Page 1 of 2 1 2 LastLast
Results 1 to 20 of 30

Thread: Beige G3 lost drive?(long)

  1. #1
    Join Date
    May 2002
    Posts
    13

    Default

    I'm wondering if my hard drive is shot or my slave setup is just not correct? Can I get the data back on the almost full 4GB drive?
    My setup is a Beige G3 minitower. I bought it on ebay and it smoked past my 6300CD. I used it for several months without incident, then one day it confronted me with a blinking questionmarked disk. After about 5 seconds the SE30 Icon with smile came on and the Mac booted normally from there.
    I ran Norton Disk Dr. and disk first aid as well as virus scan. All said drive is fine. Over the next few weeks the Mac did this once in a while-BUT- about a month or so ago I had to force restart the Mac with keboard before it went to the boot process and something new- A 2 SECOND BEEP-after the startup chime. Still the software told me the disk was fine-other than some minor bad resource forks.
    Four days ago the dreaded question Disk popped up after the chime and beep- but this time it didn't go away.
    Technical Info: G3/300 832MB ram(according to Sys Profiler) CD/Zip "Rom Revision:$77D.40F2" and in the PCI's: slot$A1 is a scsi Apple53C875Card Model:NCR,875, card revision:3, Vendor ID:1000, next-"Network":Built in ethernet card-then Slot$C1 display card:3Dfx,Voodoo3, model:Voodoo3 3000 revision:1, vendoe ID:121A-then "Video":Built-in display card.
    Attached to the scsi Apple53C875Card PCI card with a long cable are two drives identified in the profiler as: SCSI Bus 1. At ID=4 is:"hard drive", Driver version: 8.1, Mac OS partitions:1, removable:no, vendor:Quantum Revision #:LXY4 Poduct ID:XP32275W, Unformatted Size:2.11GB and at ID=0 is a Hard drive, Driver Version:Not Available, Mac OS Partitions:0, Removeable:No, vendor:Quantum, Revision #:880P, Product ID:Viking 4.5 WSE, Unformatted size:0, "No disk inserted","Note:Not Mounted"
    Now when the problem would not go away I physically switched the drives in the case and nothing changed. So I started up via G3 CD and installed the System Software onto the slave drive and changed it to my startup drive. It works fine other than the 2 second beep at startup. The original HD doesn't come up on desktop-although the sys profile says the drive is there physically. Drive setup says the disk is there but says "<No Disk> SCSI Bus:1 ID:0 LUN:0 ". Shortly before sending this post I completely unhooked the orig drive and the 2 sec. beep is gone.I also unhooked all cables from the motherboard and made sure EVERY card was seated good, took out battery and held down the reset button for a full minute.
    Is the disk shot? If so, how can I get some of the info off of it and what is a good drive to replace it with?
    Thanks for any time anyone spends on helping me!!!!

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Jan 2001
    Location
    Mobius Strip
    Posts
    13,045

    Default

    The first thing I would do would be to replace the battery, zap the PRAM, do a reset of Open Firmware.

    Hold down command option PR for 2-3 boot cycles from a cold boot.
    Command Option OF and then
    "set-defaults"
    "reset-all"

    My first choice in disk utility is Disk Warrior.

    I don't see what your OS is but Norton 4/5 are notoriously bad while 6.03 is fine (and you can go to OWC and pick up Norton SystemWorks for $5!!).

    It may look long but a list of line items, even paste the text details from Apple Profile is easier to read and scan the info.

    On the memory, your max is 3 x 256MB for 768MB total installed. If you have VM turned on you want to turn that off.

    have you checked out the G3 Zone on www.xlr8yourmac.com? Beige G3 upgrades and the other areas are good research and there may be something in the FAQ as to what or why two beeps (is there an online reference for something simple like that? 1st Aid Software had a nice manual with their 1st Aid HFS Kit utility).

