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Thread: B&W G4/400 won't boot

  1. #1
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    G'day, gents and ladies. I recently moved overseas, and upon opening the boxes, my B&W G4/400 won't boot. I got the legendary 9500 booting and driving twin 20s like a champ. It is now almost 8 years old, and still uses the original 2GB Seagate Hawk.

    The Yose, on the other hand, won't start up. The power supply is getting correct power (through a transformer, so it's not 220V/50Hz), the fan comes on, the mobo LEDs light up, but - get this - it won't send power to the mobo IDE bus devices (CD and old boot drive) when the IDE cable is plugged in. The CD tray will only open when the IDE cable is unplugged from the mobo.

    I tried disconnecting the UltraATA SIIG card that runs my new 120GB Maxtor completely, electrically and UltraATA cables, and still nothing. So, praying my big new drive was not hosed, I removed the SIIG card, pulled a dysfunctional ATi Rage128 out of the all-six-slots-full-9500, popped it in, (keep in mind the 9500 is still running 8.6), and lo! All partitions of the Maxtor showed up on the Desktop.

    Then I tried the reverse; unplugged the power and IDE cable from the IDE bus devices, and tried with only the Maxtor. Both the Maxtor and Fujitsu have bootable OSX system folders on them; I was double-booting to set up the Maxtor right beforew packing it up.

    So, I'm just trying to get it booted. Suggestions?

    So, here's everything in the Yose:
    768 MB RAM
    XLR8 400 Mhz G4
    OEM (I think) Rage128 card
    SIIG UltraATA card

    mobo IDE bus: Master:Fujitsu 20GB drive
    Slave: CD-ROM

    SIIG internal bus: Maxtor 120GB

  2. #2
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    ?You'll want to do Open Firmware resets as you go. The only bad thing with an OF reset is it sets the startup disk to defaults which is bus0 drive0 partition1. If there isn't a drive there with a bootable system then it will go searching. I most times have to put a CD in my B&W and boot to it to reset the startup disk 'cause it never seems to find other drives.

    ?OF reset: Hold the Command+Option+O+F keys during startup. At the '>' prompt type:

    >reset-nvram
    Return
    >set-defaults
    Return
    >reset-all
    Return
    and your computer will resume startup.

    Disk warrior.
    Boot the installer CD for OSX and run Repair Permissions on your boot disk.

    ?Check for any firmware updates for the Siig? They have several revisions at Siig that can be hard to locate. Last time I had to put in a support request and they emailed the newest revision to me. (still had to return the card as the firmware was thrashed)

    ?I would not expect a problem with multiple system folders. I run at least three on every computer and I know Gregory runs even more than that.

    Rick

    Quis Custodiet Custodes Ipsos?

    [This message was edited by ricks on Wed October 08, 2003 PT at 8:11.]

  3. #3
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    Do you have any power cable splitters you can use, and try to re-route power to your drives from another line? That is what I have had to learn to do on mine.

  4. #4
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    OK, I have tried the mobo resets in the Service Source manual, and have swapped in and out known good video cards, boot drives, IDE cables.

    Following the Troubleshooting Guide in the SS manual for no video, no boot chime, but LEDs on, drives spinning, fan spinning, we come to checking the J25 jumper block.

    Here's a question: if this computer has a black jumper block for its original 300MHz G3, but it has a 400Mhz G4 ZIF installed, how do I tell the mobo about the upgrade if I don't have the original ZIF?

    I bet this is what is causing problems. The mobo is expecting a 300MHz processor, and is finding a 400MHz one. I don't have the jumper block for a 400MHz G3, and I don't have the 300MHz ZIP chip.
    Help!

  5. #5
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    I proceeded to read thru the manual located on the phat Daystar site for the XLR8 MAChSpeed ZIF G4 upgrade, and it mentions firmware updates to remove the block that prevents G4s from working.

    Latest question: does a CUDA or PRAM reset do anything to the firmware? If it does, I think I have to put a G3 ZIF back in to get the computer booted so I can update the firmware.

  6. #6
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    Anything you do in Open Firmware does not affect that "other" firmware that was needed to upgrade to OS 9, and which blocks/unblocks using a G4.

    I've gone from G3/350 to G3/450 (clocked to 499) and now G4/500 without ever touching any of the sealed or any other jumpers on the motherboard. The PL G3 had a "dial" and the XLR8 G4 has jumpers of its own.

    Resetting Open Firmware is a good thing.

    Is J29 the sealed jumpers with tape over it? I'll have to look it up - in fact, I'll have to find the manual, have a link?

  7. #7
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    ?The motherboard jumper sets motherboard speed, you will want to leave them stock no matter what cpu you install. Those jumpers would change all the motherboard bus speeds, upping the speed from there has been singularly unsuccessful when tried on the B&W model computer.

    ?Your XLR8 zif has several jumpers which set just the cpu speed ratio. That is the appropriate place to set your clock speed.

    ?First thing to always consider when a B&W doesn't boot is the ram. B&Ws are notorious for failing marginal ram, and even the crap Apple shipped didn't meet Apple's minimum spec for operation in a 100 MHZ computer, especially in OSX which uses ram much harder than OS9 ever did.

    ?I would suggest pulling all ram down to the one best one, the fastest one, while you test. Even switch that around as needed.

    Rick

    Quis Custodiet Custodes Ipsos?

  8. #8
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    Dear Mactheripper,

    Now, first of all what worries me is: what kind of revision Yose you've got? Rev. 1 or the Rev. 2 with the improved IDE controller (ending #...402)?

