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Thread: 8100 won't power up...anymore.

  1. #41
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    Paul,

    Way to go!!! Glad that you won the auction--good price. Now you can use the old one to soup the new 8100 and have extra parts. Combine all the ram simms and you will have more memory since you have 8 slots to fillup. The new one has a nice sized hard drive which is cool.

    As for Seagate hard drives--I hate them very passionatley. I had 2 of them and they caused my 6100 to crash constantly. Then I got another Seagate and it did the same thing. I experienced not being able to boot sometimes and other times the question mark popped up or the drive always gave some error. Drove me crazy--I reinstalled software over and over until it just quit finally and I have heard other people complain about Seagate in their Macs. I promised myself that I would never buy anything other than Quantum again. Since you won the auction, contact the seller and find out what brand the 1 gig drive is. I pray it is not a Seagate. If it is, please ask them if they dont mind giving you another 1 gig, anything but the Seagate brand. Experience has taught me to stick with Quamtum.

    Cool, you have a 6100 as well. I love my little "pizza box" and recently I networked it with the 8100 and I love this setup. Oh, hail to the vintage Macs!!!

    I was also thinking if you get another hard drive for the old 8100 maybe it will be working like it should. To test this, borrow the hard drive from the 6100 and put it in the 8100 just to see how the computer behaves. If it boots and you hear the gong, then it was your Seagate hard drive all along. Bad drives cause strange behavior. If you had Norton Utilities to run on the Seagate, I'm sure it would report a lot of errors, but Disk First Aids should give some error reports as well. Then you should send your Seagate drive to the Mac graveyard for good. You could probably find another hard drive on ebay for $10-15 dollars.

    Let me know what happens if you decide to try the drive from the 6100 in the 8100. Also, keep me posted on the new 8100.

    --Angela

  2. #42
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    ok check this out....

    I ran Transoft SCSI Director on the drive. Here is what came up.

    Device Info: SCSI ID: 4, VENDOR:SEAGATE PRODUCT:ST11200N SUN 1.05 FIRMWARE 8808
    Sense Key Info: Sense Key: 04, HARDWARE ERROR
    Sense Code Info: ASC: 03, DRIVE FAULT. ASCQ: 00
    Additional Info: Info: decimal 0, hex 0x00000000. THERE IS NO ADDITIONAL INFO TO REPORT ON THIS CONDITION.

    Could someone please translate all this. I have HD Toolkit and Norton so any other ideas on what to run will be helpful. I've tried most of the mini apps.
    Thanx.



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  3. #43
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    Paul,

    Not exactly sure about what this means, other than it is reporting an error, but no specific information. Try running Norton's and see what it says. What version of Nortons do you have?

  4. #44
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    I have Norton 4.0,(which I used), 3.1 and I believe I also have 3.5 somewhere. I tried all the utilities on the drive that I have and none of them will let me reformat the drive. At this point, I don't care about losing the data that the guy loaded on there for me.

    ********
    Now the battery is not even in the computer anymore. Everytime I shut down the computer, it never powers up anymore at first try. It's not the keyboard, BTW.
    I need to physically pull the plug from the back, wait 30 seconds, plug it back in then it starts. I KEEP FORGETTING TO MENTION ALSO, after I hear the startup chime once, it happens again a couple of seconds later before starting up. Maybe that's normal?? This all must mean something. I never have any problem after the unit is on, only after I shut down and try to restart.

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  5. #45
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    Is it safe to assume that this is mot a termination or T power issue now?

    SCSI BUS 1 ===>CD-ROM (id3) ====>SEAGATE (id4) ===> MAC COMPUTER (id7)====sep T.
    SCS1 BUS 0 ===>CONNER (id0) ====>MAC COMPUTER (id7)

    I see no jumpers where the diagrams said, just empty pins on the Seagate.
    Except of course the one I installed to make the id4. Thanx.

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  6. #46
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    Paul,

    Sorry, I'm working on a Gurus PTP issue that is leaving me little time for the forums.

