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Thread: Can't get G3 B&W to boot from EIDE hard drive

  1. #1
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    Dear All,
    I recently got a Power Mac G3 Blue & White with no hard drives ($200 still seemed like a good deal it was supposed to be working when the company that surplused it pulled the drives).
    I put a Western Digital EIDE 4.3 GB drive into the B&W. My Power Mac G3 Beige boots from this drive with no problems, but I cannot get the B&W to boot from this hard drive. It just gives me the blinking ? folder icon.

    The B&W will boot up from either the TechTool Pro (3.0.2) CD, or Disk Warrior CD with no problem. The HD mounts. The drive icon appears on the desktop, and it can be opened in the Finder. When I tried The Drives test suite of TT Pro, it said that the tests were "unavailable". Does anyone know what that means? Does this give some useful information to solve the problem? It passed all the other hardware and software tests, but it is in some way "unavialable" as a boot disk.

    I tried restarting the B&W. I tried saving and zapping the PRAM on the B&W with TTPro. I tried zapping PRAM with the P+R keys. I pressed the CUDA button, and I tried a battery that worked fine in the Beige. None of these fixes were successful. The system folder on the EIDE HD has a small Mac icon on it, so I think it is properly blessed. I pulled the System out of it's folder, closing it, reopening the folder, and putting the System back. I tried putting the drive in the first and second socket on the ribbon cable in the B&W. None of these helped. As far as I can tell the drive is jumpered properly. WD says that shorting pins 3 & 5 is the "neutral position" for this 10 pin drive operating as a single drive. I may try some other positions. I have run out of ideas. Can someone make some recommendation(s)?

    Thank you,
    Tom Dorsey

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    Put a drive in there that you can initialize. I'd get a new drive for your Beige and B&W. Those 4GB drives are old and very slow. You may need to find out if it is a rev 1 or 2, also. www.xlr8yourmac.com/G3-Zone.html (I think) has a LOT of info to help you.

    I would boot from Mac OS 8.6 or 9.2.1 CD and initialize the drive and put a clean system folder on it. The system from the Beige will not have the resources needed by a B&W NewWorld machine.

    Serial ATA or PATA drive and controller $150 ish.
    Crucial 256MB RAM $62 each. RAM is the biggest trouble for most people when it comes to these machines. We had another long B&W troubleshooting thread about a month ago that would be good to look over and familiarize yourself with. Similar problems i think. B&W thread and maybe this one .

    However, this is the one closest to yours it sounds like.

    Reset Open Firmware for starters. Hold down command option OF and when you get to the OF prompt type the following commands:

    reset-nvram
    set-defaults
    reset-all

    that will reboot the system.

    I'd go straight to Panther once you know the system works. Works very nice.

    [This message was edited by TZ on Mon November 10, 2003 PT at 6:41.]

  3. #3
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    Thanks for the advice, TZ.
    I probably won't have time to try out your suggestions 'til the weekend, but I'll repost after I have had a chance to check out those threads and get back "under the hood" of the B&W.
    TD

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    Your advice worked (eventually). I Zapped the NVRAM, which did not get the WD drive to boot. I tried moving the jumper on the drive, to Master and Cable Select. It did not even mount on Master (what did I expect there is no Slave). With Cable Select, I was back to mount/no boot.

    So I put the WD back into the Beige. The Beige does not like cable select, but I'll put it back in the Neutral/Single position later.

    I went out and got a new initializable drive, a Maxtor Diamond Max Plus Ultra ATA/133 160 GB hard drive. This is probably too much drive for the B&W, but I can put it into something else later (even one of my Windows machines, I've still got my grounding strap on, but I didn't get hit by lightning).

    Oh, and by the way, it works fine. I booted up on the OS 9.1 CD, initialized with Drive Setup and installed 9.1.

    I do have one concern at this point, though. The installation guide warned of "data loss" with a drive larger than 137 GB. I know I can't use all the capacity of the drive without an ATA/133 card, but data loss sounds more ominous. This sounds more like losing data you put on the disk rather than not being able to put something on. Con someone further enlighten me on the care and feeding of large, fast, ATA drives. What best buys are out there as far as ATA upgrade cards are concerned?

    I actually never intended to keep the WD drive in the B&W anyway. I have a Seagate Cheetah 9 GB Ultra 2 (ST39103LC) that I am looking around for a PCI SCSI card for. I just wanted to make sure this thing worked, first.

    I still think I want to have SCSI capabilities for this machine. I understand the Miles 2 or the ATTO UL3D are considered the way to go for this machine. E-Bay hardly ever has any Initio drives, but I have seen some ATTO UL3Ds for reasonable prices. I'm interested in what people think. At this point I'm probably committed to a faster ATA card unless it would be wasted due to some other bottleneck. Nonetheless I can't quite give up my SCSI yet.