    Gregory

  3. #3
    Join Date
    May 2002
    Posts
    13

    Default

    sorry my OS is actually 8.5

  4. #4
    Join Date
    May 2002
    Posts
    13

    Default

    ---OK I tried to reply once but it never showed up. So please bear with me if I screw up and double post.
    The first thing I would do would be to replace the battery, zap the PRAM, do a reset of Open Firmware.Hold down command ...
    --I tried all of these per the many articles I found about doing so. The drive never reappeared.
    My first choice in disk utility is Disk Warrior.
    --I'll try to get it.
    I don't see what your OS is but Norton 4/5 are notoriously bad while 6.03 is fine (and you can go to OWC and pick up Norton SystemWorks for $5!!).
    --I actually have that very disk from OWC, disk editor can't see the disk.
    OS is 8.5
    It may look long but a list of line items, even paste the text details from Apple Profile is easier to read and scan the info.
    --I don't understant what you are sayin gto do here or how? Do you mean with Norton? Please explain as I am a self/internet taught novice at this.

    On the memory, your max is 3 x 256MB for 768MB total installed. If you have VM turned on you want to turn that off.
    --I was really surprised too,but the sys profiler reads: "Built-in memory 832 MB"
    listed is:J3 64MB DIMM, J4 512MB DIMM, J5 256MB DIMM. Virtual memory is off the 512 and 256 cards were bought at OWC also.

    have you checked out the G3 Zone on www.xlr8yourmac.com? Beige G3 upgrades and the other areas are good research and there may be something in the FAQ as to what or why two beeps (is there an online reference for something simple like that? 1st Aid Software had a nice manual with their 1st Aid HFS Kit utility).
    --I have been all through the G3 zone it's a great welth and abundance of info. It's possible that I overlooked the exact topic. I looked for some time with various search terms. I will look for the 1st Aid, thanks.
    Thanks for your help, Robert

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Jan 2001
    Location
    Mobius Strip
    Posts
    13,045

    Default

    Robert,

    Can you look and see what model the Apple53C875Card is?
    Who made it? ATTO or Adaptec? common "name"?

    >>> SCSI Bus 1 ID 4 "hard drive" <<<

    Termination is always first issue, or a loose cable or missing jumper.

    FWB HDT 4.5 has a utility to restore a SCSI drive to defaults (FWB Configure).

    Not enough power getting to the drive?

    Because it works w/o the one drive attached it sounds like replacing the drive might be next. What if you have the bad drive only (properly terminated) and boot from CD? AND remove the 512MB RAM. [Did you tell OWC, or do they ask on web orders, for what system the RAM is going into? That's something the Gurus do to help insure order items are appropriate and will work.)

    The 512MB RAM SHOULD only recognized if at all as 256MB. I have a real issue with the RAM stuff OWC sells. You 'should' see 576MB RAM. Try removing the 512 for starts (though I now suspect you've tried that already).

    Norton 6.0 has trouble with 9.x and OS X but should be okay though I find it needs 200MB (MB, not k) or more at times. Live Update to 6.03.

    When or if I was confronted with this, I would backup, initialize or maybe do a low level format even (zero all data for IDE) using Drive Setup 2.07 which is safe, or Intech HardDisk SpeedTools 3.5 (issues with earlier versions have been fixed). FWB HDT 4.5 is also useful to have around.

    Of course one thing to try is to remove any add-ons like Voodoo and work from built-in video etc.

    Do you have Memory Test turned off? Maybe it is beeping 'cause it knows that 512 DRAM doesn't belong. in fact, I'm surprised it's worked at all.

    What you want is Acme RAM from the Gurus or something that is designed to work in Beige (PC100 10 nanosecond or faster; ram from B&W is fine). Probably looking at $75-85 for 256MB. I'm pretty sure though that OWC is clear about what models the various RAM is designed to go into. ALL the OWC 512's are for some iMac and for G4 systems.

    Considering how hot those 4.5GB drives are, and noise, you might want to look at a narrow 18GB Barracuda - would also be faster. Probably not what you want to hear or do.

    Gregory

    PS: I took what you had posted, pasted into a text editor and then I could isolate the data on your system. Apple system profile does a nice job, text output, that anyone can use to gather most of the info that would help (no need for all the system extensions) and legible and easy to read.

    it's hard to write coherently under pressure in a tiny dialogue box. Sometimes I need to use a word processor, or keep editing.

    [This message has been edited by Gregory (edited 25 May 2002).]

