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Thread: Upgrade for Graphics

  1. #1
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    Hi folks,

    Thank you all for your patient replies and helpful info for this neophyte...

    I'm finalizing plans to upgrade my Yosemite and complete my system(ha!) and am looking for a few last rounds of feedback before plunkin' down the scratch.

    1. My central use of the Mac is painting, drawing, and editing my images for fine art prints, illustration, and web. Second to that is develop. and maint. of my websites and generally running my business- creating and printing all my forms, cards, paper and electronic promo, etc. I'm not too interested in making music or video discs- or animation(for now).

    2. My current setup is 2 units: A) B&W G3 350 running OS 9.1, 1gb ram, 3 internal ata's (6 gig plus two 1.5 gigs), cd-rom drive, internal modem, 16mb ATI Rage and 32mb ATI Radeon Mac Edition cards, ethernet card, some sort of scsi card (havn't figured out what it is yet), one Apple 1705 monitor, one epson 740 printer via usb, and one wacom tablet. B) my daughter's scsi mac 7600/132 running OS 8.6 from which I currently run my scanner and zip (she's increasingly like- "Dad, get the hell off my machine!)

    3. My plan for Yosemite: a) remove ata's, install 3 cheetahs: 2 striped as logical volume for main drive, and then mirrored to the third drive as first backup using softRaid( I'd probably throw a scratch disk partition in to this third drive or put in one more fast drive as a dedicated scratch for working my really big files if I ever needed it). b) Install scsi accelerator. c) Nightly backup via retrospect to large external firewire drive, and finally d) backing that up periodically to a second large ext firewire drive stored offsite.

    Eventually, I'll install dual Sonnet and OS X...eventually, I'll be running 2 monitors, ext zip and cd-rw (or maybe dvd-cd-rw upgrade from cd-rom), 2 scanners, and 2 printers. I'm not sure what I need in the way of scsi hdwre; relying on the gurus to walk me through it all.

    I don't think I really need the hardware RAID. My guess is the main bottleneck here if any would be the current processor and maybe the pc100 ram(I can live with that) but probably more than offset by eventual processor upgrade..

    I'm running just about all the gurus recommended software (and following utilities advice pretty closely), but don't yet have speed tools, retrospect, and softRAID or any of the above scsi drives or hdwre...

    So that's the scenario-
    Any thoughts?



    [This message has been edited by gmidd (edited 25 July 2001).]

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Jan 2002
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    3. My plan for Yosemite: a) remove ata's, install 3 cheetahs: 2 striped as logical volume for main drive,
    I do not think you can boot off a STRIPPED volume on a YOSEG3.

    and then mirrored to the third drive as first backup using softRaid
    I'm failry certain this is not doable. This is basically a RAID 5 setup or a RAID 0+1 setup. You really need a hardware solution for this and that is not a good option money wise or support wise. You could use the third for backups - either manually or automatically via software (retrospect?). It is better for backups to run outside the computer. If lightning hits your system and kills EVERYTHING inside - your backup is TOAST

    c) Nightly backup via retrospect to large external firewire drive, and finally d) backing that up periodically to a second large ext firewire drive stored offsite.
    Good IDEA
    Not sure why I missed this on my first glance...

    Eventually, I'll install dual Sonnet and OS X...eventually
    XLR8 has dual CPUs for the 66Mhz systems. Hopefully they will be out soon for the 100Mhz ones. I have a 500Mhz in my B&W - runs well. I would say its a good match for my G4/466 at work. Somethings on the G4 are a bit faster (Photoshop - it seems) but I think X runs well on both systems as is. With the 9x limit on the 7400 you could go with a 900Mhz G4 I think the 7450 has a 16x... but that could be faster than your subsystem will handle. Hopefully the upgraders will get their hands on some.

    For the drives I would get two 36GB 10K Cheetahs for data, scratch, etc... I would then get a single 18GB 15K Cheetah to boot. You could even get FW cases and put your old IDE/ATA drives in them - much cheaper that way!

    If they are slow IDE/ATA (10~20MB/s) then get an old cheap FW case. If they are fast IDE/ATA (20MB+) then get an OXFORD style (or equvialent) case. The old cases could handle about 15MB/s. The new ones handle about 25MB/s. FW are all converted IDE/ATA anyway... that way you can get the CPU upgrade sooner!
    I'll be running 2 monitors, ext zip and cd-rw (or maybe dvd-cd-rw upgrade from cd-rom), 2 scanners, and 2 printers. I'm not sure what I need in the way of scsi hdwre; relying on the gurus to walk me through it all.

