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Thread: This 'upgrade' is getting me down

  1. #1
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    Default This 'upgrade' is getting me down

    I recently picked up a used beige AIO G3/233 & it booted up right away & seemed to work just fine. Until, that is, I attemped to upgrade the processor & add more RAM. After replacing the processor card with a G3/800 ZIF & adding 2 new pieces of RAM, all I got when I booted up was a blank white screen, although I did get a normal start-up chime. So I removed the processor & replaced it with the original ZIF & jumper block, and returned to the original RAM allotment. However, all I continue to get is a blank white screen. I pressed the CUDA switch while I was doing the upgrade & made sure all the cables involved were securely fastened. Does anyone have any ideas as to what the problem could be in this case? I'm still getting a boot-up chime, but that's about it. I see no flashing question mark or anything else, just a blank white screen.

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    Lightbulb

    Just to be sure and not duplicate, there is an almost identical thread discussion on Apple Beige forum. (In fact, there is similar story repeated almost every week or day on the subject

    Do one upgrade step at a time. Be sure to not mix RAM, and to use RAM that is the correct type for Beige (MacGurus RAM is), or if buying from Crucial, use RAM recommended for Yosemite system.

    A is first line of defense -
    DIMM First Aid

    Apple User Tips

    Beige hardware:
    Understanding RAM etc
    The upgrades for Beige and B&W are quite similar:
    Upgrade Path


    OS X won't boot

    Panther Tips

    Using OS X

    http://discussions.info.apple.com/we...Tipsfrom users

    Reset NVRAM/PRAM
    - the command for Beige to reset-nvram is init-nvram

    Have you read through the CPU Upgrade Reader reports DB?
    http://forums.xlr8yourmac.com/cpureview.lasso
    - did the G3/800 work or do you need to be talking to PowerLogix?
    Last edited by TZ; 09-25-2004 at 12:56 PM.

  3. #3
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    Confused (Try again)

    Just to be sure and not duplicate, there is an almost identical thread discussion on Apple Beige forum. (In fact, there is similar story repeated almost every week or day on the subject

    Do one upgrade step at a time. Be sure to not mix RAM, and to use RAM that is the correct type for Beige (MacGurus RAM is), or if buying from Crucial, use RAM recommended for Yosemite system.

    A is first line of defense -
    DIMM First Aid
    Apple User Tips
    Beige: Understanding RAM etc

    The upgrades for Beige and B&W are quite similar: Upgrade Path
    OS X won't boot
    Panther Tips
    Using OS X
    Tips from users
    Reset NVRAM/PRAM
    - the command for Beige to reset-nvram is init-nvram

    Have you read through the CPU Upgrade Reader reports DB?
    http://forums.xlr8yourmac.com/cpureview.lasso
    - did the G3/800 work or do you need to be talking to PowerLogix?

    ===================

    You can just follow the URL link to Help & FAQ to any of the above links and messages.

    PS: I'm having a lot of trouble with URLs and UUB right now on the forum... seems to be FireFox maybe issue, as Safari is working - but why and why now? was fine yesterday I'm pretty sure...
    Last edited by TZ; 09-25-2004 at 06:31 AM.

  4. #4
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    Default Re: This 'upgrade' is getting me down.

    Well, there's been a hopeful development, I think. I took the PRAM battery out & let it set for a good long while. After I put the battery back in & tried to boot up I got a flashing question mark. So I went back in & made sure all the ATA cables were securely fastened & they were. Not only is it still not booting up without the question mark, but I can't open the CD-R drive when I push the button in the front either. At least I've gotten beyond the blank white screen, but now I'm stuck with the question mark. What else could be going wrong here? Could the problem now be with the motherboard? The computer was working fine just last night before I attempted the upgrade.

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    The "?" means that you need to use Startup Disk to set (in nvram) the default boot drive. Which must have a blessed system.

    Does the OPTION key on startup show you bootable partitions?
    If you can't open CDR you can't boot from CD I take it.
    Is this a "supported" or OEM Combo drive or what and what model?

    Doing an upgrade can reset nvram or corrupt nvram.

    Would that you could boot from Disk Warrior CD or Panther CDs.

  6. #6
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    Default Re: This 'upgrade' is getting me down

    The CD-R drive is a supported PlexWriter (16/10/40) that was working fine before all the trouble started. So I can't boot from a CD (DiskWarrior) if the drive won't open. If I do have corrupted nvram, what is the step-by-step procedure to remedy the problem? I didn't follow the indications that you were giving before.

    There's one bootable partition with OS 9.2.2 on it. The other partition is on the 1st 8 GB of a 20 GB Maxtor drive. It's currently empty & I was planning on cloning Panther to it directly; once I get the chance, that is.