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Jan 2001
    Location
    Mobius Strip
    Posts
    13,045

    Default

    Robert,

    You want people to make it easy for people
    --------------
    Technical Info (according to Sys Profiler):
    G3/300 832MB ram
    Rom Revision:$77D.40F2
    CD/Zip
    slot$A1 is a scsi Apple53C875Card Model:NCR,875, card revision:3, Vendor ID:1000
    Network":Built in ethernet card-then

    Video":Built-in display card

    >>>>>> The critical stuff hard disk drives <<<<<
    Apple53C875Card PCI SCSI (SCSI Bus 1)

    ID=4 :"hard drive", Driver version: 8.1, Mac OS partitions: 1, removable: no, vendor: Quantum Revision #:LXY4 Poduct ID:XP32275W, Unformatted Size:2.11GB

    ID=0 :Hard drive, Driver Version:Not Available, Mac OS Partitions:0, Removeable:No, vendor:Quantum, Revision #:880P, Product ID:Viking 4.5 WSE, Unformatted size:0, "No disk inserted","Note:Not Mounted"

    Drive setup [reports] "<No Disk> SCSI Bus:1 ID:0 LUN:0 ".
    ----------------------

    Just an idea.... I dislike these tiny dialogue boxes like the plague. i wish they were larger or resize.

    Gregory

    [This message has been edited by Gregory (edited 25 May 2002).]

  7. #7
    Join Date
    May 2002
    Posts
    13

    Default

    The Apple53C875Card is an "ATTO Express PCI PSC"

    I checked every connector in the computer. I don't know anything about termination on the hard drive itself-Just plug it in and Go. No?

    Where do I get FWB HDT 4.5 utility and will it recover files from the drive?

    The original drive must be getting power because I put another drive in it's place and it worked.I was given an old Micropolis 8.5 GB from a server at work. (It is a boat anchor of a drive but I set it next to the case and hooked the cables to it.) The drive was on the desktop when I restarted. I even used drive setup to reformat it from PC to Mac and loaded OS 8.5 then made it my startup and did a "shut Down" then cold started. Everything went fine and both drives were present on desktop. with my original slave as the slace again. This really leads me to believe the Original Quantum 4.5GB drive is just shot. Now it's a matter of getting data off of it. I don't understand what went wrong because it worked fine for so long.Could a virus render a drive that useless? (viruscan found nothing during the questionmark disk appearences)

    When I have the old drive hooked up (by itself--ie no slave) weather the 512 MB ram is in or not the Question mark disk appears.
    I bought the 512 because I read an article I think on TheNerds site saying it worked in the minitower Beige.

    Live Update to 6.03.>>> Will do!

    I would backup, initialize or maybe do a low level format...>>>I did backup most data but the last several weeks of stuff I just didn't get around to it. I never thought of rezeroing. "hindsight is 20/20" they say!

    I tried removing things and different combos of removing things. I am pretty confident the drive went bad now. But "Why?" is the big question.

    I did have memory test off but it worked fine like that before the questionmark disk appeared. It never beeped before with the 512 only after the drive stopped booting did it start the 2-second-long beep after the startup chime. Now it on again and no beep when the Original drive is unhooked even with 512MB ram in.

    Is there anything bigger than a 18GB Barracuda that would require little more than inserting and formatting with drive setup and using the G3 CD to install all software?
    Thanks again, Robert!

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Jan 2001
    Location
    Mobius Strip
    Posts
    13,045

    Default

    The ATTO card sounds like this and would have 68-pin and 50-pin internal and 68-pin VHDC external (only one 68-pin connector can be used). UW 68-pin drives need a separate terminator on the drive. Even if not you STILL need to have the end of any SCSI chain terminated, even narrow 50-pin drives have a jumper, and it still sounds like this is part of the problem.

    FWB will low level format SCSI and do a lot of other things but not help you recover data. www.fwb.com and there is a lite and full version but most people settle for Apple's or www.intechusa.com (Intech SpeedTools is sold by MacGurus also).

    "Slave" refers to IDE drives (master and slave also require different jumper settings on the drive) - so when you say slave, make sure that is what you want and are using, otherwise it tends to confuse the issue.

    The "?" on startup is only saying that the "path" to the boot device no longer does. There has to be a blessed system, the path to which is stored in PRAM and a small boot loader (on the boot blocks).

    Reselecting the system volume using Startup Disk Control Panel, moving the Finder out and back into the system folder, moving the system file out and back into the system folder, updating the disk driver, reinitializing, running Disk Warrior - each of those can help.

