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Thread: Crucial RAM running HOT?

  1. #1
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    I recently bought two brand new 256MB DIMMs to upgrade my G3/450 Blue & White. These chips are PC133 CL2 (2-2-2) and have a speed of 7ns. These should, theoraetically, be fast enough for the Yosemite motherboard. I have installed these chips and all 512MB are recogized in Apple System Profiler. OSX is loving the new RAM.

    The thing is I am getting unexpected system freezes on heavy system load. I can never reproduce a freeze as they happen randomly. I notice that the DIMMs are raunning a LOT hotter than my other chips. I have tried rinning with just the Crucial RAM in and I am still getting lockups. My old RAM never gives me freezes even though its not full apple spec (192MB 10ns PC100)

    Is it the RAM or is it my machine?

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    You should have had trouble with your old RAM.

    Why hot, and how do you know that it is the RAM? Usually it is cpu, disk drives, but ram running hot is new to me.

    I had PC100 Crucial, 768MB, moved it to beige, put in same PC133 Crucial (1024MB) in my B&W with G4/500 and it runs fine. Some apps crash at times.

    there is no accurate way to really measure temperature of cpu. Do you have an LED read out?

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    I dont have an LED readout, but I replaced my original G3 heatsink with a better one with a fan and it seems to run fairly cool. I used thermal paste (a small dab) and made sure there was proper contact. I have been experiencing a fair bit of heat on the topside of my machine (above the CD-ROM). I think it has something to do wuth the WD 6 Gig Hard Drive that I put in the Zip Bay. This drive runs VERY hot for some reason, way hotter than my 20 Gig Maxtor 7200RPM. I have removed the drive and am seeing if this clears up the problem.

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    The zip bay is NOT MEANT for hard drives, and it doesn't have the proper 40 pin cable either. so yes, you are stressing the system.

    your B&W has room for four drives in the bottom. I'd get some cables (www.hypermicro.com) and PCI IDE (HARD RAID if possible) but don't leave your old 6GB in there if you use it or its generating heat. Take the front cover off if you must. Some put a drive on top of the CD bay with velcro even and run a long IDE cable up there, but again, no place for the heat to go.

  5. #5
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    I had a similar problem when I upgraded the memory in my B&W. I was never able to get the machine to operate with two or more 256 modules although I tried several different brands.
    I finally gave up and resorted to using just one 256 modual and staying with OS 9. Details are in a post on this page.
    Try using the ram tests in TechTool Pro. My machine will not pass all the tests.

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    Dear Freash,

    first of all, I'd like to give you a warm welcome to the newly refurbish MacGurus forum site. Here you're going to find loads of experienced users who will hand you out very good help.

    Back to your problem:
    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> have been experiencing a fair bit of heat on the topside of my machine (above the CD-ROM). I think it has something to do wuth the WD 6 Gig Hard Drive that I put in the Zip Bay. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    I confirm you Gregory's diagnosis: that place wasn't meant for a hard drive. IMHO that's your major reason for over heat.
    If you want to place a hard drive where you had your ZIP ATAPI drive before, you will need a Proline's HD Mounting Kit for the B&W G3.
    From the above article you will see that kit will probably resolve your overheating troubles.

    However,
    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> ...but I replaced my original G3 heatsink with a better one with a fan and it seems to run fairly cool. I used thermal paste (a small dab) and made sure there was proper contact. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    It is important that the new heat sink covers safely all of the CPU's surface.
    Also, the thermal paste, although a reasonable solution, not always is cabale to return best heat-transfer performances.
    See this AMD article about Thermal Pad or Paste?, for more answers (AMD is famous for running very hot CPUs, so, quite rightly, they can safely be caled "the experts" about proper CPU cooling solutions)

    Other useful links:
    <UL TYPE=SQUARE><LI>THERMAGON Inc., Thermal Interface Materials
    <LI>AMD Athlon?ΡΆ Processor System Cooling Guidelines[/list]

    HTH

    Costa

    Take it to the Max, Mac!

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    What's AMD .wav file? Mozilla asked what I wanted to do.

    memory in B&W.

    I've tried to cover this, as does Costa, and experience is that mixing from different vendors may not work reliably, best bet is to buy it all (at same time even) from one trusted source like Crucial.

    The B&W lacks the ability to handle memory in the same way a G4 can read the programming information.

    I'm running with 1GB RAM (PC133 Crucial, $55 ea) fine.