    I'll try holding down the option key & see what it tells me. Thanks for all your input, TZ. I'm doing all this at work as sort of a gift to my emplorer & was hoping to have his 'new' system up & running for when he comes in on Monday.

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    Lightbulb

    Some times forum help is same set of steps, therefore it is easier to link to a thread etc. Prevents errors, can be improved, and less typing (hopefully, if you've ever not been able to type or write for a couple years, you appreciate being able to all the more).

    The link to NVRAM/PRAM - booting into Open Firmware by holding down all four keys: Command + Option + OF, then three commands entered as -

    init-nvram
    set-defaults
    reset-all

    That will clear nvram. Try it. I find it essential to get a Beige back. Also, if you have Jaguar and you can get CD working, hold down C and boot from it - it does some good things just booting from it (it will do a "double boot" so don't worry when it starts first time, then does an auto-restart on its own).

    I forgot you are on Beige. The Option key should look for and try to boot OS 9 if it can find it. If the boot blocks are damaged, no-go with anything often, not even booting from a CD. Only way to then is to disconnect the hard drive and try.

    I prefer Pioneer A106 or later, or OWC has some real Apple OEM units now, for CD/DVD.

    There are a set of links to Beige G3 and OS X Troubleshooting and other sites with step-by-step to install OS X. If you format your hard drive with OS X (Jag or Panther) you can move it back and forth between native IDE bus and PCI ACard type controller which is useful - and avoid the 8GB "rule" if you use ACard.

    Might even use TechTool Lite to clear PRAM. And XPostFacto to install Panther is essential but easier usually than running and installing Jaguar (but nothing is 100% one way or error free for everyone).

    A real gift would be a Mac that natively supports OS X and doesn't require learning curve and jumping through hoops, or an incantation for luck in your endeavor.

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    Lightbulb

    PS: still no word on the RAM and DIMM First Aid.

    On G3/800, weren't there a lot of problems and returns? Even now there doesn't seem to be any on www.powerlogix.com and is a discontinued product.

    If it was mine, I would either use Gurus Daystar G4/600 or Sonnet G4/800 or G4/1000. Along with our PC133 SDRAM for Beige-Yosemite-Yikes system.

    - because they are top quality. (and my time here is volunteer, no monetary gain from what you do or don't do)

    PPS: the Beige OldWorld Open Firmware 2.1 doesn't know reset-nvram command but for some reason does respond to init-nvram which I've never seen documented - just "is."

  9. #9
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    Apparently this computer doesn't support Open Firmware as I can't get to it by pressing 'Cmd. + Option' with OF. All I get is a black screen or the '?', depending on just when I hold down the keys. I've reset the PRAM several times by pressing 'Cmd. + Option' with PR, but to no avail - the '?' lingers.

    I've upgraded the processor on quite a number of beige G3s & have never run into this kind of a cul-de-sac. Has this beige reached the point of no return?
    I just traded a Newton MessagePad 2000 that I wasn't using for this old clunker, just to save on a few inches of desk space!

    TZ, are you saying that if I format a hard drive with Jaguar or Panther & use it with an A-Card/66, then I won't have to abide by the 8 GB rule?

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    It supports it. It couldn't boot otherwise. OF is the BIOS of Macs.
    When you have time, there are links to OF and BootX and Open Firmware Group of which Sun and Apple are members.

    Unplug. remove batter. Do cuda reset for more than 30 seconds. let sit over night. then try to boot up first, before connecting to wall current or even having battery in.

    Have an OS 9.1 CD available as well as Jaguar.

    Yes, a PCI controller (ACard) does let you use any size. If you have to do it in OS 9, make sure you have Drive Setup 2.07 for best results.

    And you might try disconnecting the disk drive for now until it boots from CD. That is something we see.

    Don't skip over or gloss over. Sorry this one is so hard. But have to ask: have you done a number of BEIGE G3 upgrades also in the past? assume so - but they are unique and hard(er) which is why NewWorld B&W or later are so much nicer and easier to deal with. I gave up at one point and just jumped to get G4 MDD for $1000.

  11. #11
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    Hi guys,

    There is a change that the firmware has been locked (password protected), as some schools do that. But it should ask for a password if that is the case AFAIK, so I really doubt that is an issue.