    No one that sells RAM, and I've never read or heard of 512MB RAM working, and I've read 100's of posts on Apple forums just about upgrades, as well as www.xlr8yourmac.com where a lot of custom upgraders would mention it and never once - 768 IS the max RAM with 3 x 256MB.

    Simple is to use IDE drives and PCI IDE controller. There are no new narrow drives other than 18G and beware of SCA-80 pin drives but they CAN when done RIGHT with good quality adapter use just one alone.

    Take a look at the page of adapters and terminators for SCSI and what a 68-pin and 50-pin drive look like by following the link on one of the Seagate drives to www.seagate.com and look at the installation and setup guides (pdf, html) to get an idea. Then decide if you want narrow or wide drives - or IDE.

    Assuming you have 68-pin support, that would offer 40MB/s and you could pick up cable and terminator from the Initio page for $49. (LVD Twisted-Pair Cable w Inline Terminator (4-connectors, 3 for drives)

    Those boat anchors were great in their day.

    Gregory

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Jul 2001
    Location
    Florida
    Posts
    1,044

    Default

    Fluke ,In your first post you stated... "Now when the problem would not go away I physically switched the drives in the case and nothing changed."
    well, something did change...you now have a terminated drive placed
    before an unterminated drive. Either put the drives back into the original
    configuration (simplest), or terminate only the last drive on the chain. Then we can work on getting your drive to mount...hang in there...Dave

  10. #10
    Join Date
    May 2002
    Posts
    13

    Default

    Macaholic--I put the drive back where it was and again we have the 2-second-long beep just prior to bootup but after initial chime.

    Gregory--You have the ATTO card on the nose.

    I am hesitant to download programs yet as I have only a GV V92/56K analog modem and my providor only allows at best a 40K connection. I might be able to DL at work.(T1)
    I don't know how to explain the ram-but it works!
    ...
    The "slave drive" as I am referring to it is my original secondary drive and has a couple jumpers.(now that I put it back in I can't tell where they are though. I'll check next time I open her up)

    Thanks Robert

  11. #11
    Join Date
    May 2002
    Posts
    13

    Default

    Oh Yea?

    Macaholic--I know about external terminators but what does an internal look like? Is it in the cable, connector, or on the drive itself?

  12. #12
    Join Date
    Jul 2001
    Location
    Florida
    Posts
    1,044

    Default

    there are sets of pins on the back of scsi drives which are used to select
    ID for the drives / and termination on/off. The last drive on the chain must be terminated using these jumpers. If you physically switched these drives without changing terminaton via these pins / jumpers the 1'st
    drive will be terminated, and end your scsi chain.
    It sounds to me that you may have a few different issues and eliminating
    each possibility- RAM, termination, etc is the only way I know to diagnose
    and repair...

  13. #13
    Join Date
    May 2002
    Posts
    13

    Default

    Macaholic- Now I'm seeing clearer but the original "main" HD has two jumpers on it's set of prongs like so= :j:::j:::::::::: (that is what it looks like j=jumper) and the "slave" or secondary HD has no jumpers.
    It also sounds like the drive itself is making the beeping noise-not the internal Mac speaker.
    Also now that I have the drive back in it's original place it is not physically the last drive on the cable but the first then an empty connector and finally the "slave" drive where it was at the top, back of the G3 Minitower case over the power supply box.
    again the Sys Profiler can tell me the drive is there and what kind of Quantam it is but it says no disk inserted with an exclamation point inside a yellow triangle.

  14. #14
    Join Date
    Jan 2001
    Location
    Mobius Strip
    Posts
    13,045

    Default

    SCSI Controller ------ [DRIVE 1: ID 2] ----- [DRIVE 2: ID 0: WITH TERMINATED JUMPER]

    7 6 5 4 3 2 1
    : : : : : : :

    Jumper on "7" would be terminator pins
    Pins 1-4 would be used to set ID from 0-6

    Controller is always ID 7.

    Almost every manufacturer has on line diagram of the pins and jumpers.

    When using SCSI, ID matters. When using ATA/IDE drives, there are "master" "master only" and "slave" drives. Unix land, the IDE slave is in the middle of the controller and end "master" and master provides termination functionality. Under OS X it is ideal to put the system on master drive. SCSI doesn't have that limitation.