    I don't recall the Yose coming out with anything larger than 9/12 GB hard disks from factory.
    If your Fujitsu 20GB is an OEM replacement on a Rev. 1 Yose, it's very likely to suffer from corrupted data on "read" activity. But, .... you should know all this, don't you?

    Now, you say that all the leds are showing up properly on the logic board: thus it is getting the proper power supply.

    Like Rick and TZ, I doubt it has anything to do with your XLR8 card, as I too remember it had the processor's speed jumpers on it: no need to fidle with those on the logic board.

    Mmmmm..... I gather you aren't getting any startup sound from it, aren't you?
    If your on-board IDE controller doesn't get any reads on the Master designated drive on the Primary ATA bus, due to the corruption issues, your Yose should still be able to boot from the one on the SIIG card.

    It is very unlikley the PCI bus isn't recognized by the ol' Grackle chip, *unless* there's a memory problem which prevents the Grackle to go anyfurther on the booting up sequence.
    But then, you should hear the typical "breaking -glass" sound.

    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> Latest question: does a CUDA or PRAM reset do anything to the firmware? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    The PRAM reset forces the BIOS to reconstruct the hardware peripheral tree, by sending signals along the PCI bridge (it queries both the Memory Controller and the Paddington chip).
    The CUDA "switch" - from it's name - it's just a centrlized circuit switch for the whole logic board. It forces all circuits to be set in the "open" position (kind of turning off the light in the whole appartment).
    This forces all main circuits to reset into their defualt settings. To my little knowledge, it does NOT affect the BIOS (System ROM).
    However, I may be wrong on that one ...... FYI, maybe reading back, through this article, will refesh you memories about it and give you a few more hints.

    Out of pure curiosity - and just in case it gives us more hints - can you post back the in-printing on those DIMMs you've got soldered on your SDRAM modules? With those numbers, we could double check for you weather those RAM sticks are good or not.

    This is what the CUDA controls on your machine as per Apple Developer Notes:
    Cuda IC

    The Cuda IC provides several system functions, including

    <UL TYPE=SQUARE><LI>management of soft system resets
    <LI>management of the real-time clock
    <LI>software control of the power supply
    <LI>I2C bus control for Cuda (master), four DIMM slots, and clock buffer[/list]

    Also, your machine has the Primary PCI bus arbitration performed by the Apple Gated Clocks II IC. That clock has notoriously showed issues in the past and with the Rev. 2 machines it was different.

    By all means, try the OF reset as Rick and TZ suggested you.

    That all I can think of at the moment. Keep us adjurned on the symptoms.
    I'd like to pull this together for you.

    Good luck.

    Costa

    Take it to the Max, Mac!

  9. #9
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    Seems really strange - could it be something as simple as something that might have been "bumped" during the shipping...? or broken or twisted during the shipping process?...

    Odd...

    Chris

  10. #10
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    Just in case you were still checking for a Rev 1 or 2. Look here.

    Randy

  11. #11
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    Actually, Ripper knows he has a rev1, that is why he has an installed ATA133 host card.

    Rick

    Quis Custodiet Custodes Ipsos?

  12. #12
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    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> The motherboard jumper sets motherboard speed, you will want to leave them stock no matter what cpu you install. Those jumpers would change all the motherboard bus speeds, upping the speed from there has been singularly unsuccessful when tried on the B&W model computer. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    Not to change the subject, but FWIW, when I upgraded my BW to a G4 500 (used 7400, I think an OEM Apple ZIF), I did change MB jumpers. Broke the warranty label, pulled the factory jumper block and reconfigured for 500. As I recall there was a firmware update first, but no other software involved... Even overclocked to 550, which has been great once I got a bigger heatsink. Running 10.3, 10.2.6, 9.2.2, and Server 10.2.6 on different volumes. Very, very solid.

    Beginners luck? Or is there something different about my BW (rev 1) or my G4 ZIF? Does any of this effect ripper's problems/options?

    __________________

    Charlie Don't Surf!

  13. #13
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    Trying to type fast so I don't drain Gurus bandwidth... hehe...

    OK. First things first. rwm and Costa - I have a confirmed Rev 1. It was free, so no jibes about that... hehe.

    ricks - I will try the RAM elimination next. I have two sticks of Crucial RAM that should be the latest and greatest; I'll copy down the numbers and post them. I already tried cutting down to one stick of that RAM, but not moving it from slot to slot, and I can't remember if I had reset the mobo before I did that or not.

    I know these machines are notorious for RAM issues. The weird thing about this is that the machine worked perfectly in July. When I got it, (unclemac)it already had the G4/400 ZIF, with the firmware update that lets it run it, no issues. The Fujitsu 20GB drive and CDROM were running together on the IDE bus, not the UltraATA bus that has had most of the Rev 1 issues.

    In fact, I confirmed that plugging the new Maxtor into the UltraATA bus causes the system to hang. That is why, as ricks remembers, I got the SIIG card. The Machine ran trouble-free and rock-solid since the day I put that card in. So the config I'm trying to boot was working great up until I shipped it. Obviously, loose stuff or a straight-up mobo break leapt to mind. I am again rechecking all connections for integrity before the next round of T/S, you can be sure.

    I know the card and drive are still good, b/c I can use them in my 9500 and read/write works great. (5.1MB/s - woo-hoo!)

    Thanks for the quick posts and suggestions, gents. I'll let you know how it goes tonight.

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