    "Is it safe to assume that this is mot a termination or T power issue now?
    SCSI BUS 1 ===>CD-ROM (id3) ====>SEAGATE (id4) ===> MAC COMPUTER (id7)====sep T.
    SCS1 BUS 0 ===>CONNER (id0) ====>MAC COMPUTER (id7)"

    "sep T" is a terminator? And it is physically located on the SCSI ribbon cable just after the Seagate?

    Go here http://www.seagate.com:80/support/di.../st11200n.html and scroll down the page until you see the description for J2 with its 8 sets of jumper pins. You want a horizontally placed jumper on the lower pins for 7 and 8 which the diagram calls Position A and identifies as Term. Power from SCSI Bus. Be sure you understand the picture orientation of the drive meaning right side up or upside down, rear end of drive left or rear end of drive right, so that you know how to install the jumper, if it is not already installed correctly.

    What happens now? k

  7. #47
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    <<"sep T" is a terminator? And it is physically located on the SCSI ribbon

    cable just after the Seagate?>>



    YES, and the very end of the cable.



    I'll let you know what happens when I try your suggestion, but if thers' a terminator at the end of the cable, does the drive itself still need to be terminated??



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  8. #48
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    Kaye,

    I am glad that you provided the diagram for Paul. He needs to place one jumper pin for J2 (horizontal across 7 and 8 pins) and one for J6 (vertical on 1st pin for ID 4). Paul has already put one on J6 for the ID 4, so this is done. Does he need a jumper for J5 as well? What is the purpose of the J5 connector? Does he have the option of the J6 or the J5? What is HDA?


    [This message has been edited by angela (edited 17 March 2001).]

  9. #49
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    Paul,

    I am glad to know that you used Norton's 4.0, but did you get any error messages? As for Norton's, it will not reformat the drive for you. You should you Apple Drive Setup or FWB Hard Drive Toolkit to reinitialize the drive. This will erase all that stuff that the other guy had on the drive. I would recommend Apple Drive Setup over FWB since this is a third party software and Apple OS 8.5 can't update your hard disk drivers with any software other than Apple Drive Setup. Once you open Drive Setup the Seagate should appear in the window then you can select it an initialize it. Then you pop in the OS 8.5 disk, holding down "C" to boot from the disk. Now you are ready to install the OS 8.5 on the Seagate. Just remember you need to get the jumpers placed correctly before initialzing the drive and putting a fresh copy of OS 8.5 on the Seagate.

    P.S. The Sep T on the end of the SCSI cable sounds strange, you probably need a standard SCSI ribbon cable which has no terminators on it. This odd ribbon cable could be causing some problems as well.

    [This message has been edited by angela (edited 17 March 2001).]

  10. #50
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    Hi-
    Put the jumper where you indicated. Apple drive setup will not allow me to initialize the drive. First it sayd that the drive needs a low level format. Then when I go to do it, it starts and I get an error that the drive is too large to initialize?? It's only 1G. It says I can partition it in custom setup but when I go there, the option is greyed out. ARRRGGGHHH.


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  11. #51
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    I also tried FWB HD Toolkit. The error message says 'Device encountered a hardware error'. I don't think anyone ever answered my question, correct me if I'm wrong, but could I have rendered this drive totally useless if I didn't have the SCSI cable all the way in when I first connected it?

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  12. #52
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    Paul,

    I think it would be a good idea to make sure that the SCSI cable is firmly attached to the drive, as well as the power connector to the drive. Just checking again, you do have 1 jumper pin on the J2 and done on the J6 connector? Once the SSCI ribbon is attached correctly and you have your 2 jumpers on the drive, then you can test to see if it is mounted. To do this, open up the SCSI Probe, there should be 2 columns, highlight the ID for the Seagate and in the second column, logical units, it should also be highlighted, click on the icon that has the up arrow and if mounted, it will pass this test. If the drive is not mounted, then the computer is not recognizing the drive. If the computer is not recognizing the drive, then the drive is bad or not setup correctly.

