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Thread: IDE troubles

  1. #1
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    After hooking up my two new IDE's in my Quicksilver, I formatted them both with HDST 3.4. On one I installed 9, and on the other X. After updating to 10.1, I changed my startup disk to 9.2.1 on the other drive. Mac restarted as usual, but hung after extentions....

    Turns out the long and short of is, an HDST-formatted X volume needs to be 'taken over' from within HDST on 9. Unfortunately, I cannot seem to mount the X volume to attempt this takeover- none of the utilities can see it and the bus for that drive is invisible to Apple System Profiler. I got my desktop back by reversing master and slave on the two IDE's. Before that, I tried unplugging the power to the drive with X, booting up in 9 and then powering the drive with X back up, but it just froze the desktop..

    I figure there's got to be a way to get this drive back so I can wipe it, and re-install with the Apple driver. Any suggestions?
    George

  2. #2
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    Hi George,
    HDST strikes again.

    Apples strongest drive utility is OS10.1s. It's pretty good. If you unplug the OSX drive, boot the 10 CD and run the CDs Drive Utility on just the bad OS9 disk what happens?

    If Apples utility cn't see the drive I can't think of anything except one of the drive utility programs. FWB, Disk Warrior, TechToolPro.......Most of these are downloadable. I've had great luck with FWBs HDToolkit.

    Rick

  3. #3
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    Yup Rick, this my second run-in with the notorious such'n such. Had I read the notes on Intech's website prior, I would have specially formatted my X volume only with Apple..
    Chalk it up to some more learning the hard way-

    Well, first off- the 9.2.1 volume is fine; it's the hard drive with the X volume I can't see. When it's plugged in, I cannot successfully boot with the 9 volume if the drive with X is the master. But I'll try booting with the X cd now and see if I can at least see the hidden volumes..

  4. #4
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    No go on the X cd- it doesn't see the IDE busses at all..

    The first tip off of this problem was when DiskWarrior crashed when I first tried to clean up the X volume after installation. At some point during numerous reboots, starting up from various cd's, zapping the pram, cuda switch, etc I got the ATA volumes to show up booting from the Diskwarrior cd. I then tried to repair the volume with Disk First Aid but it crashed that too. After that, I pulled the plug on that drive, got things straightened out on the other drives, and discovered the notes on the Intech site about 10.1 not recognizing the HDST driver after installation, and then you're supposed to use the take over feature to rectify that situation...

    Not sure what to try now.
    The funny thing is X was working- it just didn't want to restart back to the 9 volume..

  5. #5
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    Ain't you got fun!
    The take over capabilities are really strong with FWB also. My only complaint with FWB when solving these problems is that it's hard to get rid of the FWB drivers later on. FWB has a erase driver option I believe. I haven't even installed it on my Quicksilver so I can't easily check that out.

    I'll go fire up the B&W and see what FWB says about erasing.

    Rick

  6. #6
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    Well, after reading the manual on FWB I am not very confident that FWB targeted IDE drives with Hard disk Toolkit very well. Most of the funtionality of the software is aimed at SCSI. Admittedly, IDE drives are pretty 'stupid' compared to the stuff they build into SCSI. Still, not many commands are available when handling a IDE drive.

    Even worse, there doesn't appear to be a 'erase driver' partition command. I know I have seen that somewhere. That's what it seems you need.

    I see that you were able to eventually 'see' the drives with Disk Warrior CD as the boot. You might try to do that again and instead of repair just do a initialize or even a format. If you can do this with Apples Drive Setup so much the better.

    There has to be a way. Failure is not an option, death is not an option.

    Rick

  7. #7
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    What a pickle and yes, I agree, there has to be away. If I can figure out how I got DW to show the drives (both busses), yah- then I could get to drive setup and get back to square one.. everything's backed up, so I don't mind wiping the drive once I get to it!

    Yah know, I do have X on the slower IDE I pulled out of there, and replaced with this faster drive..maybe if I put that one back in, booted from it and then wiped the one with the HDST driver from drive setup in X?

    [This message has been edited by gmidd (edited 03 December 2001).]

  8. #8
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    Hooray! I fixed it..

    It was simple; I booted up from the X cd (making sure my 9.2.1 drive was the master) and then used disk utility to erase the drive with the HDST driver..Took me some doing to get out of the installer though. Ultimately I had to force shutdown, then restart holding the cd eject button.
    Thanks Rick for your suggestions.
    Stay tuned for the next installment of the HDST Chronicles!

  9. #9
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    RIGHT ON!
    Tenacity, mean old cussedness, anger and a sledge hammer will do it everytime.

    Congrats,
    Rick

    One other thing, I would not think current versions of disk utilities such as DiskWarrior could handle fixing OSX drives, either in Classic or while booted into 9. Just the longer file names allowed by OSX would probably cause big problems. I look forward to a OSX version of DiskWarrior.