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    Tom,

    In order to avoid data corruption on a rev 1, you need a PCI IDE controller in a B&W. And in order to format and address large > 128GB drives, also need PCI card.

    The B&W - SATA or ATA. I'm totally SCSI on mine, but that's me. And I have half a dozen SCSI cards. ATTO UL3S or Adaptec 29160. Haven't use Initio Miles2 for various reasons. ACard has an LVD U160 controller. Hear little about but suppose to be okay and slightly less than Miles2.

    Any of today's ATA/SATA drives are as much as the B&W can handle and deliver ~50MB/sec - for a lot less of course. Check the drive performance database and reviews at www.storagereview.com

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    Dear TZ et al,
    Fortunately, the motherboard is a revision 2 with a 450 MHz CPU, but I decided to to put in an ATA controller card anyway. I'm not worried about the data corruption that plagued the rev. 1 boards, but at the least, I want to use all 160 MB of my new hard drive.
    I put in an SIIG Ultra ATA 133/100 Pro controller and it seems to work fine. I think that it is the same card that ACard sells. I don't know who sold what to whom or how that works.
    At first I was concerned, because the Apple System Profiler "saw" the card as a SCSI card on a SCSI bus. I have been told by SIIG not to worry and Googled around to find discussions that say that is just how the card interacts with the software (sort of emulating a SCSI card, I guess).
    I haven't exactly noticed blinding speed. Perhaps surfing theweb is not the place to see a speed gain. I may be bottled up behind my Cable/Broadband Internet Service provider, or maybe the LinkSys Etherfast Cable Router is the limiting piece of the chain.
    I can also try the SCSI route, because I got an ATTO UL3D card from Other World Computing. I'll report on how that goes and welcome comments and advice on the project so far.
    r

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    TD,

    ?You won't see any difference from faster storage when browsing. Browsing uses graphics, cpu and ram for just about everything noticeable speed wise. Disk storage performance will more affect day to day use where you are accessing files and writing to disk.

    ?You definitely have a much faster performing drive setup on the Siig. Siig btw buys their cards from Acard and places it in their own packaging. Acard is the actual developer of the Siig ATA host card line.

    Rick

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    Those cheap OEM Ul3D cards OWC sells are not recommended, nor will they work, in B&W. I have one - just to find out. They aren't true "UL3Ds" like the retail with dual internal and dual external connections. More like UL3S. Bad naming.

    The benefit on the PCI card is you can get 50MB/sec instead of 33MB/sec, and you have more independent buses - so you could have three master drives, or use software. A lot of people bought the "RAID" version of the card.

    It should not pose any trouble, but you do want to check ACard web site for updates, and especially if you install and run Jaguar or Panther. It's just SIIG name on ACard hardware.

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    That sounds ominous. I have not had a chance to try the SCSI card. I've been working on setting up a manual switchbox to share a VGA monitor among a number of computers and the B&W.

    I guess I need to prove it for myself if I want OWC to take it back. I wonder if it will work in my Beige G3? Of course the main bus is so slow in the Beige...

    I'll let you know how this works out.
    Thanks

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    If the card won't work in B&W, even less chance in Beige. What does work for SCSI in Beige: ACard lvd Ultra160 ($169), ATTO PSC and UL2D, Adaptec 29160/29160N. Rev C (only): 39160.

    B&W: 2940U2B, ATTO retail UL3S, UL3D, UL4S/D, UL2D, Adaptec (29/39160), ACard. If you plan to use a G5 later, the UL4S or 39160, even the ACard work, but UL4 is the only PCI-X card out there.

    We've tried to help people buying cheap UL3D (OWC and eBay) and its no fun. Those tend to be long drawn out threads. OWC has changed their "recommended" hardware on this card, not sure why. I've seen people try to flash this card or other non-Mac UL3D's and run into trouble, even from installing ATTO 2.0 Plus drivers. YMMV and "use at your own discretion."

    Not a fan of SCA. Doable. Recommand Granite adapter (of course), or just get a decent 10K drive. I do think SCSI helps. No, I know so. Even my Beige running Panther and "just" browsing the net. A good SCSI drive AND having the system on one drive, "home" on a totally different drive. $150 for 36GB drives. A Granite SCA adapter is $49.

    I would not have expected (doesn't work for me) to use the same system folder for Beige and B&W. OldWorld vs. NewWorld. Even the hfs wrapper and boot blocks might be different.

    OWC 3950U2B for B&W or later, $49.