    I don't think I really need the hardware RAID. My guess is the main bottleneck here if any would be the current processor and maybe the pc100 ram(I can live with that) but probably more than offset by eventual processor upgrade..

    ------------------
    Life in the fast lane leads to:
    The Resteraunt At The End Of The Universe

  3. #3
    Join Date
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    OK, as I perused the scsi pages of Doom, I read you cannot boot from striped volume in G3 and RAID 0/1 is not yet available in software-so then plan B...

    Apparently Yose can accomodate 3 scsi int. drives max.
    Boot off one 15k cheetah, mirror to 2 10k cheetahs, backup externally to large FW...(?)
    Or boot off 15k and stripe to 2 10k's?

    As for best/fastest scratch disk: partitioned in the (mirrored or striped) array or separate hd altogether? Though its probably slow, I could keep 1 ata inside with the 3 scsi's and dedicate for scratch...

    I'm a little confused as to how to obtain these basic objectives:
    Ideally, we want the fast read, the fast write, the fast simultaneous backup, and the unfettered scratch write..

    [This message has been edited by gmidd (edited 26 July 2001).]

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Jul 2000
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    Toronto, Ontario, CANADA
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    I just sent off an email to gmidd but here's some ideas - based on how our server is set up...

    We have a lab server (G3/300 upgraded 7300) that has 4 36 GB 10K Seagate + a couple of 18 GB ones - all running off a Miles2 card.

    We have TWO RAID 0 set ups and one RAID 1 set up

    The machine boots off a RAID 0 which has the ASIP server apps

    The students store their data on the other RAID 0 (2 x 36 GB striped)

    We archive older data to the RAID 1 (2 x 36 GB mirrored)

    The whole mess is backed up nightly to VXA tape and a complete backup is run weekly to yet another VXA tape...

    ...
    Chris

  5. #5
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    Thanks Dragon, thanks Chris
    I'm curious Dragon- if $ were not a factor, why not use two15K cheetahs striped or mirrored instead of 10K's + 1 15K as boot? Would the performance gain be minimal relative to cost? Or are you advocating the 10K's because of their larger size?-g

    ps- got my nightly backups happenin' to the firewires plus cdrw on the way from the 'ru's
    (I decided it made more sense to burn backup discs for offsite storage rather than cart one of the ezq's back and forth. Besides- I just love lookin' at my retro cool ezqs all lined up and doin' their thing!)

    [This message has been edited by gmidd (edited 17 August 2001).]

    [This message has been edited by gmidd (edited 17 August 2001).]

  6. #6
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    if $ were not a factor, why not use two15K cheetahs striped or mirrored instead of 10K's + 1 15K as boot? Would the performance gain be minimal relative to cost? Or are you advocating the 10K's because of their larger size?-g
    Exactly - 72GB may sound like a lot now, but after you have it for awhile - it aint much. Just like everything - the more you have the more you will use. Now - Seagate does have 15K 36GB drives - so you might want to wait for these. Some retailers have them - so I guess they are trickling out int othe sales channel. I would probably go with a 36GB 15K boot + 2x36GB stripped RAID!

    Mag has been fairly quiet on the 36GB 15K drives... sometimes they can be fairly slow about things, but Gurus only sells stuff that ROCKS, so maybe they are doing QA right now?

  7. #7
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    Alright, I see da issue mo' clearly now...I may even wait a bit on the cheetahs- should have my new Quicksilver any day now, and it's clear to me now that'll be a better platform than Yose for the scsi drives.
    Plus, there's the uncertainty thing around X and softRAID, though I will really prefer to run 9.1 on the 733 while things get ironed out...

    Meanwhile, it's time to reformat a coupla small ATA's I mucked up the other day..
    Thanks dragon

  8. #8
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    Apr 2000
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    You want magician to take a look at this.

    Esp. since your solutions involve some bucks. My opinion would be to boot off of a big fat Cheetah running on an ATTO card, and work on a twin 15k Cheetah striped array for the speedy disk writes. You can set up Retrospect to do backups as often as you want (daily), which is almost as good as mirroring without all the headache.

    Your plan for off-machine backups is excellent.

    Batsignal invoked to magician!

  9. #9
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    Yes, I was thinking along the same lines: 3 x 15k cheetahs striped and running off the dual ATTO...boot on 1 channel, run the other 2 on the other channel.
    Then with my Adaptec card, run my scsi scanner, zip, etc.
    Pull the OEM 40gig ATA/IDE and stick it in a fw case for a substantial near in-line storage capacity of 120GB (3 x 40 GB fw's)...somebody, quick! Get me a cold towel!

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