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Thread: The Applications folder & the Applications folder

  1. #21
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    May as well add this piece of info which might be of interest:

    SystemWorks 2.0 is here. And finally there is a note on Alsoft about what the "lite" RE version is. But from the readme:
    quote:
    Running Alsoft DiskWarrior Recovery Edition

    Alsoft DiskWarrior Recovery Edition is a recovery tool. A recovery tool allows you to copy inaccessible files from a disk with a damaged directory to another disk. After you complete the recovery process, your disk will still be in its original damaged state. To recover your files without having to copy them to another disk, you can upgrade to the full version of Alsoft DiskWarrior.


    NOW... why couldn't this have been stated up front?

  2. #22
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    That's adventurous, Gregory.
    My latest: I didn't mess with default Applications folder as far as trying to move it with sudo. That just seems too dangerous right now. But I use a copy on a different drive and alias those apple apps to my dock, finder, etc. All other apps there too..
    I run my home from /Volumes/Users/gmidd; right now it's on the apple-striped cheetah, along with all my docs. It it very fast.
    I boot classic from a fw drive, and again it is extremely fast.
    Second X system on fw for backup, repair, etc. All this is nice, but here's the rub:

    Recently, when I moved my Users first through sudo w/ ditto in the Terminal, and then with Netinfo and CCC- cause I thought I screwed up- sure, everything was copied, but all my aliases were blown frown the other drives. That makes sense, but Mail -including imported mailboxes, internet, and Explorer prefs were all copied but apparently orphaned since I had to completely rebuild Internet, Mail, and Exploder.
    The only time I get a copy that seems 99% intact is when using CCC and doing the entire system incl unmoved home folder frm one drive to another. My question now is how do I back up this arrangement so that the backup is usuable? If for instance, I had to wipe the drive w/ the system and then reinstall, could I then assign the untouched users on the other drive to the new system and expect all prefs to be instantly in order?

    I need a reality check here..! I can understand why it would be a lot easier to keep everything stock....

    George

    ps I agree, that's pretty lame about DW lite. I can just see someone using that for the first time with a florfed drive, reading the readme and discovering they need to download the full vers!


    [This message has been edited by gmidd (edited 30 March 2002).]

  3. #23
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    So far, I'm sticking with CCC and happy with it. CCC 1.2 is an improvement. I always launch Disk Utility (there is now a button in CCC to do so) and erase the destination before running.

    Backup is in two parts: Use CCC for both. system to its own volume (3.3 of 4GB used), then my own /Users (12GB). Averages 1GB per minute. All links, aliases, etc are intact and work.

    I deleted the post about UFS - didn't work, CCC doesn't support UFS, only hfs volumes. rats!

    Norton 7: requires some extensions. Can't be run from CD. Complains about boot blocks but seems safe(r) to use than before. Doesn't do everything perfectly. Worse is the installer. Doesn't warn about or remove old beta remnants. Doesn't install or put things where they belong it seems in one case. Put a log file in /tmp oddly enough, which didn't get removed on reboots, and Console won't see it or 'scrub' it weekly etc.

    My advice: save your money. There aren't any OS X specific worms, trojan horses, and let's hope no AppleScripts to take your address book and do a .vbs Outlook thing.

    There is a reported problem of Dantz having a huge memory leak (don't they use the Performance Tools etc?), conflict with 2940U2B and 2940U2W.

    Testing should involve doing what isn't "normal" or expected type behavior. But the user should still be protected. then again, a report of a bug in the Finder/OS with a "move" operation is _scary_ that hopefully will get royal treatment. Norton SW 2.0 was suppose to ship in mid-April. They should have waited. users should have to be the ones to find stuff that testing in house should of for sure but didn't.

    OS X can backup + erase + restore 20GB per hour. Which means, you want a 2nd backup - always. no?

  4. #24
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    I'll try a backup along those lines, Gregory. The good news is I transferred the home of one of my backup systems to the same home partition of my primary, just like you described in an earlier post. Works flawlessly, all links intact. I think I'm probably dealing with a fair amount of user error on my part in terms of not understanding all the relationships...

    I had my first test of my applications install method: downloaded the latest iTunes with software update- automatically installed in ~/Applications...I attempted to copy the update to my apps folder on a different drive; 'you don't have sufficient priviliges...'etc, so I changed the permissions of ~/Applications using Super Get Info and was successful. I guess the added bonus of this is all the apple-installed updates are backed up besides the fact that I'm using all apps from this other drive...
    I'd like to start learning the command line backup utilities..

