.

    4) Opened XPF went to Options and OF output selection and chose the 9200. Guess what name Open FIrmware uses for it? ATY Bugsy! Ha! I'll buy that.

    5) Rebooted back to OSX with ATY Bugsy as the chosen output and in verbose mode. The screen came up as it normally would. I did note that verbose indicated that the ob-board ATI Mach 64, 3D was "not useable." First time I've seen that kind of language in verbose.

    6) After booting up in X, I then went to OS 9 with the method described above in hopes that if it would not load 9, I could restart with the XPF firmware instructions in tack. I would not load 9, hung at the same place, The smiley mac. Rebooted without the Option key and it did go back to X which loaded normally.

    7) Powered down and put the Tango back in. No difference.


    For what they are worth (not much) I did some benchmarking to compare the two cards.

    XBench results for the 9200:

    Quartz Graphics Test 69.06
    Line 50.30 1.28 Klines/sec [50% alpha]
    Rectangle 68.24 4.80 Krects/sec [50% alpha]
    Circle 72.03 1.66 Kcircles/sec [50% alpha]
    Bezier 56.11 609.65 beziers/sec [50% alpha]
    Text 162.25 2.64 Kchars/sec
    OpenGL Graphics Test 51.94
    Spinning Squares 51.94 36.35 frames/sec
    User Interface Test 123.72
    Elements 123.72 39.80 refresh/sec


    XBench results for the Old Mac Ed:



    Quartz Graphics Test 63.42
    Line 51.89 1.32 Klines/sec [50% alpha]
    Rectangle 44.50 3.13 Krects/sec [50% alpha]
    Circle 53.41 1.23 Kcircles/sec [50% alpha]
    Bezier 86.41 938.92 beziers/sec [50% alpha]
    Text 147.19 2.40 Kchars/sec
    OpenGL Graphics Test 39.36
    Spinning Squares 39.36 27.54 frames/sec
    User Interface Test 82.15
    Elements 82.15 26.42 refresh/sec


    There's not a lot of difference here. For the trouble it brings.

    Another thing, I did note at the ATI site, they were indicating that on the Digital Audio and the Gigabit Ethernet, OS 9 was not supported. Of course, they presumed we would not be interested in why not. Nothing is said about that. I wonder though, if there is a processor problem. The Sonnet G4 Encore is a 7455 G4 chip, not sure which G4 chip the DA and GE, but I think it was a 7455.

    I'll put the Old Mac Ed back in and wait for a better place for the 9200.

    Later

  7. #27
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    I wonder if it has more to do with ATI Mach 64 than anything? There are a number of users like you and using 9200 on XPF forum.macsales.com which might be of more help. I would also direct you to www.xlr8yourmac.com and the bbs there and threads on ATI 4.4, ROM update, and 9200. As well as reader feedback. ATI has some folks that drop in and while registration is closed, you might want to check out those threads.

  8. #28
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    I spent a good deal of time last couple of days looking over Xlr8yourmac.com and the OWC OSX tech forum in response to TZ’s information. It interesting the number and type of video problems folks have had with the legacy macs and the Beige G3s. Getting down to problems specifically with the Radeon 9200, although there were few Beige and older macs with commentary, many of the posts at XYM were reports of screen artifacts on later models that appears to have been helped considerably by the ATI ROM update 4.4 which one can find here:

    http://www.ati.com/support/drivers/m...msept2004.html


    What is nifty about this update is that it also includes prior ROM versions so that you can go backwards or forwards to see if there is one that fits your set-up better. I did read some posts at XPF Tech on folks who chose the wrong update (wrong card type) to run and seriously fowled up the card. Caution is advised.

    By the way, as TZ has told us, repeatedly, it is quite clear from many sources that Xbench is a very poor measure of video card performance. I don’t seem to be able to find one that is.

    At the XpostFacto Tech site I did find one fella posting the exact same problem as I have described, regarding the inability to boot into OS 9, but he did not follow up with a solution. He and I are not alone, e.g.,

    http://www.applefritter.com/node/view/4681

    but, as of yet, I don’t think there has been enough reports for a common factor to leap to the fore.

    It’s not surprising that a number of us hotroddin' XPF users are jacking up the Radeon PCI performance with this little program:

    http://thomas.perrier.name/software/...leratorII.html


    Saw one post where a guy “fried” more than the card in his iBook with it. Looks too risky for me.