    Grab a copy of DIMM First Aid (1.2) and make sure you are seeing 8 nanosecond and that it passes. Helps if it is all PC100 or PC133 but I don't know if that will be a factor. DFA is your best bet, not TTP for this.

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    Sorry Gregory,

    I was posting from my office PC and forgot that .mvm files are the windows equivalent of Apple's QuickTime movies.....

    Can you give it a try with it (QT, I mean)? Can you view it?

    Let me know.

    Thanks

    Costa

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    Actually I tried running the machine with only One Crucial chip in it (No other RAM). Dimm First Aid says its 7ns PC133-222 and it checks out OK. I get no errors running RAM tests in Techtool or any other RAM testing program for that matter (I've tried them all). I contacted Crucial and they told me these dimms were not compatible with my motherboard. I dont see why. Maybe its because you cant have CL2-PC133 in the yosemite, only CL2-PC100. IF you have PC133 it has to be CL3 to be backwards compatible as CL2 in PC100 Machines? Running this RAM means the Grackle would be trying to run it faster than CL2 (CL1 Perhaps?). Cold this be why? I havent been able to come up with a solution but from the looks of it I might be putting this RAM up for sale on eBay or something. I have had enough system freezes here to make the Antarctic look like a tropical getaway.

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    Hey fresh,

    ¬?Just to think on what else can cause your crashing.

    ¬?Revision1 B&W corrupting data on a drive installed on the ATA33 motherboard bus when that drive is newer/faster than oem or a Slave added. Solution is to install a PCI host card. At times the rev2 has had the same issue, again a PCI host card is the solution.

    ¬?If you have a crash you MUST run Disk Warrior on your drives. Any kind of crash is guaranteed to cause corruption issues on your index and after a couple of crashes they start to add up. Eventually you will even lose the ability to boot.

    ¬?An OS or Application corruption. Reinstalling the OS using 'Preserve Users and settings' is an easy way to install a clean OS. Make sure you do disk maintenance first. Applications can be reinstalled at any time.

    ¬?Keep at this, about the only time things are hardware is RAM, corruption from that damned IDE controller and firmware incompatibilities.

    Rick

    <font size=-1>Quis Custodiet Custodes Ipsos?</font>

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    You're ram from Crucial is fine as long as you got to it by using their guide. It's something else, and most likely you'd be fine with PCI controller for your ATA drive(s) or SCSI. Also, new ATA drives work better even on older ATA/33 bus. I get excellent performance from IBM 120GXP and wouldn't hesitate to put one in there (they are now 180GXP model line).

    Check the drive upgrade database on www.xlr8yourmac.com as well as the G3-Zone over there if you haven't.

    I have all 4 slots filled with 256's of PC133 from Crucial.

    Be drastic, start over from scratch building up your system if you must. From battery on up. Use those Isolater FireWire cables from www.fwdepot.com if you use FW devices, don't ebay your RAM, RMA it if you must for PC100 - you did buy your Crucial RAM direct and not from 3rd party?

  12. #12
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    Hi Fresh,

    Mmmmm.... you say:
    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> ....I contacted Crucial and they told me these dimms were not compatible with my motherboard. ....<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    Your Blue & White PowerMac G3 (aka Yosemite), bears the following characteristics which are determinant about the correct RAM you can fit in there:
    <UL TYPE=SQUARE><LI>a Front System Bus clocking at 100MHz, which calls for SDRAM modules with minimum specifications PC-100
    <LI>a memory controller chip known by Apple's engineers as "GRACKLE", which is in fact the Motorola MPC-106 PCI Bridge/Memory Controller.[/list]
    The MPC-106 won't be able to support SDRAM modules with DRAMs (DRAMs are those "bug-like" chips soldered on the TSOP module) having a density greater than 64 megabit (aka Mb; NOT to be confused with megabyte). To have 1 megabyte you need 8 megabit.
    Thus, if you want a SDRAM module that is supported by the MPC-106 - thus with maximum 64Mb in density DRAMs - 256 megabytes (aka MB) in size, you will need:
    <UL TYPE=SQUARE><LI>64Mb x 8 = 64MB
    <LI>64MB x 4 = 256MB
    <LI>Thus: 8 x 4 = 32 DRAMs which are 64Mb in density.[/list]
    At this point, you will probably say: "How the hell is that, as if I count the &lt;bug-like&gt; chips on the module I can only count 8 of them on each side, for a total of 16?
    Easy. As you will see from this Kingston Ultimate Memory Guide, engineers have developped a chip stacking method: two chips are stacked together and occupy the space that one chip would normally take up.
    In fact, if you look very closely to the DRAMs soldered on the TSOP module, you'll see that they are somewhat thicker than a similar layout on a 128MB SDRAM module.
    Thus:
    <UL TYPE=SQUARE><LI>16 x 2 = 32
    <LI>32 x 64Mb = 2,048
    <LI>2,048 / 8 = 256MB[/list]
    If the DRAMs' density is above 64Mb, the GRACKLE memory controller won't be able to "use" the extra density provided beyond the 64Mb treshold.