    As for Drive Setup, something is weird. Both FWB and Apple Drive Setup would not allow you to initialize the drive, but you did get an error message with FWB. When you tried to initialize the Seagate, was this your start up disk or did you boot from a system's disk i.e. OS 8.5? You cant initialize from the start up disk. The best way to initialize is to boot from OS 8.5 and then run Drive Setup. Check box boxes low level format and zero all data. Try this and see what happens this time. You are right, you don't have to partition the 1 gig.

    When you ran the Nortons 4.0, did it give error messages about the drive? What does Disk First Aid report about the drive? The drive could have some bad paths or forks, but if wiped clean, maybe it will work okay. If most of the utilities are giving errors, then maybe the drive is no good. So try Drive Setup one more time. If Drive Setup is acting weird again, then put OS 8.5 in and change the control panel for startup disk to OS 8.5 and reboot, holding down the "c" key. Then, try Drive Setup to what it says. Next, you can do a clean install on the Seagate which will give a new system folder on the drive and get rid of all the stuff on the drive.

    There is still the option of trying the drive from the 6100...unless you feel uncomfortable with this idea.

    --Angela



    [This message has been edited by angela (edited 17 March 2001).]

  13. #53
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    Okay, if your symptom is that you must unplug the wall cord from the power supply before you can start up again, you most likely have a power supply problem. That should be easy enough to check when you get the second machine. The IIci (which has a different, but functionally similar PS) has exactly the same problem on some failing power supplies. There's a capacitor that gets weak and then the PS must be unplugged for a while before the thing will turn on.

    So when you get the new machine from the Ebay seller, try swapping the PS and motherboards and I think you'll find that your problem stays with the old Power supply.

    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
    SCSI BUS 1 ===>CD-ROM (id3) ====>SEAGATE (id4) ===> MAC COMPUTER (id7)====sep T.
    SCS1 BUS 0 ===>CONNER (id0) ====>MAC COMPUTER (id7)<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    I'm not sure if your diagram means what I think it means, so I'm going to do a little exposition. To my way of diagramming, a cable with nothing on it would look like this:

    Cable: C1===C2===C3===C4===C5

    Where each C is a connector and the === is cable segments. The above would be a five connector cable.

    So when you posted your diagram, it looks to me like on SCSI 1, you have a pigtail of SCSI cable with nothing on C1, then a CDROM on C2, then a Seagate on C3, then C4 plugged into your Mac's motherboard, and C5 hanging after that with a separate terminator on it. I'm betting that's not what you have, but that's what your diagram says to me. And that would be a doomed configuration for a couple of reasons.

    Why don't you redo your SCSI cable diagram using the above standard and tell us how many connectors are on each cable. The SCSI IDs are handy to know, so listing those are good. I notice that in your diagram you listed them in numerical order. There is no need to have the IDs in numerical order. For example, this would be a valid configuration:

    SCSI 1: MAC COMPUTER (id7)===CD-ROM (id3)===C3===SEAGATE (id4) ===>sep T

    So on the cable the IDs are in order 7, 3, 4 and that's perfectly all right. SCSI ID has nothing to do with the physical ordering of the devices on the cable. The only thing you need to worry about with SCSI ID is that there are no duplicates on a given bus.

    It sounds like Angela has had some bad experiences with Seagate drives. Everyone's experiences are a little different, but I can personally attest that Seagate makes some of the best drives out there and has consistently for many years. The machine I'm sitting at now contains a RAID of four Barracudas. These drives are over 5 years old (yes, I'm out of date) and have given me trouble free service through three computers. Of course, they (my drives) are a bit slow by today's standards, because they're ancient in computer years.

    Three things that may have contributed to Angela's experiences are that Seagate has been a major manufacturer of drives for a very long time. So there are a lot of drives out there. Few people comment when things work right, but they notice when they break. If you've got a large share of the market, of course, many of the complaints about failing devices will involve your brand, because there's so many of your drives out there.

