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Thread: My new Mac won't install Jag. HELP!

  1. #21
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    There's always the online Apple Dev Doc Notes.
    PowerMac

  2. #22
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    Many are convinced that since my modem isn't being detected in the Hardware Test, that it's bad...therefore causing my Jag install to fail. There are others who think that since I ONLY get a KP while so much as BROWSING the Jag CD, that it could be the CD or my Superdrive. Does anyone here buy into that?

    Someone suggested I try a different Rom drive. But does it have to be a certain kind? I won't have an "Apple" one until tomorrow. If I try this other rom drive and it works... I'll just buy a new SD. If it doesn't work. Than I'll suspect the modem, mobo, or CPU and I'll have to take it in. I don't even USE the modem.

    I can't hardly believe it would be the mobo or CPU because the machine performed flawlessly under 10.1.5 and OS9.

    I've pretty much ruled out the ram. I'm sure there is "better" ram you can buy, but this Kingston ram should work... and so should that other ram I bought, which I've previously installed Jag on another Mac with.

    Thanks for the help so far!
    J

  3. #23
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    I suspect now my Superdrive or my Firmware. In my Sys Profiler, it says my Boot ROM is 4.33f2. But what the hell firmware version IS that??

    Then on Apple's site... it says that the last version for the G4 was the 4.1.9, but has now been replaced with 4.2.8. But in other things I've read, that update is only for the MDD's.

    Bottom line... what firmware should I have, and if the WRONG firmware is installed on this machine.. can I reinstall the right one?

    Thanks.

    Jason

  4. #24
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    As you can see from this, http://docs.info.apple.com/article.html?artnum=86117 , all QS and newer should be OK regarding firmware.

    (in case that mess does not work, it's doc 86117)

    As Apple does not have a link to a file, not sure what/how you could reflash... Anyone?

    [This message has been edited by newbie (edited 18 March 2003).]

    [This message has been edited by newbie (edited 18 March 2003).]

  5. #25
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    FWIW, don't discount Gregory's memory concern too lightly.

    It does not happen that often, but memory weirdness *does* happen, and more in Jag than ever before, so I read.

    Our 24/7 email server had run almost flawlessly for a couple years, then out of the blue starts throwing type 11 errors. After trial and error, moving and reseating, I swap out the wonky stick with a fresh one from Crucial, and the errors never return. This while running 9.2. And that stick is working just fine in another tower (for now anyway...).

    Not sure I would have believed that memory fails while purring along (or at least makes a Mac unhappy) if I did not see it with my own eyes.

  6. #26
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    And also.. i get a kernal panic just BROWSING the Jag CD. So, if I boot to it to GET the right firmware... then I get the KP. So, I basically can't install ANYTHING from the Jag CD. I need to DL it. But WHICH one is the right one? you're saying that 4.33f2 has to be right? and that I don't need it? The thing is, which version IS 4.33? 4.3.3? That one isn't even documented on Apples site.

    Jason

  7. #27
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    There is a helpful article on MacIntouch about "Bad RAM" and a note from an engineer about how and why memory can gradually degrade and fail. Which is why servers use error correcting and redundant memory as well as the ability to "map out" a block of memory RAM if it fails.

  8. #28
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    Gregory... I understand what you're saying. And I'm not ruling it out entirely. However, I just don't think it's the ram. I could be wrong. It would just seem HIGHLY unlikely that my stock "Apple 512mb stick", which pass the Dimm test... won't allow me to install Jag. Plus, I have TWO 512mb sticks from my previous machine that I installed Jag just fine on, so they should work. So, the odds that it's like 5 different sticks of mem that I have, are slim at this point I think.

    I'm suspicious about the firmware version that I'm running. It says I have vers 4.33f2.

    Are there any quicksilver 2002 owners here who can tell me what version THEY show in the profiler?? That would be extremely helpful to me.

    J

  9. #29
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    Apple Knowledge Base links are a pain. When you get a long link from a search, and want to post a link that will work,

    http://docs.info.apple.com/article.html?artnum=nnnnn

    Then put the article number at the end.
    http://docs.info.apple.com/article.html?artnum=86117

  10. #30
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    Part of the issue with RAM is that some of it is/was made to work with systems running, say, 350-500MHz but not at 933MHz.

    So I'm not sure I'd feel as safe with same RAM from your earlier machine. It might work, it might be the issue. I'd want more than DIMM First Aid, which only says that the chips were manufactured properly - almost, they do look on the slow side and not what I'd have bought, especially as highest quality RAM was dirt cheap for the last 2 yrs.

    Here is the page on Crucial 512MB PC133 QS/933 $89.


    [This message has been edited by Gregory (edited 17 March 2003).]

  11. #31
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    I just got off the phone w/ an Apple Genius. And he says that my KP just browsing the CD could EASILY be the firmware. He said that I should DL and install the 4.2.8 firmware update as the firmware will self correct. He is almost convinced it's the firmware on my machine that isn't right.

    And apperantly, if I install the wrong firmware... the machine will still work. But this guy is almost sure if I install the RIGHT firmware, Jag should install.

    I won't know until I get home tonight though.

    Oh, and once I get this resolved... better ram is in order as I'll use my machine for "pro audio recording" which relies HEAVILY on memory.