    Also, you can use PC-133 standard SDRAM modules all right with your Yosemite, BUT they will need to be backward compatible to the PC-100 standard as that (i.e. 100MHz) is the maximum frequency the MPC-106 will be able to run those modules. It would be like trying to use your 115V electric rasor in a 65V wall plug: it will never operate at full capacity.

    You can read more about it in this thread.
    Also, you can look at this other thread to learn which brands - and part numbers of those brands - will be best suitable for your machine.

    With refrence to eventual hard disks' problems you may have, I must concur with Ricks post 110%. You may want to read through the relevant G3 ZONE, under the XLR8YOURMAC web site, to learn more about the various issues between a Rev. 1 Yosemite and a Rev. 2.

    HTH

    Costa

    Take it to the Max, Mac!

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    The article at PC100 was news to me and helped cement what I had been learning and suspected. The "dirty" on DRAM.

    WWW.PC100.COM

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    I found the Tecnical Information sheet for these chips and found out that for CL2 PC133 Chips to work properly, you need a bus speed between 133Mhz and 143Mhz. For CL3 PC133, you need a Bus speed between 100Mhz and 133Mhz. And for CL2 PC100 you need a bus speed between 100Mhz and 125Mhz, hence the Yosemite's 125Mhz or faster SDRAM requirements. The only PC133 DIMMs you can use in the Yosemite are ones with CL3 timing. Unless you can change the clock speed of the Bus to 133Mhz:

    http://www.bekkoame.ne.jp/~t-imai/g3ce2.html
    Dont ask me how I found this page...

    [This message was edited by fresh on Sat June 14, 2003 PT at 19:57.]

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    It is up to the chip if it is backward compatible to have the proper instructions so that PC133 which can be 7 or 7.5 ns. and would normally in 133 MHz bus run as CAS2 (222) to run in PC100 mode which will show up as CAS3. Not the other way around. You have the horse before the cart I think. PC133 will run as CAS3 in the Yosemite.

    None of which really helps. It seems that outside Crucial and a few others, you don't know what you are really getting without running DIMM First Aid. Tattletech also provides detailed info, but can't on B&W becuse the Yosemite lacks the memory controller to use differently programmed chips.

    In your case, I'd say the 7 ns is actually wrong, is too fast, and you need to find 7.5 ns which is what Crucial sells, uses, recommends and costs $56US per 256MB.

    You need to find someone with a G4 I think for those two chips you got.

  16. #16
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    I have been testing out my system a bit over the last few days and noticed my DIMMs only heat up when I am running OSX. They have a normal temp when I am running 9, I left it running last night using the multiple-pass memory tests in Gauge Pro. No errors as usual, but when I booted back into X, all I had to do is just wait a few minutes for the Modules to get warm and for my system to lock up. It locked up 3 times within a half hour period. Back to my extremely stable 10ns PC100 chips made by NewerRam.

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    I have never seen or heard of 10 ns RAM working in B&W and not causing k/p, more so if you do put or have a G4/500/533 or faster in there. Nor is there a memory test that can be run in software that stresses RAM or finds marginal modules, and yet Jaguar will not behave and do so quickly.

    Whoever sold you 7 ns was mistaken and the lack of the Grackle memory controller to be able to read the timing information makes it harder to deal with anything that differs slightly.

    A G4 doesn't even provide good or reliable temp feedback. I agree with what Crucial said, the PC133 that they sell for B&W is 7.5 ns and that 0.5 ns is probably enough of a difference, but the 133's ARE CAS2, that isn't the problem.

    Did you remove the drive from the zip bay that began this? I have never seen a G3 that really needed fan and extra cooling. Maybe - if you've pushed it or the bus or are trying to oc the thing, you might want to try a real G3/800 or something else like G4/533.