    I did see several posts regarding the effectiveness and ineffectiveness of PCI Extreme, which is a program you can find here:

    http://pages.cthome.net/zacks/index2.html

    Used to enable Quartz Extreme on ATI cards, both AGP and PCI even though the tag is for PCI Extreme. You can check whether the monitor is, in fact, Quartz accelerated with this:

    http://www.entropy.ch/software/macos...tzextremecheck

    There were several reports of it not only failing to improve Quartz performance but actually reducing it. The download does contain a “remove” program - if you can still see to use it.



    I went to the ATI site to see if they had a manual on the 9200 PCI. They do, in pdf, and you can find that here:

    http://atitechnologies.com/support/m...x=9&submit.y=5

    ATI does not hold out, in the manual, that the card will function at all in OS 9! The OS “requirements” are said to be 10.2.8 or 10.3.3 or higher. Nothing about OS 9. It is clear that the card will work in 9, and drivers for OS9 (has to be 9.2 ) are included on the install CD with the card. Some retailers are holding it out as functioning in lower OS’s as can be seen here:

    http://eshop.macsales.com/Catalog_It...m=ATI100436011

    It did work for me when I booted to the OS 9.1 CD, but that is “worked” in the sense of provided ability to view the desktop, as opposed to “worked” in the sense of actually being able to perform the features which would be sought in purchasing the card. I doubt the latter. The install CD will not allow you to install the OS9 drivers unless you are in 9.2. That's what makes this kind of "holding out" a problem. In my humble opinion.

    It is also clear from posts at XPF Tech that the 9200 is working for others. The card performs well in OSX 10.3.5. I don’t doubt that. Only a few reported that it also worked as well in OS 9, but some did. The problem, i.e., not being able to boot into 9.2., does not appear to be pandemic.

    At this point, I still think the better idea that there is some “interaction” between the 9200 and another card in the PCI bus. Either that or there is an interaction between the card and the on-board video of the G3. What I don’t see is why that would not be an across-the-board problem, rather than only appearing when trying to boot 9. The wild card I guess is XpostFacto which provides specific OF instructions to output to “ATY Bugsy.”

  9. #29
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    You might try "OpenMark" to help on graphics testing. http://www.macgamefiles.com/detail.php?item=18219 or the Google Search

  10. #30
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    Booting is controlled by Open Firmware. OS X overrides the Beige ROM and patches what gets loaded. It is normal for an OS to patch the BIOS or microcode or microkernel to do things like 'fix' a PCI bug or issue. The "ROM in RAM" or "virtual ROM" as I like to call it is not new or unique even. NewWorld "ROM" was designed with OS X in mind I suspect. Off-hand I can't point to what programs to use to benchtest but I think Mike Breeden would have a list or you could find what others have used. CineBench would be one. Some games have a method to let you run different test config and use their own ".ini" program file settings. i would query Sonnet about G4/1GHz and Radeon 9200 as potential conflicting. The G4/700 non-ZIF cards for 7/8/9xxx series PMac from Sonnet required some revisions to get their firmware on the daughter card to get along. Early adopters are the last line in the beta test cycle I fear. Witness the questions arising over the iMac G5s now with noise from PSU, clicking, RAM compatibility and such, or G5 firmware updates.

  11. #31
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    Thanks, I will do that.

    Incidently, spending a chunk of time in another forum, I can safely say:


    The Gurus

    Happy to be able to tune in.


    Later

  12. #32
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    Cinebench is a freebe here:

    http://www.maxon.net/jumps/cinebench.html

    There's a beta for G5 as well.

  13. #33
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    Woo hoo! I just installed the new ATI Radeon 9200 card today & so far it seems to have been a complete success. I started off by installing ATI ROM Update 4.4 in Jaguar, turning off my Mac & installing the PCI card. It then booted right up in Jaguar w/o a problem. Next I installed the OS 9 drivers on a back-up drive, rebooted & was met by a black screen. After closely following Wizzard501's experience with the Radeon 9200, the suspense in the room was so thick you could cut it with a knife! Yet eventually the Extensions slowly began to load, but my system hung up just as the last Extension loaded. However, after zapping the PRAM using TechTool, my system booted into OS 9.2.2 w/o a glitch. Then I installed the drivers on my main OS 9.2.2 partition, rebooted & was meet by the same problem with the system hanging up after the last Extension loaded. After I reset the PRAM using TechTool, it then successfully booted up to the desktop like it did on the 1st test partition. (Interestingly enough, the keyboard method of resetting the PRAM didn't do the the trick, but using TechTool did. This is not the 1st time that using TechTool to zap the PRAM has succeeded in fixing a problem where the keyboard method failed for me.)