    My apple-striped volume cannot be seen in 9, or by DW or Norton cds. I can run disk utility on it from my X system that hasn't had home relocated..
    Been running fsck -y regularly and fooling around with top and other informational commands. Even changed the colors of Terminal and made the windows transparent! Oh well, guess you gotta start somewhere!

    Rick, what's up whichya? Where yo' system at?

  5. #25
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    George,

    Might want to look at norotn utilities 7.0 just to have something that is OS X native to check the Apple RAID. Alsoft still isn't accepting pre-orders and won't comment on when.

    iTunes 2.0 was the one that would wipe out files, had trouble updating, doesn't like relocated files. Maybe even turned application into a folder. Apple has a lot to do still before 10.2 which is hoped to be their "ready for education market" and wider deployment.

    Disk images (.dmg) are a good way to backup your system, your applications, clean 10.1 or when it comes time for 10.1.4+ in case you need to go back.

    I read (MacInTouch) about a memory leak in Dantz Retrospect where it would use all available memory (but not bring down the system). Way to go. REALLY following guidelines on Malloc, memory_leak, and serious testing. I think companies are rushing right now to have "anything" even "1.0" quality and deal with problems later, just to say they are shipping, met the one year anniversary, can be part of the Apple 10.2 blitz or something. Norton SW2 2-3 weeks early? What's with that when their first public beta of NUM7 was a real disaster and not even worthy of beta or public consumption.

    [rant on] I find the whole idea of 'buyer beware' to be against the whole myth of an Apple plug and play or the ethics of integrity. I use to beta test, only then I found that they wouldn't take ideas or suggestions and were rushing things way way too fast. I'm a programmer, not a management type, and the best work came when everything was solid and could then be tested for ease of use, interface, and look at it from the view of the user. [rant off]

    Gregory

  6. #26
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    Actually, I almost permissioned myself right out out of this computer! Turns out out I didn't need Super Get Info to make copies of apps in ~/Applications. I ended wiping and re-installing system; necessary because everything was getting pretty screwed up- swapfiles everywhere, too many users folders, phantom disks....

    I've settled on default users location with a CCC backup copy to fw drive every few days- takes five minutes. I'm running most apps from second drive, though I'm finding some work best when run from default apps folder; Stuffit Deluxe is a good example. Only my graphics files are on apple stripe, everything else in /users/home/docs. I'm ready as soon as SoftRAID is!

    As far as repairs goes, I'm finding fsck -y seems to be the most reliable, even Disk Utility acts funny mounting, unmounting. I try to use DW and Norton from a booted 9 but I think generally we'll have to wait for true reliability from these utes. DiskWarrior I trust the most right now..

  7. #27
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    I made one type when assigning /Users to another volume.

    turns out that the terminal command didn't like a volume name with a " " (space) in the name ("Apple RAID"). Ended up with /Users being in the /Volume directory, it created a "/Apple" directory, and put MY library and preference in there. Lots of mischief. And it was working so well before.

    RAID failed too easily. Seems there is lots of negative feedback on Norton 7/SystemWorks 2 from users. Many with single drives. Its worked fine for me, but I've been disabling extensions, startup portions to see what makes it misbehave. However, it seems reliable. Then again, my drives were "healthy" to begin with.

    Trouble with the 'fsck -y' is that it only runs on the boot volume, so you still need to look at others, and Disk Utility can't unmount your /users home that you moved to another volume. Norton will. Then again, its the OS X volume that gets hit and corrupt most often, not /Users home.

    Swap files like rabbits popping up out of the ground, huh?

    Gregory

  8. #28
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    Yah, problem was I initially moved swapfile through Terminal but made some mistakes, which I compounded by again moving them(it) via SwapCop...didn't know enough in Unix to backtrack and very leary of sudo rm.
    But all's well now. I've learned my lesson- don't screw with permissions until you know what you're doing!
    I'm still running classic unfortunately. Waiting for 1 more app to go cocoa or at least carbon, but it's been quite some time since I booted into 9 to work. To think 6 months ago X was "never going to touch this machine"!

    The Apple RAID has worked fine so far. Everything I have on it is backed up in triplicate just in case.
    Fsck -y as a standard boot -up procedure is very satisfying and I can look at all my other volumes from 9 w/DW, Norton-
    It's kinda funny not having anything to check the RAID except Disk Utility. Almost a naked feeling.

    X in my beginner's HO is so much better than 9 there's just no comparison.