    J

  12. #32
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    I'm glad to hear you've found a solution (and getting some memory - before prices go up even higher as production has moved from SDRAM to DDR now). The Firmware even controls memory timing issues I think.

    how did the wrong firmware get in there again?

  13. #33
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    Gregory.. he didn't know for sure that my Firmware was bad. He just said to reinstall it again. However, he couldn't tell me just WHICH firmware to install, or which firmware I SHOULD show as installed. Do my system discs have the firmware for my machine on them? If so, where?

    Is it THIS one? http://docs.info.apple.com/article.html?artnum=88009

    or is it THIS? http://docs.info.apple.com/article.html?artnum=75131

    which as you can see upon further reading... the QS's do not require this
    update.

    I'm very confused.

    Also.. I see that there are MANY people having this EXACT same problem on the Apple Discussion board.
    http://discussions.info.apple.com/We...0530@.3bbd4013


    So far... NO ONE knows how to fix it, and Apple is stumped.

    Great.

    J

    [This message has been edited by jpoprock (edited 18 March 2003).]

  14. #34
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    I read the thread, nothing there. I didn't find any firmware posted for the 2002 QS machines. I would do a reset open firmware and try some Crucial RAM.

    Reset OF:

    command option O F at startup.
    reset-nvram
    set-defaults
    reset-all

    You've used Drive Setup to initialize your drive? That will allow you to run Test for the whole length of the drive if need be.

    Rulled out master/slave or bad/loose cable. We had someone who had a SCSI drive that didn't like one of the jumper pins so he couldn't use ID #1 on the drive - that was a hard one also.

    Can you try installing Jag to FireWire? on another computer and move the drive or use FireWire Target Disk mode? Those stink as "solutions" though.

    stumped

  15. #35
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    Gregory,

    I found some more ram I can try to use. So, I will tonight. I have my old G4 466 still, So, I'm gonna try to install Jag to it. I know it will work though. I'm suspect of my Firmware though. Oh, I've also already done the open firmware too.
    Jason

  16. #36
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    I have not ruled out a bad IDE cable. In fact, I'm not sure HOW to rule it out. I have an IDE cable I can use. But is it as simple as just uplugging one end from the board, and the HDD, and plugging the new one in? It's a brand new IDE cable from a HDD. I just never used the cable.

    Jason

  17. #37
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    Have a QS 733 running Server 10.2.4. Firmware has never been upgraded, per Apple's spec.

    Current info from ASP: 4.2.5f1

    If you can get ahold of the correct firmware, you stil have to get the box to recognize the installer (or whatever you call the FW updater), and run from OS 9. Unless something has changed recently, Apple does not give you a way to downgrade firmware. Although there are ways...

    I would swap the cable (and the HD, too - one at a time) before I would move onto optical drive or worry about CPU/MB. Free and fast since you have the parts to test with, right?

  18. #38
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    Tonight I'm going to install Jag to the HDD, but I'm gonna install it on my old 466. Then I'm gonna put that HDD into my 933 and see if it works. If it does, then that tells me it's a problem w/ my installer and my computer, not the OS and the computer.

    I've verfied from other 933 users that they show their firmware as 4.3.3f2. Same as mine. Weird. Just how DO you downgrade? Keep in mind, that I'm able to install OS9 and 10.1.5 just fine. So I can reinstall those just do some "work" on the firmware.

    Jason

  19. #39
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    Guys, tonight I installed Jag on my old 466, but using the HDD from my 933. I installed Jag without a hitch. So, it's not the CD, or my mem(used the 933 mem just to see).

    I then put the HDD in my 933 and booted ONCE to Jag. It seemed to be working fine.

    Then I decided to take it one step further and do an update. THEN I got the kernal panic. Rebooted, and was never able to reboot to Jag again without getting this kernal panic.

    Now, I think I've 100% ruled out it's my HDD, my mem, and the CD. The vid card is stock, and there is nothing else in the Mac that shouldn't be. I don't even have a modem.

    Apple doesn't list a firmware update for this machine. But you can't tell me that it's not the firmware. It almost has to be.

    I've installed OS9 and OSX 10.1.5 and it works fantastic.

    I guess I'll just have to stick with 10.1.5 and be happy. This sucks. Thanks Apple.

    Jason

  20. #40
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    ?There is no practical difference between your 933 and my 867. They are identical in every way except for a minor change in the CPU jumpers that set your tiny bit higher quality cpu chip to 933.

    ?I have yet to ever have a Kernel Panic on my Quicksilver. I've run absolutely every version of OSX that has come out since 10.0.4 including every server version.

    ?You have something wrong in your hardware. The roms, PRAMs, Firmware, NVRAM, all are possible. The CPU is possible. I would find out if there are any shops around that REALLY know how to test a Mac. To do so they may need to have spare parts to do swap testing. THat rules out most tiny PC/Mac mixed repair shops. The little shops will end up swapping stuff you don't need and since they don't stock those parts you'll end up buying anything they get as part of their test process.

    ?I sure wouldn't blame Apple since you have no idea what was the history on that QS. It could have had any kind of past problem. And 99.99% of all Quicksilver owners don't have any problems.

    ?Wish there was something else to do. You've run the ram tests I gave you and reinstalled in another computer and it still can't handle the boot rom on that drive. Time for a shop.

    Rick

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