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Thread: New XLR8 G3 upgrade issues

  1. #1
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    Hi cats -

    I just installed a brand-spankin'-new XLR8 (via DayStarTech) G3/466 in my beloved 7300. I have been running OS 8.6 for years, happily, but now I am starting to get errors and crashes a bit too often (the finder has unexpectedly quit...). I acquired an installation CD of OS 9.2.1 at school, but lo and behold, when I try to boot from the CD, I get "this startup disk will not work in this machine".

    I read with dismay on the Apple website that OS X "does not support processor upgrades". Can this mean that my 7300 and I are stuck with OS 8 until death do us part?

    Should I just reinstall OS 8 from the CD?

    Please bear in mind that I am a fairly low-level (but loyal) Mac user, and am quite isolated in a hostile peecee world - no Mac experts around to appeal to for aid.

    I humbly beg the Gurus for advice.

  2. #2
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    Mac OS 9.1 is your best bet. To install OS X you need to use XPostFacto from www.macsales.com OS X support. There is a forum, fee based $10, devoted to installing OS X on OldWorld systems.

    512MB RAM and 4GB of drive space. Helps to have a good video card.

    I run OS X 10.2.2 on 7300 G3/400.

    9.2.1 won't install without 'fudging' and really, 9.1 runs fine. Make sure it is not a Mac-specific 9.1 installer but a retail. Works great. Jaguar makes 10.0 and 10.1 look beta and is a good OS.

  3. #3
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    I used the 9.1 update from 9.0.4 and everything (well, I think my Voodoo5 is getting a bit long in the tooth) works good on my 8500/XLR8 G3 400.

    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Please bear in mind that I am a fairly low-level (but loyal) Mac user, and am quite isolated in a hostile peecee world - no Mac experts around to appeal to for aid.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    Relax. You'll be fine in here.

  4. #4
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    Remember after upgrading your current/older processor to a G3/G4 that it will stress your RAM a lot more and many pepole never notice problems until a G3/G4 upgrade. So don't rule out a RAM issue or problem after a new upgrade.

    Randy

  5. #5
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    Also, if you like 8.6 then OS9.1 will be even better... except for the size. Don't worry about the OSX issue... 9.1 should run fine!

    Only time I had trouble booting from a CD, (just recently), I cured it by pulling the HD out of my PM6500 and putting it in a FW case, using DiskWarrior to repair it, then hooking it up again... curious thing, was that even with the HD disconnected, it would'nt boot from the CD, or a SCSI drive for that matter... Zapping PRAM didn't work either... there had to be something looking for the IDE boot Sector... I guess.

  6. #6
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    Thanks, everyone!

    I get the impression tah OS 9.1 is the way to go. But after a quick search on eBay, I see OS 9 install CDs going for $25-$30, which is not a huge chunk of change, I admit... but I could buy ANOTHER 7300, WITH OS 9.1 installed, for $30 on eBay. This strikes me as completely ridiculous. Anyone have an OS 9 install CD thay want to get rid of?

    I have OS X coming in the mail for free (I am a public school teacher) but I seriously doubt I will be able to use it - I only have 272 Mb of RAM. If they will give me OS X for free, why won't they give me an older OS they don't even sell anymore? It just doesn't make sense to me.

    I am not too worried about my RAM, but I would still like to try that "RAM test" that Randy keeps trying to point me to. I can't seem to access the ftp site; is that power control app available anywhere else that you know of?

    Thanks again.

  7. #7
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    You WANT the install CD if your goal is to get rid of the error msg's. So you can do a clean install and always have that CD in case you need to to do an emergency cd boot. IMO 8.6 is a more stable OS than 9.1..so if money is an issue then shop on ebay for an 8.5 install disk.

  8. #8
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    Yes OS 9.1 is more stable, faster, just better. tm311 says 8.6/8.5 is more stable... He has been around much longer than me - knows his stuff - tryt it - others like 9.1 - I had little or no trouble with either. I would spend the $$$'s for it. You will use it to fix/repair/trouble shoot drives with. To reinstall the OS with, boot from. Just having it on another machines HD or another HD in the same machine just might not be enough.