    Anyway, when I used XPostFacto to boot into Panther I had no problem at all. I installed the ATI ROM Update 4.4 driver, rebooted & everything seems to be fine with the black cat. As a result of installing the new Radeon 9200 card, I'm getting none of the display problems that I was having with my flashed Radeon 7000 card. All images with customs icons are rendered properly, and certain other visual anomalies that I had experienced have been totally corrected. For that reason alone, this video card upgrade has been entirely worth it.

    FWIW, here are the before & after benchmarks I got running Xbench:

    Before:
    Quartz Graphics Test 53.72
    Line 42.00 1.07 Klines/sec [50% alpha]
    Rectangle 46.62 3.28 Krects/sec [50% alpha]
    Circle 47.12 1.09 Kcircles/sec [50% alpha]
    Bezier 69.88 759.27 beziers/sec [50% alpha]
    Text 81.45 1.33 Kchars/sec
    OpenGL Graphics Test 105.16
    Spinning Squares 105.16 73.59 frames/sec

    After:
    Quartz Graphics Test 55.91
    Line 44.22 1.13 Klines/sec [50% alpha]
    Rectangle 46.72 3.29 Krects/sec [50% alpha]
    Circle 49.36 1.14 Kcircles/sec [50% alpha]
    Bezier 73.57 799.42 beziers/sec [50% alpha]
    Text 86.48 1.41 Kchars/sec
    OpenGL Graphics Test 35.24
    Spinning Squares 35.24 24.66 frames/sec

    Notice the lower scores I got for the OpenGL Graphics Tests after I installed the Radeon 9200 card. I'm presuming that lower is not better for this particular test. As such, does this represent an anomaly of some kind, or does it perhaps indicate a certain 'unreliability' in the overall Xbench test results?

  14. #34
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    Inability in Xbench. Try Cinebench tagged below. Glad to see that you got it going and benefited from by fracas.

  15. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by LVX
    Woo hoo! I just installed the new ATI Radeon 9200 card today & so far it seems to have been a complete success. I started off by installing ATI ROM Update 4.4 in Jaguar, turning off my Mac & installing the PCI card.
    Ah, what you did was update the ROM for your existing Radeon if you had one.

  16. #36
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    The ATI 9200 installs and fucntions without problem (so far) in a B&W G3. Boots into OS 9.2 with none of the Beige behavior. No special procedures needed, except for the routeen permissions repair after installing software. PCI empty except for the card, i.e., using the internal ATA, so PCI conflicts still possible.

    Booting into OS 9 prior to running the CD software appears to result in an extentions conflict. Lock up shortly after desktop appears. The software should be installed before the card.

    Since the ROM update updates the card - it must be present for that to happen.

  17. #37
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    Default Dčjá vu all over again

    Wizzard501,

    Glad to hear that it worked out well for you with the B&W. However, speaking of updating the ROM on Radeon video card(s), I installed my flashed Radeon 7000 on another Beige G3 & experienced none of the visual problems that I was having before on the other computer; until, that is, I installed the latest ROM update(s) from the ATI Web site. Now I'm getting the same kind of visual anomalies that I was getting before! So my question is, how do I go about returning to the original condition that existed prior to the update?

  18. #38
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    Hi LVX

    Bummer.

    I don't have a 7000 but I'd try this:

    The recent ROM ATI package under Custom Intall will show several different cards and options. It comes defaulted to the recent rom. Uncheck "easy install" and select the earliest one for the 7000. Seems like there were 4 options. One is probably what you had on there to begin with.

    Hope you get it back like it wuz.

  19. #39
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    Thanks for the suggestion, Wizzard501. Yeah, I actually did try a custom install, checking the options to install only the latest PCI drivers. Unfortunately, it didn’t seem to charge or modify the situation in any way. What I’ll probably end up doing is put the video card in yet another Mac, being careful NOT to install the ROM updates. I suspect that the issue here has something to do with this being a ‘flashed’ Radeon 7000 card.

  20. #40
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    Yeah, I've heard that the flashed ones can be a problem. You can get some pretty good Cinebench numbers with one of those older Mac Edition. OpenMark, indicated below is pretty cool too for OpenGL.

    But you have to hang around on E-bay for one of those older ones to come up. I've had really problem free use from the two that I have.

    Well . . if you've tried the earlier roms and didn't get anything then . . . it may be the "flashed" aspect of the thing that is at the root of the problem.

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