    If you keep to specs your system will give you solid reliable performance. heat is hard on disk drives, memory, cpus. I've replaced all the flat cables for IDE and SCSI with twisted pair or the new round ATA cables to allow better air flow to pass over and through. I've had three 10K drives in there, G4, full set of PCI cards.

    If you want to see heat and memory, look at how close the RAM is in a MDD 2002.

    The more you touch electronic components, the easier it is to via handling to damage one. And the only way you can say the RAM is hot is physical touch... very risky.

    But to rely on 10 ns - that stuff is for some very slow G3/300 - 350 at the most, or 66 MHz bus (and oc'd bus to 80's probably), but way too slow for 100 MHz fsb under any load. You're just not putting much load on your system in OS 9.

  18. #18
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    I have been using these two NewerRam DIMMs in my machine for a year now with no problems. One is 10ns 64MB PC100-222, second is a 10ns 128MB PC100-322. I have never had these chips give me any problems whatsoever. I did, at one time, have my system overclocked from 450Mhz to 500. This is when I attached a new heatsink and fan. I found my system was more unstable at this speed and downclocked back to 450. I only touch the DIMMs on the sticker, and only before grounding myself on the case. I am currently running the Crucial RAM in my machine and it seems to run okay with GrackleProbe installed. GrackleProbe says this memory is running at CL3. I have no other DIMMs installed. I want to be totally sure these will not work before I go and sell them.

  19. #19
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    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>I want to be totally sure these will not work before I go and sell them. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Usually you want to buy parts that worked reliably rather than guaranteed to fail. Which is actually funny reading. If you sell the 10's, they might work in a Beige. The 133's in a G4? I feel sorry for that buyer.

    The B&W was made to use 8 ns DRAM. There wasn't any in '99. There were tons of user reports of original Apple RAM failing and causing trouble on B&Ws with the release of OS X PB in fall 2000, attributable and cured by removing the Apple 10 ns DRAMs.

    I've never used GrackleProbe, I did for awhile use Quartz Extreme but don't want any 3rd party software in my system that isn't essential. Some interfere with Apple's updaters or add an unknown, and I have to work with known, especially if doing any testing (which is most of the time). I assume then that you are running Jaguar. So GrakleProbe is sort of a DIMM First Aid for Jaguar.

    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Grackle Probe accelerates Grackle based Macs that are using the Quartz Extreme PCI hack that's been mentioned recently. Grackle Probe could accelerate Grackle based Macs that have high-performance PCI cards, without needing to use the Quartz Extreme PCI hack or any undesirable side effects that QE has. It is not known what the compatibility or the side effects of enabling PCI Store Gathering is. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> For me, I wouldn't use this, especially with 10.2.6 (it hasn't been updated since right after Jaguar 10.2 came out). According to the report on AYM, any acceleration was very small, a couple % points at best. A Radeon Mac in the 66 MHz slot means video should run well anyway, close to AGP 2x maybe.

    DRAM must be, has to be, faster than the front side bus to work.

    Between 2-2-2 and 3-3-3 are a couple iffy and I think 3-2-2 is the slowest combination supported according to Apple's guidelines (even when Apple didn't always follow their own advice). Tattletech and G4s can see more info. Apple use to report specific information in ASP but then removed that feature and went to a "fast/slow" and I'm not sure it shows anything anymore (fast slow seems confusing enough). I single wait state doesn't seem like a lot or would make a big difference, but a difference between 10 ns and 8 ns is the difference of DRAM running at 125 MHz or 100 MHz and that means the system would hang expecting data to be there (at the stop light) instead of still coming down the highway and hadn't arrived. Starved for input.

  20. #20
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    This came from someone using a Beige G3, so off topic sortof: <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>I figured out WHAT caused my L2 to get disabled. A few months ago, I installed PCI Extreme (a package to enable Quartz Extreme on PCI Power Macs), the de-installed it (because it slowed things down)... well, the installation process DISABLES the L2 cache. At least it did on my Sonnet Encore G4/500 ZIF upgrade.

    De-installation ALSO switched the Cache to DISABLED. Bad thing.

    I was going thru a process of re-testing software I've tested over the last year or so, searching for the culprit.

    I'll post my experience to the PCI Extreme web page... hopefully they can fix this bug. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

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