    Everyone should have a updated OS CD/Disk to boot from, you'll get the newest software/drivers etc. I fully agree it's older and should be "free" some where - I looked everywhere. I bought one 18 months ago on eBay - thinking I would use it once.... Best bucks I spent. I have used it over and over. One day you will want or NEED it. :wink:

    YOU NEED an application like fetch which is "free" to down load software off the ftp site. Try cnet.com it is there. Gurus Ftp site... start here http://www.macgurus.com/index.php I will check back tonight/tomorrow and if you can't get the RAM test's I'll email or snail mail them to you. Try or look at XLR8's web site in the downloads.

    Good luck
    Randy


    [This message has been edited by rwm2 (edited 23 November 2002).]

  9. #9
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    Well, I do have Fetch, but I can't get it to connect to the macgurus ftp site. For "host", I use ftp.macgurus.com. For "username" and "password" I tried my registered macgurus screen name and password. I got "login failed". Then I tried "guest" and my email address - also "login failed". Am I doing something wrong?

    I am considering copying the OS 9 install CD to my HD, using a different CD to boot, and then running the OS 9 installer. I know it may not work, but is there any danger in trying?

    One more question: should I spend $16 to buy Norton Utils 6.0? I have version 4.0, but the CD will no longer boot my machine. I always figured it helped to run Disk Doctor occasionally and let it fix any errors it found - what do YOU think?

    I am sorry I'm so stupid, but I haven't really spent much effort staying current on computer issues since I learned BASIC on my Apple IIe. Anybody else remember 64k of RAM? ;-)

    [This message has been edited by AquaRegia (edited 23 November 2002).]

  10. #10
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    Well, I just opened Fetch, typed in ftp.macgurus.com and left the username/password fields blank. Got an error but clicked OK and got in.

    OWC has an OS 9.1 install disc for $50. They also have a bundle that includes OS 10.0.3, 10.1 update, 9.2.1 update & 9.1 CD's for $70. Not a bad deal if you plan on going to 10 eventually.

    Don't bother with Norton. Many here recommend Diskwarrior and my system has been much healthier since I dumped Norton and use TechToolPro.

    While I don't remember using 64K of RAM I do remember when my sis showed me her new Mac (a Plus or SE?) back in '88. I remember thinking it was cool but I could never afford one. My first functional Mac was a IIci I got from her back in '99. Guess I've learned a bit since then, mostly due to this forum. My dad's a PeeCee guy and I've always hated those things.


    [This message has been edited by M.Brane (edited 24 November 2002).]

  11. #11
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    Thank you, Mr. Brane - that advice did the trick nicely. "Left the fields blank!" Why didn't I think of that?

    Got PowerControl and will try the RAM test tonight.

    Will abandon Norton and shop for DiskWarrior.

    Definitely will not buy OS 9 for $50 - there's GOT to be a better way.

    Your mention of TechTool was timely; I had an OLD version (1.1.8) which no longer worked, so earlier today I d/ld the new TechTool lite. When I did the system test, both my system and my finder failed. However, nothing tells me what the problem might actually be. Thoughts, anyone?

  12. #12
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    Have you read up on extension conflicts and corrupted preference files using 8.6?Before you randomly throw out money for for things, it might not be a good idea to slow down a bit and try and think if maybe you installed some program that might be causing these problems first.

  13. #13
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    Conflict Catcher 8 or 9 in demo mode. Scan for damaged resources. It is not uncommon for the system file is have a minor error, wrong length, and the only simple way to fix is drop a copy of the file on ResEdit, then replace the existing file with the new one. CC8 will also spot extensions that shouldn't be enabled, help find conflicts, set up sets and links.

    Or just drop the system file on ResEdit, or open it with the 'verify files when opening' preference.

    Damaged driver, damaged boot blocks, damaged directory. Update the driver. run Disk Warrior.

    You can never have too many tools in your chest. Imagine an auto mechanic with one wrench?

    Backup, initialize, clean install is one of the best, and if your disk drive system is fast, should be done as general maintenance every six months.