    Be sure to get on the buttons really fast, otherwise nothing will happen if you are too late. I usually hold down two with one hand when I hit the power button, so I only have to navigate one hand.
    "Imagine if every Thursday your shoes exploded if you tied them the usual way. This happens to us all the time with computers, and nobody thinks of complaining." -- Jef Raskin

  12. #12
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    After numerous tries to get to Open Firmware, I still haven't been able to reach the screen, no matter how fast I am on the draw. I've even tried booting from an external Firewire drive, but still get just the flashing '?' mark. And this included trying to boot with the Option key held down to try & locate a bootable OS 9 partition. I also tried pressing 'Cmd.-Option-Shift-Delete' to try & force it to boot from an alternate startup disk, but to no avail.

    I've re-installed the original G3/233 ZIF & jumper block, along with re-installing the RAM to its original allotment. Nothing seems to work. So I've disconnected the battery & the hard drive, and am letting it sit overnight.

    I also checked the seating on all the RAM, PCI cards, ROM module, et cetera. Would it matter at all if this had a Rev. A ROM module? I know they could be problematic in certain cases. I don't know if it is because I haven't been able to get to the Apple System Profiler. BTW, I pulled the hard drive to see if I could then boot from the CD-R drive but that didn't work either.

    TZ, yes, I've done several beige G3 upgrades as well as a handful of pre-G3 --> G3 upgrades & I haven't run into anything like this before. This is actually the 1st beige AIO G3 that I've worked on, FWIW. I just hope that I don't have to scrap this clunker for parts, because it's not going to be all that easy to recycle.

  13. #13
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    Important: If you reset the PRAM or Open Firmware, you need to reselect your startup device prior to resetting the Open Firmware Password.

    Warning: The Open Firmware Password can be reset and changed by any one of the following:

    1. By any administrator user, as designated in the Accounts preferences (or in Server Admin).
    2. Via physical access to the inside of the computer.
    3. When the computer is started up in Mac OS 9.
    Seeing how RAM configuration has been changed, the battery removed, it should boot into Open Firmware, though the inability to boot to CD or enter OF sounds like the machine was password protected when bought.

  14. #14
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    Default How about the battery?

    LVX,

    The only progress you've reported so far was after you'd pulled and re-installed the battery. Maybe try a new one?

    biggles.
    "illegitimis non carborundum"

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    Alas, I did replace the PRAM battery while troubleshooting this, but it didn't seem affect things one way or another. I hate to say it, but this upgrade project has reached the point of no return. Just last evening I took a bike ride over to where I work to see if letting the computer sit overnight with the battery & hard drive unconnected overnight made any difference. Well, I connected everything up, powered it on & was met with the flashing '?' mark.

    Still unable to boot into Open Firmware, I called it quits. I pilled the CD-R drive, ZIP drive module & 20 GB hard drive. I then took out a 128 MB module & a 4 MB VRAM chip & put it in the G3 desktop Mac there that I was intending to replace with the AIO G3 to give my boss a little more desk space. From my point of view, I'm just happy to have the extra parts to compensate me for the time & energy I put into this. I'll probably pass on what's left of the AIO G3/233 + 32 MB of RAM to the 1st person on Craig's List to give me $20. You can't win them all, but nothing ventured, nothing gained.

  16. #16
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    I've had this very problem, I think. A few days ago I got hold of a Radeon 9200 PCI, the new one, and thought it would be a worthwhile addition to the Beige G3. I'm running 10.3.5 with XPostFacto. 750GX, SeriTek with 160MB Segate SATA, Tango and had a Radeon Mac Edition, the old one, that was working fine.

    When I first stuck it in there, it booted right up to X. Now, XPF contains a set of Open Firmware instructions as part of its boot process and one of those was "output to the Radeon Mac Edition." I guess these two cards were enough alike that the 9200 worked.

    I ran the Quartz and Open GL part of Xbench for some indication of improvement, but was a little disapointed in that it was about 10 points overall. I would have thought that the difference between 32MB and 128MB on the Radeon would have boosted it up a bit more.

    Then I got the notion to see what it was like in OS 9. Blew the Frimware right out. OS 9 hung at the smilely face, the firmware instructions in XPF were blown so couldn't boot back to X. Got out the OS 9.1 CD and made it into 9.1, but XPF does not boot to a disk out of an OS 9 CD, and OS9.2 on the internal HD still hung. Then I tried to boot to a Jag CD. That caused the video to go black - just an instant of life and then off. Went from a cool little hot rod to pile of junk on the side of the road in about 10 minutes.

    I tried the open firmware start-up comand, holding down the Cmd, Opt, O and F but the black screen kept you from seeing it. I tried a few times putting in the instructions on the faith that OF was running, but I just couldn't see it. Nada.