    [This message has been edited by ricks (edited 03 December 2001).]

  10. #10
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    That describes it exactly right- ya just keep at it til ya finally get it. In this case all of one day plus..
    So I guess the facts are: by booting off the 9 volume as master, I could then put in and start up from the X cd, and from there, use Disk Utility to see the HDST- driven drive and then initialize it. I think(?) I coudn't see the HDST drive with X on it from the 9 drive because....it was not on a mastered drive(?)
    What da ya think, LV?

  11. #11
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    All I can imagine the problem was that the previously Master drive had a bad driver partition. Loading a faulty driver would then make that port invisible to the system. Your solution of reversing the Master/Slave modes of the drive would have probably been about the last thing I would have tried in this situation. Actually, it would have been the last thing, since it worked!

    BTW: An easier technique to ge the CD to eject during boot is to just hold down the mouse button during boot. This is an old Apple trick to eject the floppy that someone sensibly transferred to the CD drive on newer Macs.

  12. #12
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    Doggonnit LV, no one person should know this many things.


    Sheesh, hold the mouse down, I never heard the like before....mumble mumble.
    Rick

    [This message has been edited by ricks (edited 04 December 2001).]

  13. #13
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    Thanks lv - as usual, Gurus RULE!
    _

    I had heard somewhere that a X volume on an IDE is supposed to be on a master drive, but somehow I don't think that's the case. I'll try my install again and test that on the slave drive.
    BTW, What's with the big time fragmentation after system install: Is it just Apple OS installers in general or 9 & X only. In fact, my pre-installed disk from the factory was severely fragged...


    I think this should be said from time to time so we don't take it for granted: Thank God for Macgurus. This is a unique and special place- where people really help each other out with a tremendous and hard-won knowledge base, and without all the nonsense you find at the other sites. Hats off to yus 'rus!

  14. #14
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    My G4-800 was also severely fragged from the factory. Further, after installing any OS, 7.6.1 and up, from CD, I always find severe fragmentation. So, after installing an OS, I always run Disk Warrior, Norton Disk Doctor, Disk First Aid, Norton Speed Disk, and Disk Warrior again before ever booting into that OS. Works best for me. k

  15. #15
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    OMG! All four? Seems just a little Anal-retentive to me! I jump right into trying out the OS and then run Norton's Disk Doctor and then Speed Disk just to be safe afterward. Any OS Update is going to do a bit of fragmentation though. To understand why you need to understand the installers.

    Mac OS 9.x actually runs about 10 different installers. First, it installs OS 9.0. Then the update which first moves the outdated files elsewhere and then installs the updated files. After that it proceeds to install the extras through individual installers that each have their own way of doing things. Finally, on startup, all those updated files get deleted. Hence, a bit of fragmentation¨÷

    OS X goes through quite an different and more extensive process. Files are quickly copied to the drive in compressed format, then expanded in place, deleting the compressed file after each expansion. Finally, the Kernel (Unix lingo for System file) is completely rebuilt to reflect the configuration of the particular system. As a result of this process, there is going to be quite a bit of fragmentation.

    [This message has been edited by lasvegas (edited 06 December 2001).]

  16. #16
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    Well, from what I can tell so far, it does not seem to matter booting a X volume on a slave or master IDE drive... Course- the only reason I tested this was 'cause I coudn't see my striped scsi volume in the X finder or anywhere else on the X volume. Thinking this was a problem to be resolved, I spent the better parts of 2 days trying everything- including switching master & slave on my 2 IDE's. Finally, I got wise, went to rick's thread on OSX General in the forums, found out my 'problem' was softRAID not supported 'til January in X! Oh well, I guess it pays to read the fine print-

    Thanks lv, for the rollout on fragmentation..

    One minor inconvenience I've noticed- perhaps there's an easy solution to this: I've made aliases in my Apple Menu items for each of my partitions. After any restart, the aliases retain their connection to the top level of the partitions, but lose their dislay of the enclosed file structure. In the past, I've made an applescript to 'restore' the lost connection, but that seems the long way around. Maybe I'm missing something here?

  17. #17
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    Really, there's no easy solution to your alias problem. The Apple menu is created as soon as the boot drive is mounted. Your problem is that the other drives aren't yet mounted, so the sub-menus don't get identified. Your AppleScript startup file is probably the best and most elegant solution.

  18. #18
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    That's easy enough- though I didn't think of putting it in the startup folder; I have mine hanging off the menu bar within OSA Lite, a script program.

    Some other things I've noticed recently: you can boot a Quicksilver from the 9.1 system on Norton Utilities 6...
    Norton freaks when examining and trying to repair X from an installed version of itself- it comes back with all kinds of major errors and pretends to fix them. It seems to do very well on X though, when used from the booted cd....
    Multiple partitions on these IBM IDE's seem somewhat prone to problems...(just a feelin')

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