    I've seen people say a card works in a given system, but not work in others. One person says the OEM UL3D works in G5. Testing cards sometimes doesn't bring up a problem which shows up when you have 100's of people on various sytems, like we're seeing now with a Serial-ATA card in some G4's - which points to an inherent design "flaw" in the G4 PCI architecture, not in the card, but which was never uncovered to the point anyone took the time to reliably reproduce AND attempt to find out why, and come up with a fix.

    I've seen problems "disappear" just with the use of new, current generation disk drives, where the old drive, as in your 4GB WD, would not work (I had OS X 10.1 on mine but had trouble, while a newer IBM 120GXP allowed switching systems easily). I think these ATA drives with 8MB cache are perfect for desktop users, too. Unless they are willing to spend the bucks rather than a "SCSI on the cheap." In which case, that $49 3950 might be perfect pairing.

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    I'm afraid you are right again. The B&W freezes with the OWC UL3D. I will get in touch with them and see what they are willing to do about it. I still want to get some SCSI capabilities into the B&W, if only to get that Cheetah going. I've had the hard drive and the adapter working in other machines and the B&W "sees" the drive and was able to initialize it.

    Ive seen ATTO UL2D cards on E-Bay for about $50 or $60, plus shipping. I'm surprised you mention Adaptec cards. Most folks on the Guru fora don't seem to think too highly of them. XLR8 also seems to like the Initio and ATTO cards better. The
    Adaptec 29160 cards are running around $ 110 to $130. I have not seen any mention of Rev C, however.

    As far as the B&W is concerned 2940U2Bs are going for $40 (E-Bay). I've seen the ATTO retail UL3Ds
    running around $ 140 to $150 there, with another $8 to $10 on top of that for shipping. An Adaptec 39160 went for $ 180. I have not seen any ACards over there.
    When you say UL4 is the only PCI-X card, do you mean that none of these other cards that go in PCI slots can run OS X? I thought that I saw the Adaptec APD-39160 cited as being able to accommodate X in a B&W, but this is contradicted elsewhere.

    Dantz has an OS X SCSI card compatibility list at http://list.dantz.com/pipermail/retr...02/003333.html (at least it did when I accessed it on 11/17/03). They definitely found problems with many Adaptec cards. Initio's Miles cards run X. It looks like some other ATTOS (EPCIs ?) run X also.

    I'm definitely getting the idea that the cheap cards are not a wise economy.

    On the topic of flashing, I've actually got a working AHA-2940U2W (NOT POWER DOMAIN/MAC VERSION)running in a Windows machine. I checked into flashing it, but it seems that (according to an article on XLR8YRMAC) that the chip on the Windows version is not big enough to accomodate the Mac firmware, or I'd be tempted to try it.



    The "OWC 3950U2B for B&W or later, $49" sounds like a good deal. I wonder if it runs OS X? On the other hand, I may just play it safe and put down the $$$ for an Initio U2W from the Gurus.

    At the risk of making this an infinite thread, I'd ve interested to hear comments on the above, and I'll report on what happens with OWC.

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    ACard also has a Mac LVD card. Promoting one and being against another is not wise. I refuse to follow any religion and party line. And to buy and try. Which is how I also learn.

    If you can settle for Ultra2, you can save a little. If you want support for more, the Adaptec 29160 is nice, and the 39160 works in the 66 MHz slot very nicely.

    ATTO's method for updating their cards is more difficult, and they at least seem to have quite a bit of trouble getting Panther/G5 support. As for Dantz, the info is a year old and I don't use Retrospect anymore, so that's mute.

    The B&W can handle SATA nicely and handle a couple internal drives if that's an option.

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    I finally got a reply from Tech Support at Other World Computing. They deny any knowledge of problems between their Apple/ATTO UL3Ds and the B&Ws. They maintain the problem is with the cable. Granite sounds like the way to go for adapters/cables.

    How would termination be worked out. If I go with an SCA adapter at the end of the line (some sort of 68 pin cable), I assume that the adapter has termination and no other termination should be on the cable Is that correct? (I'm not ignoring comments about SCA, but part of this is about making old & leftover equipment function, and part is about learning stuff). Would it be possible to put another SCA on another connector along the cable with another adapter? What would that do to the termination scheme? Can Granite Adapters be jumpered not to act as terminators (sorry Arnold)?

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    ?So I guess I can contribute here. I have had one of those Granite SCA adapters and they work well. And yes, the termination is switchable as are the jumpers for ID. You could save a few buck and get one with Termination, the GD5050, and one without, the GD 5051.

    ?Or, you could get a standard Terminator, the 2015, and use it on the end with as many SCA drives as you feel like without terminating the drives themselves. You'd want an internal cable with the 68pin MicroD termination connector on the end.