    Second, there are many sellers of drives selling ancient Seagate drives, such as the old ST32550 and ST15150 Barracudas and the boat anchor 9GB ST410800 drive. The first and last were good drives in their day (5 years ago) but they're near their end of life today. Yet there are people selling these drives to unsophisticated buyers. The ST32550 in particular puts off a lot of heat and requires some special care. My 5 year old RAID is four ST32550s but every drive has its own fan and has for the last four years. Someone trying to use one in a 6100 would probably have a very unhappy experience.

    Third, every manufacturer produces the occasional turkey. I'm not familiar with the specific model that Angela mentioned, but it may have been such a drive for Seagate.

    Anyway, the point is that Seagate does make good drives and there is no reason to avoid them as a class. A new Seagate drive will have an excellent multi-year warranty. The old ready to keel over drives will have expired or nearly expired Seagate warranties.

    It is important to be cautious when buying a new drive though, to make sure it really is a new drive. Some of those models I mentioned above are still available "new" in the sense that they have never been used, but their design and manufacturing date are years old. The Gurus has narrow Seagates that are modern drives and do not have the heat issues that older drives have (not to mention performing worlds better).


    [This message has been edited by trag (edited 17 March 2001).]

  14. #54
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    if I'm not mistaken, that's a very, very old drive (in computer years). It may be defective, or it may simply need to have its mode pages flashed back to defaults. There is a thread somewhere else here where one of the guys discovered his drive trying to use a 514k block size rather than 512k, for example.....it caused a helluva mess. He fixed it using Hard Disk Toolkit 4. The Configure application can "optimize" mode page settings.

    that may help in this case. If not, I would just open it up and turn the platters into a nice set of wind chimes for the patio.


  15. #55
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    <<I think it would be a good idea to make sure that the SCSI cable is firmly attached to the drive, as well as the power connector to the drive. Just checking again, you do have 1 jumper pin on the J2 and done on the J6 connector? Once the SSCI ribbon is attached correctly and you have your 2 jumpers on the drive, then you can test to see if it is mounted. >.>

    Angela-
    I think you misunderstood. It was only the FIRST time when I connected the drive that the cable MAY not have been pushed in all the way. Obviously I'm more careful now, and I'm physically putting it somewhere where I can reach it
    ...well at least a LITTLE better.I have the J2 term power jumper on, but I had to borrow it from the J6 ID one. Don't do this a lot, so I don't have a lot of jumper pins hanging around. I realize this makes the Seagate id0 and that's OK cause I put it on the other chain so it wouldn't conflict with the Conner.

    As far as SCSI probe and the mounting issue, as I said, it recognizes the drive is connected with the proper SCSI id and all but it doesn't mount.Won't let me, says it needs a low-level format, which it won't do.

    <<When you tried to initialize the Seagate, was this your start up disk or did you boot from a system's disk i.e. OS 8.5?>>

    No, I wish. If it doesn't mount, it can't be the startup disk.

    <<What does Disk First Aid report about the drive? The drive could have some bad paths or forks, but if wiped clean, maybe it will work okay. If most of the utilities are giving errors, then maybe the drive is no good. So try Drive Setup one more time. If Drive Setup is acting weird again, then put OS 8.5 in and change the control panel for startup disk to OS 8.5 and reboot, holding down the "c" key. Then, try Drive Setup to what it says. Next, you can do a clean install on the Seagate which will give a new system folder on the drive and get rid of all the stuff on the drive.>>

    Disk first aid only works on volumes, it won't mount and therefore there IS no volume. I can't do a clean install until I get it to mount. Thanx. I tried the 6100 drive in there and it works.



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  16. #56
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    Trag-
    Thanx. Well, I managed to mess up one of the connectors on SCSI bus 1. Came right out, so here's my config as of now.

    SCSI 1: MAC COMPUTER (id7)===CONNER (id0)====C3(well, not anymore) ===>sep T
    SCSI 0: MAC COMPUTER (id7)===C2===SEAGATE (id0)

    The Conner is working as normal, the CD-ROM is out of the picture, The Seagate has term power enabled and still won't mount or let me initialize it.