  14. #14
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    The only new software I have installed recently is the XLR8 driver, and I have already seen a discussion of whether this can cause a problem or not - some say it's fine, others think it may not be. I'm starting to flounder now - there are just too many possibilities and I simply don't have the time to check them all. I just need this machine to work. :-(

    The system crashed the first 4 times I ran the PowerControl RAM test, clearly a bad sign. On restart the last time, Disk First Aid said it "found a problem it could not fix". Norton Utils found and fixed a bunch of catalog errors. I pulled the OEM DIMMs and finally got through a 5 minute RAM test, but 6 errors were found. I was hoping the app would tell me more - like WHICH DIMM is having a problem. All I know is the hex address for the location of the errors, but this means nothing to me. Can anyone help?

    If my RAM was OK, shouldn't I get through a test with zero errors? Are my symptoms consistent with a RAM issue exposed by processor upgrade?

    According to PowerControl, the two OEM 16 Mb DIMMS were the only ones interleaved. Does this mean they are still OK to use? There is a "70" on the side of each chip, which I assume means 70 ns.

    If some of my new RAM is substandard, can I tell which? I believe thay are all 60 ns (a pair of 64s and a 128), although I would have to pull them to check.

    If not, am I to throw away ALL 256 Mb and buy all new?

    SOS!

  15. #15
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    I would say any 128's are fine and not bother with the 16's. But trash Norton before you really create mischief, and stick to Disk Warrior, TechTool Pro, backups.

    Sometimes the fastest is to just do a thorough job rather than try to find out "why" but in this case, RAM seems to be culprit. A G3/466 is more than the original or 70 ns was designed for. Even with 60 ns, some systems needed to de-internleave their 60 ns 128MB chips.

    At $25/128MB that isn't too painful, and lose of 32MB isnt' worth having crashes that can cause more harm.

  16. #16
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    OK - I've decided to just go ahead and buy new RAM (I guess this thread should now be in the memory forum, but what can ya do?) At $26 per 128 Mb, OWC seems like a good bet. The only question now is: EDO or non-EDO? I'm afraid I can't even remember what that stands for.

    To recap, this is for a 7300/180 with a new XLR8 G3/466.

    I plan to buy a pair and pop them in matching slots, then sell off the 64 Mb sticks. I guess I'm just hoping that that will fix my troubles. If not, then I'll try to think of a new plan.

    What is the easiest way to actually test a single DIMM? Take all the others out and run PowerControl RAM test?

  17. #17
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    Read this for RAM info. http://www.macgurus.com/products/ram/mgramconsult.php

    And I think you do have to check RAM chips pair by pair and then 1 by 1 to slowly find the bad culprit/s.

    Randy

  18. #18
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    Also, any recently purchased inexpensive 128 MB DIMMs are much more likely to be your culprit than older 16 MB DIMMs. The sudden price drop in 128 MB DIMMs came along with a sudden reliability drop. For example, at $50 each, I bought ten and they were all fine. At $40 I bought ten and sent three back, returned two of the three replacements, returned one of the two replacements and finally had ten reliable 128 MB DIMMs. At $30 each I bought eight for a friend in the UK and tested them before forwarding. I had to send *seven* out of eight back. Then when the replacements plus one original got to the UK, one of the eight failed there and had to come back.

    The moral of the story is that the inexpensive 128 MB DIMMs have a high failure rate. Test thoroughly. About 1300 - 1500 iterations of RAMometer using the RAM Sandwich method is the way to go.


    [This message has been edited by trag (edited 26 November 2002).]

  19. #19
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    Thank you very much for the concrete examples. In fact, I just finished testing my DIMMs one by one with PowerControl and found, sure enough, it's the new 128 MB stick giving the errors. My older 64 MB DIMMS tested for 8 hours with zero errors.

    I have two more 128 MB DIMMS coming from OWC. I will test them one at a time overnight immediately. Follow-up questions:

    Is the XLR8 PowerControl RAM test as good as RAMometer, which you mentioned? If not, where can I get it? I searched VersionTracker with no luck.

    Is there ANY nonzero error level that is considered tolerable? For example, what if a particular DIMM tests for 12 hours and gives one error - that's a lot better than 3 errors in 5 minutes (as mine had). Would you still send it back? In other words, is it reasonable to expect ANY RAM to work for infinite time with no errors?

    Thanks!

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