    At that point, I started pulling cards. Hooked up an old Multiple Scan to the internal video. Nada. Pulled all cards. Wound up disconnecting all disks, including the CD and hooking up an old Apple External HD with 9.2 on it. (Remeber those old Beige HDs with the rubber feet that got lost so easy?) Pulled the ram and powered up, got the Spat! Pressed Cuda for 35 Sec. It was at that point that I could get Open Firmware to show up on the multi scan. After the reset it booted to the old HD. Then I added stuff back in one at a time. Hell of a lot of work. Bummer.

    I know the card will work in the unit because it booted to 10.3.5 on the first go. Not sure how to get it to work in OS9.
    Last edited by Wizzard501; 09-27-2004 at 11:16 PM. Reason: typo

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    Yikes! Thanks for the timely post. As it is, I've got an ATI Radeon 9200 PCI card sitting Ďunopenedí in a box in the next room which I just got in the mail yesterday. I was planning on installing it on a desktop beige G3 --> G4/1GHz with a flashed 64 MB Radean card that I use with OS 9 most of the time, although it does run well enough with both Jaguar & Panther. I still prefer OS 9 on this machine though because it seems to run so much faster.

    After what I went through last weekend with the AIO, Iím definitely going to sit back & wait until some more reports come in. I donít need to get into the habit of playing dice with my computers. My research with the AIO G3 left me with a lot of unanswered questions as nothing quite like that has ever happened to me while attempting an upgrade before; such as why was the whole CD-R drive mechanism became inaccessible after the Firmware went bad, if that is indeed what happened.

  18. #18
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    The CD on this unit worked until I tired to boot Jag in it. Got the question mark disk, a restart, then it went black and would not boot the CD with anything in it, or any other disk. Video output gone. P-ram zaps and Cuda resets alone would not budge it. That's as near plumb dead as I've ever seen it. The CD is a DVR-107 on the IDE bus. Not sure if it would have been different if the OEM CD-rom had been in there.

    What's puzzeling is that Open Firmware (OF) has got to be in there. It's in the BIOS, it ain't got choices. I would have guessed that once the offending card (the 9200) was pulled it would at least recognize the OEM video set up. It didn't. It's OF2.4, I think. Pretty old, and seems like I read once that when OF does not recognize a video output device, which is obviously what got zaped here, it puts it out the modem port at 9600 Baud. I couldn't find anything at Apple Support on it, but I think there is something I read there once.

    How one would rig up another computer to see the modem output of OF, I'm not sure. I don't know of a way of changing OF that would survive an event like this.

    Now that I know a way out, I may try to get it back in with 10.3.5. This unit does not have to have OS9. (I think the Sonnet upgrade requires it, neces't pas?) When I can't see a way out, my actions get motivated more by desparation than logic. The Beige G3 is a good teacher in that regard. Best not to have a deadline hanging over it. I'll have to wait a bit though to loose the feeling that the attempt would be a self-inflicted wound.

    Need to find out more about OF 2.4 and see if there are some more options there.

  19. #19
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    Lightbulb

    The Jaguar CD will modify the BIOS (Open Firmware, which is 2.0x) - which is usually a good thing and helps set up the Beige to work better and accept Panther later. By modify the BIOS, that is pure speculation as I don't know how to read or know what is "normal." Or to dump the device tree. Resetting nvram and OF does build a new device tree.

    XPostFacto - used to help install Panther - has to be able to write out nvram to the boot blocks. Booting from a CD/DVD tries to read the boot blocks. And corrupt boot blocks can prevent booting.

    the other issue seems to be where a machine was password protected. In which case removal of RAM and/or battery is suppose to "unlock" that protection.

    Yup. You get forced to learn a lot.

    I thought I would have an easy time of adding an ATA drive to ACard, use XPF... but XPF reinstall AFTER a system is up and running, ruins everything also.

  20. #20
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    Ahh! It was the Apple Developer site. TZ, when you said "device tree" the old brain made the connection. (a rusty organ, indeed). I think you've pointed out these before, but there are apparently three Tech Notes on Open Firmware. This page contains some links to that:

    http://developer.apple.com/documenta...erMacG3.4.html

    From the looks of this:

    http://developer.apple.com/qa/hw/hw84.html


    It would appear that it is possible that the frimware built-in to 9200 ATI card, without the superimposed instructions of XpostFacto, may be conflicting with the SeriTek and/or the Tango. I wonder if OS9 would boot with the other cards removed and just the 9200 in the PCI slot? Of course, then I guess the question is what would keep the same thing from happening when you add back the SeriTek and the Tango. You really do significantly boost the HD I/O with the SATA drive. Iím not sure I want to omit that. Go back to the lackadaisical load speeds of the internal IDE. It would also seem to diminish, abrasively, the usefulness a mac running Panther to not have FW and USB capability.

    I donít yet have the right ďmodelĒ working in my head to figure this out. Got to study some more.

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