    George



    [This message has been edited by gmidd (edited 03 April 2002).]

  9. #29
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    It finally dawned on me the bind we're in when it comes to re-installing Apple-supplied apps. Sure, one could extract from install cd using Pacifist, but who knows if and how that particular apple app that you're trying to re-install has been upgraded or changed between 10.0 and 10.1.4? You can't re-install using cd over newer versions... Obviously, at some point we're going to need 10.2 on a cd..(assuming that's the version # for Jaguar). I suppose the smart move, would have been to make .dmg's prior to every system upgrade. (like Gregory!)
    I just finally got around to clean-installing and fully upgrading X on a seperate partition, which I'll use for parts; It is absolutely stock and it won't get touched otherwise.
    It's one thing to clone a copy, but who knows what corruption is getting cloned and re-cloned?

    Just some rumination- actually, I haven't had any real problems with any of the Apple apps except for Mail in conjunction with Earthlink, and maybe there's something I can do about that; that'll take a little bit to sort out.
    Sherlock in X is so much better than in 9, its not funny.

    George

  10. #30
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    I suppose if push came to shove, one could extract from the individual updater .pkgs. I'd think you'd have to really go about that with care cause you could end up with mismatched parts and pieces. I never was consistent on my downloads on these updaters; didn't realize how important that could be to get everything as a saveable dmg. I just merrily got hypnotized by Software Update though I did get some installers from the Apple site. But now I figure its time to close in on ftp.apple.com for better control...

    I'm getting the sense with X you've got to have a more rigorous and detailed backup procedure. You can't just wip out any old cd and fire away...but this a the big transition like the early days of 9, just definitely more intense and more at stake.

    That Jaguar is getting the super-hype now. I don't remember anything like this. Did they do that with 9? (I wasn't born yet)

  11. #31
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    George,

    'It finally dawned on me the bind we're in when it comes to re-installing Apple-supplied apps'
    I still think we're back at separating the Users directories from the root directories. I am having very good results with that. I have three complete OSX boot volumes, each individually installed, one of which is OSX Server.

    They all run off the same User volume. When I change boot disk I can't even tell without looking which OSX install I'm running off of. When I install an application it goes in my user volume, not the boot volume.

    When I upgrade the OS or any of the applications that come with the OS like Exploder or iTunes I do so on the boot volume. Doing it this way means I don't do anything special to upgrade the OS supplied apps. They come with the OS upgrades or automatically install themselves in the root folder correctly. I don't even back up the OS volume. I don't even care if it gets trashed, it has absolutely NOTHING that I can't replace with a relatively simple reinstall.

    Only the User directories count at all. Here's where all my applications reside that I want to keep updated, here's where all my prefs and data is that needs backups. I both backup and clone this drive. Again, I just ignore the root OSX volume entirely. If it's corrupted I just replace it. (hasn't happened yet, I have switched OS volumes to try and figure out why a program was crashing though)

    My brother is working on a droplet to allow a user to just drop an empty drive or partition icon to automatically move the user directory to it and install the symbolic links needed to operate it that way. I will check with him on his estimated completion date. He just bought his first new Mac (Dual 1gig) since he bought a 9500/120 the week they were introduced. He's actually got an OSX computer at home to work with now. Should happen soon.

    Rick

  12. #32
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    Yes, I can see this is pretty much the only way right now. I'm real glad we have CCC though. Otherwise, re-installs of the system would be a lot more time-consuming. I've taken to maintaining a perfectly unused and updated X partition for just such a purpose (as well as a cloned version of current system). If I have to wipe a screwed up system, I can then just clone the clean one over, and copy over my nightly-backed up User and Applications and I'm there..
    For now, I leave my home in the default position. Once SoftRAID shows up, I'll try pointing it to a (real) striped partition on the cheetahs, now that I know how to move it correctly.
    I should try an application install into Users; in the early going I had alot of trouble getting stuff to install right with a re-located User. 'Course I think I had the relocation set up incorrectly, so that didn't help...
    That droplet thing sounds good- that'll 'commonize' this practice.

    George



    [This message has been edited by gmidd (edited 15 May 2002).]

  13. #33
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    I did a little survey: there are 4 Apple-installed apps as of 10.1.4 that cannot be copied in their entirety with a finder copy with normal permissions-

    Mail
    Disk Utility
    NetInfo Manager
    Print Center

    They can be copied entirely using CCC.
    The other Apple-supplied apps can be copied in the finder.



    [This message has been edited by gmidd (edited 16 May 2002).]

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