    Rick

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    ATTO had to issue a 1.66 firmware for their cards JUST for B&W (and Yikes!) systems to deal with 9.2.1+. UL3D OEM being sold has 1.6.1 firmware. Otherwise there are problems with firmware 1.64 and earlier.

    OWC doesn't do testing. I spent weeks, over a month, working with ATTO on this one.

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    I have had some luck with my experiments. Having heard about problems with both UL3D OEM cards and some SCA drives, I put an Adaptec 29160N into the uppermost 33MHz PCI slot. Using the terminated cable that came with the card, I put an old IBM Ultrastar SCSI-3 hard drive (DCAS 34330) into the B&W. The drive is an 80 pin model, so I needed a TCC 80-pin LVD to 68 pin adapter to link the cable to the drive. I got the B&W to boot up on the 9.0 CD, mounted the IBM hard drive, set it as the startup disk, and rebooted. Apple System Profiler showed the SCSI drive as ID = 0 on SCSI Bus 1. I was interested to note that my Ultra ATA Hard Drive comes up as ID = 0 on Bus 3. I've seen the ATA on the PCI card come up as "SCSI" before, but why it's bus 3 I don't know. Upon restart, the B&W booted from the IBM and behaved well. The only problem with this setup was that I couldn't get the machine to boot to the IBM from a completely cold status. I don't know if this is a problem between the firmware of the hard drive and the driver or if there is some problem having two hard drives with address 0. Any help with this will be welcome.

    Now I tried the UL3D. I went through the identical procedure, and got the same results with the ATTO/Apple card. This made me think that some of my earlier problems were with the Cheetah. More experiments confirmed this. When I changed only the drives, putting in the Seagate Cheetah Ultra-2 SCSI (ST39103LC) in place of the IBM, the B&W started freezing up all over the place: The same old problem.

    I swapped the Adaptec card back in and got the same freezing behavior, so it seems to me that the Cheetah does not play nicely with the B&W. Unless I can fiddle with jumpers on the drive or the adapter, I'm not very hopeful about getting the SCA Cheetah drive going here.

    I think the 2 conclusions to draw are, that the UL3D can be made to work under just the right conditions in the B&W, and the Cheetah is a problem. The other remaining problem is getting the IBM SCSI-3 drive to work as a boot drive. This is probably an interesting project, but the best bet seems for me to get a more modern SCSI hard drive, avoiding the Single Connector Adapter, and see how it plays with either the UL3D or the 29160N.

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    One step forward, and one step backward?

    Sure would prefer to see a new 68-pin drive in there like Cheetah 10K.6.

    Also, check Hitachi for jumper info on how to set auto start delay on the drive so it has time to spin-up AND warm up - both are important.

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    I got the right jumper settings for the IBM. Taking off a "Unit Attention Disable" jumper seemed to do the trick. Now it "generates a Unit Attention following a Power On Reset or SCSI bus reset" (whatever that means exactly, I don't know), but the IBM now boots. It works with both the Adaptec and the Apple/ATTO cards.

    None of the jumpers on the Seagate drive seem promising. I looked on some of their support pages for the Cheetah. The adapter that I have has jumpers labeled, "TPR, DLY, REM, LED, SNC, and SNC. I'm guessing Terminate Power, Delay, Remote, LED, and some type of synchronization, but I'm damned if I can figure out what settings the B&W wants.

    I hear what you are saying about getting a nice 68-pin drive in there, but I wan't to flog this horse a little longer. My small success has encouraged me to try to learn more about jumpers.

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    With lots of good advice I've gotten an Ultra ATA drive working in my G3 B&W. The slow old IBM SCSI drive also works now, with both an Apple/ATTO UL3D and an Adaptec 29160N. My remaining problem is the Seagate Cheetah 80 pin SCA hard drive.

    Seagate thinks that termination power may be the problem. Does anyone know whether the B&W rev. 2 machines feed term. pwr. through PCI/SCSI cards?
    I've heard that Macs with SCSI on the board do this, but haven't found clear info on the machines with optional SCSI.

    One of the 80 pin/ 68 pin LVD adapters that I have has a jumper labeled "TPR". This is promising, but I have no instructions with this adapter. I do not know if jumping it makes TPR go to or from the hard drive. I'd guess from, if I had to, and not only is that not what I need, but I'm guessing the 5 volts in the wrong place is a lot if you are a chip, and I do not want to fry anything. Does anyone have experience with termination power in B&Ws, particularly with SCA adapters.

    I know a number of people have advised staying away from the 80 pin drives, but I'm learning, and I'll reward myself for getting the old Cheetah going (or just give up and get a nice 68 pin drive anyway).
    Thanks.

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