    I just need to determine if this drive is bad AND ALSO, was it bad when it shipped, or did my possible careless connection fry the drive??

    Is this even possible? Nobody really directly addressed this. Could not have plugging the SCSI cable all the way in at one end fried the drive?

    Also, I forgot to mention this- One of the pins on the end on the bottom is SLIGHTLY bent. It kind of makes a little curve (not just straight and bent cause then I could straighten it out). When I plug the SCSI cable in then take it out, the pin is in exactly the same position so I assume it's making contact or it would probably bend it worse. If you're looking at the cable/drive from the back and the red stripe is on the right, the pin is the left most one on the bottom (if that helps). Don't think it's an issue but I figured I'd mention it.

    I'll poke around with what 'Magician' said and see if I can figure anything else out. If not, I guess i have to assume the drive is screwed, but I'd really like to know if I DID IT or if the SELLER sold me a bum drive. Don't feel right going back to him telling him he sold me a bad drive if I may have indeed caused it. Thanx all.




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  17. #57
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    Paul,

    I'm sorry, didn't mean to insult you able the cable, just trying to respond about it not being connected very well to your SCSI cable. Also, I was on a mission of" try this, try that" only to see what the drive was doing with different utilities and monitor its behavior. I figured the more things that reported some error or didn't allow the drive to be initialized or mounted would prove the case that the Seagate had been thoroughly tested. I must have had a brain fart when I was asking about the startup disk since I forgot that you had the Conner to boot up as your start up disk. So I guess its safe to say that the Conner is working properly. I do understand not having extra jumpers lying around the house. I had an extra one that fell on the carpet and it took me 2 months to accidentally find it since its so small. But you were able to work around that issue which was excellent. So, now I think its general consensus that the Seagate needs to go to the Mac graveyard? I don't say this to be insulting at all. I agree with Magician if it possible to use a hard disk repair software, maybe there is a chance for the Seagate, but it is a weak maybe, it all depends if the drive will respond to the software. It hasn't been very responsive with anything else you have tried, other than being a very uncooperative drive.

    When you borrowed the drive from the 6100, did it boot up smoothly with no glitches i.e multiple chimes or delayed start up, etc.? I'm sure the other drive mounted with no problems. I forgot to ask you how your CDrom is working? Are you able to use OS and audio CDs with no problems?

    You did a great job on testing!!! You hung in there and this is what is most important...you didn't have to throw the computer out the window.

    P.S. Trag, you are right that Seagate did make some great products, but experience is a strong teacher. I probably did just luck up and get lemon drives. I had one old lemon and one purchased new and I got burned badly, the only good thing that I was able to retrieve important files before it quit for good.

  18. #58
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    Okay, in the configuration you've drawn, you need termination on the Seagate, which is different from termination power. It's good that you installed the jumper at pins 7 & 8 because that will allow termination power from the SCSI bus to the drive, which is what you want.

    From the diagram that Kaye referenced, the Seagate requires termination pack resistors to be installed to enable termination. Does the Seagate have the termination resistors in place? They'd be where the ~1" long rectangles are in the diagram that Kaye supplied the URL for. There should be three of them I believe, though the diagram seems to show six.

  19. #59
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    No termination plugs at all. Does this mean all the errors I got could simply be a result of that?

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  20. #60
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    http://www.seagate.com:80/support/di...si/hwk1gde.pdf

    Refer to the manual Pages 21 and 33 which reference the resister terminator packs. Kaye had indicated earlier that they should be installed. This could be why the drive is not responding properly. It becomes a question of where do you acquire these? Campbell Tech specializes in hard to find drives, such as your model and supports them, try giving them a call 1-800-474-8399 to locate the resister packs. They can probably tell you more about what happens when they aren't installed on the drive. I hope this helps.

    [This message has been edited by angela (edited 18 March 2001).]

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