    Nice to know you can use 68-pin drive if need be, more options, and Miles Cable kit would work fine and allow for 40MB/s thruput.

    Gregory

  15. #15
    Join Date
    Jul 2001
    Location
    Florida
    Posts
    1,044

    Default

    Well, let me take my foot out my mouth and apologize.....as your drives are
    68 pin wide drives and should recieve termination thru the scsi host
    controller card. You may be correct that the beep is coming from the drive itself,some drives have error messages of their own. Do you still get the beep when starting from your CD? Again,my apologies!

  16. #16
    Join Date
    Jan 2001
    Location
    Mobius Strip
    Posts
    13,045

    Default

    ... that controller has both 50-pin AND 68-pin internal connectors.

    for what internal terminator (or any for that matter) look like take a look at http://www.granitedigital.com/ (seem to have photos of more cables, adapters and terminators - but same equipment and part numbers as MacGurus).

  17. #17
    Join Date
    May 2002
    Posts
    13

    Default

    macaholic- Yes the beep is there even after setting the G3 CD as startup and cold starting! Also there is Really-no need to apologize as I am quite novice at this-you were right though because the Mac now is using the shorter 50 pin (IDE?) connector, and the drives only have those.
    The 68 pin connector on the ATTO card is empty and the SCSI cable off the motherboard just runs to the top of the computer and is empty. If I understand it correctly I cannot hook-up my external CD burner and an internal SCSI HD at the same time, on the Beige G3!
    Does that ATTO card mean I could go ahead and add a SCSI hard drive at the same time as the 50 pin drive off the card?
    Or would I be better off just replacing the drive that is fried with a 50 pin. The old test drive I got from work is 50 pin and it worked great as secondary and as only drive (see previous post).

    Guys-I am still up in arms as to how to mount that invisible drive and possibly get info off of it I need.

  18. #18
    Join Date
    Jan 2001
    Location
    Mobius Strip
    Posts
    13,045

    Default

    We're still not certain which drive has the termination pins jumpered.

    You can certainly use internal and external drives on the Beige, no matter what you do with the ATTO connector.

    The ATTO has one limitation, you can't use both internal and external *68-pin* conectors at the same time. If you use the 50 pin internal then don't use 68-pin internal or that will slow down the 68-pin drive.

    At this point, you have one drive that works. Separate the two drives so one is using the motherboard 50-pin connector or use an external drive case. Make sure both drives are terminated.

    Probably want to invest in a new reliable drive to transfer the files to. You said you wanted 36GB. I'd suggest getting a 68-pin drive and the Miles Cable kit. Otherwise, PCI IDE and ATA 40GB drive for $120-175.

    Would be useful now and for regular use to have Disk Warrior - never want to have to need it.

    SCSI drives need termination. 50-pin is a jumper pin. 68-pin drives need a device.

  19. #19
    Join Date
    Jul 2001
    Location
    Florida
    Posts
    1,044

    Default

    Well, I'm still a bit confused, but if I understand correctly the Atto card has nothing attached....then why not connect the failing drive to the 50 pin connector on the card isolating it from the internal bus....just a thought

  20. #20
    Join Date
    May 2002
    Posts
    13

    Default

    Macaholic- Actually the hard drives are running off the ATTO card via a (IDE?) cable with three separate 50-pin connectors at various locations.
    One connector is about 10-12 inches from card the next is just about 2 in. fronm that and the last is about 5 inches later and is the end of the cable.
    The original "slave" drive is at the first connector where it was originally (in the spare front bay) but it is now the startup disk. The original "main" HD, with no jumpers, (NOW USELESS) is at the very last connector at the end of the cable. This is the way they were for about five months, four of those months working fine just like that.
    The 50-pin connectors on the motherboard are used: 1 for the internal Zip and the other for the internal CD drive.
    The inrternal motherboard SCSI is the only connector NOT being used. It is this unused connector I meant in my last post, I thought could not be used if I used External SCSI devices.
    Sorry if I seem to be confusing the issue. All the IDE , 50, 68-pin, terminator talk gets jarbled up in my head when I think too fast.
    Thanks for hangin' in there with me.
    Robert

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •