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Thread: 8100 won't power up...anymore.

  1. #21
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    Louie, maybe you can help with jumper settings:

    New drive, Seagate ST11200N here http://www.seagate.com:80/cgi-bin/vi...i/st11200n.txt

    Boot drive, Conner CFA540S http://www.seagate.com:80/support/di...i/cfa540s.html and http://www.seagate.com:80/support/di...r/cfa540s.html

    I can explore this more thoroughly later if you are busy, I know you are. He needs to answer some questions anyway. Those two drives are a headache as you will see. k

  2. #22
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    Don't those 8100's use big black terminators?

  3. #23
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    Parisengr, when you mentioned the video card, is that a card in the PDS slot? That's the non-NuBus slot above the NuBus slots and next to the power supply. If so, do you have an HPV card or an AV card. If not, then do you have a termination card in the PDS slot?

    Assuming that the card to which you were referring is either an HPV card or the AV card, make sure that it is firmly seated. It can take a bit of force to get the thing into the slot. I bought an 8100/110 from Hawaii once (I'm in Texas) and when I got it it wouldn't power up. It turned out the HPV card had come just loose enough to cause problems, but not loose enough to be ignored. So make sure that any card in the HPV slot is properly seated.

    I'd go ahead and check the ROM and cache DIMMs as well. I don't have any experiential reason to think they would be the problem, but it can't hurt to check.

    You may wish to replace the battery on the theory that it may be moastly ded. In those cases it might be supplying enough juice to keep some data in PRAM, but not enough to maintain it properly, resulting in corrupt partial data in PRAM. The battery is about $10 at Radio Shack. Check the date code on the new one to make sure it hasn't been on the shelf a long time.

  4. #24
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    Thanx guys! Hopefully with your help I'll get to the bottom of this. I don't think I have any other utilities, but I'll look. May have an older version of Norton on a Zip Disk somewhere.

    I am running OS 8.5

    The video card is in the PDS slot and I believe it is an AV card. (S-Video in's and out's) plus it IS an 8100/80/"AV".

    I just changed the battery and I believe it to be fresh but I'll have to go to my studio and pick up my meter to test it.

    All the cards and chips seem to be seated properly. When the case is back together, the AV card is solid, but when it's apart, the other side that is NOT in the MB hangs. The little plastic thingy doesn't seem to be holding it, almost like it's too far away to grab it. Maybe that couples with the weight of the monitor plug couls be causing it, I dunno??

    I have 2 internal SCSI buses, 0 and 1. I have the Seagate 1G set to id4 and the boot drive set to id0. I don't think I can get all 3 together on 1 bus due to the cable. I've just been trying to get the Seagate working at this point.

    Do we think I fired the Seagate drive, or is there a good chance the data is still there? Thanx guys.

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  5. #25
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    I have a profound suspicion that this is a termination issue.

  6. #26
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    OK, so how do I solve it? Would a termination issue cause the drive to appear blank and in need of initialization?

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  7. #27
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    A termination issue might cause the drive to be unreadable. If the drive is unreadable, then the MacOS would assume that it needs to be initialized. So, yes a termination problem could cause the problem you are having.

    Have you solved your power problem? You probably realize this, but the power cable in the 8100 unplugs at both the power supply end and the motherboard end. make sure that the cable is securely plugged into the power supply.

    As far as termination goes, your SCSI cables inside the machine should look like this:

    case 1) MB=====D=======DT

    or

    case 2) MB=====D=======D=====T

    Where === is cable, MB is motherboard, D is any SCSI device, and T is termination.

    There may be more or fewer than two D's on the cable. The important thing is for the MB to be at one end of the cable and for the T to be at the other end of the cable. The T by itself is a separate terminator that plugs into the cable. DT indicates a device with termination enabled on the device.

    The 8100 shipped with a separate terminator that plugged into the last connector on one of the SCSI cables. So in the diagram for Case 2 one plugs that separate terminator into the last connector on the SCSI cable and puts the devices on other connectors.

    In case 1, there is no separate terminator. One makes sure that one device is at the end of the SCSI cable and enables termination on that device. According to the tech sheets that Kaye referenced below, your hard drives require the intallation of resistor packs (about 1" long with a bunch of pins coming out of them in a row) to enable termination and the removal of those resistor packs to disable termination.

    Your CDROM drive should have a jumper that enables and disable termination.

    So, without knowing exactly how many connectors you have on your SCSI cables and whehter or not you have the separate terminator that shipped with the machine, here is my recommendation. There is more than one way you could configure these drives, so other arrangements will work, but to give you specific advice, I must choose one of the choices.

    First, examine the SCSI connectors on the motherboard and on all your drives, to make sure you don't have a bent pin or two in the connector. It occurs to me that a bent pin might be causing a short in the 5V supply which might prevent the power supply from coming on.

    ===============SCSI Bus 1=================
    Put the CDROM drive on SCSI bus 1 by itself. Make sure that it is plugged into the last connector on the SCSI ribbon cable. Make sure that termination is enabled on the CDROM drive.

    **OR**

    Alternatively, if you wish to use the separate terminator with the CDROM drive, plug the separate terminator into the last connector on the SCSI cable for Bus 1. Put the CDROM drive on the (or any) connector between the Motherboard and the terminator. Make sure that termination and termination power are disabled on the CDROM drive.

    =================SCSI Bus 0=====================
    Put the two hard drives on SCSI bus 0. It doesn't matter which drive goes where as long as one is at the physical end of the SCSI cable. Install (or leave in place) the termination resistor packs on the drive which is at the end of the cable. Remove the termination resistor packs from the drive which is in the middle of the cable.

    ===OR====
    Alternatively, if you wish to use the separate SCSI terminator, then plug the SCSI terminator into the last connector on the SCSI cable. Remove the termination resistor packs from both hard drives and plug each into a middle (between MB and terminator) connector on the cable. This option requires that your cable have four connectors (two for drives, 1 for MB, 1 for Term).

    =========for both SCSI bus 0 options========
    Check the jumper settings on both drives and make sure that Termination Power is disabled. Termination Power is different (though related to) termination. Except in rare instances, you always want Termination Power disabled. The motherboard takes care of supplying it.

    Hopefully that will settle any termination issues. If any of that is unclear to you feel free to ask for elaboration.

  8. #28
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    Once again but slightly modified, I need diagrams of how you have your SCSI chains:

    Tell me what the physical chains look like. For instance:
    mobo int SCSI connector--->Conner--->CD drive
    mobo ext SCSI connector--->Seagate

    What do they look like? I can't troubleshoot termination without this info. Whoops, I see t has laid it out for you. k

    [This message has been edited by kaye (edited 14 March 2001).]

  9. #29
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    Hi,

    I hear your frustration and it sounds like you have a serious problem and it could be the combination of several things:

    1. bad video card and hard drive
    2. bad romm simm or the machine does not like some ram simms
    3. hard drive needs to be reinitialized with drive set up and reformatted with OS 8.5 (perhaps there is no system folder on the drive)
    4. drives are terminated properly or the last device on the chain is not terminated
    5. your SCSI cables may need to be changed
    6. could have a bad CDrom
    7. pins could be defective on your drives or connectors
    8. defective power supply
    9. motherboard is dying or needs to be replaced

    It disturbs me that you don't hear the familiar "gong" when you power up and that there is no video at all. The 8100 is very finicky when it comes to ram. It is common for the L2 cache to die in these machines without you knowing it. It is a good thing that you replaced the battery for starters. Before you deal with issue of terminating the drives on the chain, you need to deal with trying to boot up with the bare minimum attached to the computer. I would suggest that you disconnect all drives attached to the 8100 with the exception of the CDrom. The gurus are right that you check to see if its terminated properly. After you changed the battery, did you reset the pram, by holding down the option +apple key +P+R? Well, after you disconnect everything but the CDrom drive, try to boot from the OS 8.5 by holding down the "C" key. If you still can't boot or the screen is black, then you probably have a motherboard issue. Check the ram and the romm simms to make sure they are in working order and that they are not defective. The next thing is to add one hard drive and test it with with a SCSI Probe, such as Adaptec http://www.adaptec.com/worldwide/sup...+for+Macintosh which is a drive utility. It will indicate if the drive is mounted. In addition, you can also use the Apple Drive Setup to see if the drive appears in the window. If not, the system is not reading the drive or there is a problem with the drive. Shut the computer down and reboot, if there is a question mark or still a blank screen without the "gong" then there is a strong possibility that you need to replace the motherboard. I give you this advice because I experienced the same symptoms you have described. I ended up replacing the motherboard, CDrom and the power supply. Best wishes with your troubleshooting.

  10. #30
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    Thanx all. I'm still having all problems and am ready to throw the computer out the window!!

    The chains look like this. SCSI chain 0 MB====>CD-ROM

    SCSI chain 1 MB===>CONNER===>SEAGATE===>separate T

    ...although I've tried other combinations, that is the easiest to do with the way the cables are situated.

    Not exactly sure what you mean by termination power? On the seagate there are 2 rows of 8 tiny pins on the bottom PCB (about an inch long). There is nothing on them?? Also, not sure about the Conner or the CD-ROM as far as termination and term power. I assume the CD-ROM is properly terminated because it always has been. And I assume the Conner is alright because of the separate T on the chain.

    Angela-
    As far as you replacing the motherboard, the PS and the Cd-ROM, wouldn't it just be easier to just buy a new computer?? Also, I checked the drives with SCSI probe and it says something about a bad map on the seagate. That's what made me think it was messed up and needed to be initialized. However, it was supposedly fine with an active sys folder on it when I got it so it makes me wonder. I tried using soft raid on it but it wouldn't even let me initialize it. I later was told that that won't work with NuBus macs.

    I'm going to play with it a little more and see if I can figure out what's causing it to not always power up. I'm at my wits end however. Thanx all.
    Any other suggestions?

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  11. #31
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    Don't throw out the computer!!! I totally understand your frustration. I had my computer down for a couple of months trying to figure out what was wrong. I replaced the motherboard, CDrom and power supply for a reasonable amount because I bought off the auctions. You probably wont have to replace anything as long as the motherboard is working okay. It could be that you just have a bad power supply, but you obviously were able to power up in order to use the SCSI probe. Its just a bad sign when you dont hear the "gong." Glad to hear that yuo were able to use the SCSI probe and since you got an error message with one of your drives. You probably should try to save anything important stored on the drive and reformat if using the current drive setup off the Apple site. The drive that you purchased off ebay probably had been formatted, but it might not be compatible with your system. So its just a good idea to reformat it with the OS 8.5.

    As far as the termination of the drive, there should be some terminator pins (small black pins that go are placed on the 2 rows of pins) on the drive. If there are no pins on there, then the drive is not terminated. You would have to contact Conner and Seagate tech support to get information about how many pins each drive needs and where to place the pins. You might be able to go to the website http://www.seagate.com/support/disc/...model_st3.html and look up the model and check out the pin configuration. Conner drive information can be found at http://www.campbelltechnical.com/conner.htm You can also call them and they can tell you how to place your pins if the diagrams are too confusing. Both drives need pins so that the computer can read where the drive is in the SCSI chain.

    When you removed the hard drives and tried powering up with just the CDrom and the OS 8.5 only, what happened? Did you hear the gong? Did you boot and get video with any problems? Did you check the CDrom SCSI ID which should be 3? If so, then your problems can be narrowed to the hard drives only. If its the hard drives, you have to deal with setting the pins correctly and right now there are no pins which is not good. What are the model numbers of the Conner and the Seagate? Maybe I can help you with configuring. I will also need to know where you would like which SCSI IDs you want to assign to each drive. When you used the SCSI probe, what were the IDs for both drives?

    I was looking at how you have your drives set up and it was not clear which bus you are using. What type of SCSI ribbon are you using? You should have a 4 device ribbon cable that attaches from to the bottom connector (Bus 0) on the motherboard. The system will run flawlessly if you get the HDs and the CDrom all on the same BUS 0. I would avoid the top SCSI connector (Bus 1) if at all possible since this should be reserved for external drives.

    Just hang in there!!! The gurus are right about your termination issues. I think you should be close to figuring out the culprit of your problems. I hope this helps...

    --Angela

  12. #32
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    Angela, neither of those very old drives have Termination Enable pins. They both have resistor packs for termination. The ST11200N has three separately installed resistor packs by the rear of the drive according to this http://www.seagate.com:80/cgi-bin/vi...i/st11200n.txt just above where it says +Terminating Resistors+. Going to this page http://www.seagate.com:80/support/di.../st11200n.html it calls them I/O Terminators and shows the packs on the logic board of the drive near the rear. The Conner http://www.seagate.com:80/support/di...r/cfa540s.html calls the two resistor packs SCSI Terminators and the little description underneath is missing one word. It should say Remove in all but the "LAST" drive in the chain.

    p, if you followed the above, you are going to need to look at those HDs. You have indicated thus (and for the moment, to keep it simple, forget termination power):

    The chains look like this.
    SCSI chain 0 MB====>CD-ROM
    SCSI chain 1 MB===>CONNER===>SEAGATE===>separate T

    OK, for now leave the CD-ROM where it is. It worked on this bus by itself OK before, right?

    On chain 1, check that the resistor packs on the Conner are removed. If not, remove them but carefully diagram and mark which way, which hard drive, and which position those packs go, for the future if you ever want to use them again. Tell us whether they were there and that you removed them.

    The Seagate, if the termination resistor packs are there, leave them there, and remove the "separate T" if by that you mean a terminator. Then remove the 50-pin connector from the Seagate and install the last 50-pin connector on the cable (from which you removed the "separate T"). The Seagate termination is better than that old terminator on the end of the cable.

    If the Seagate termination resistor packs are missing, then leave the "separate T" installed.

    Now, where are we? k

  13. #33
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    Kaye,

    Well, since I had no info on the models I was unaware that the drives are truly vintage, but that doesn't matter as much as are they damaged or are in need of reformatting. I agree that the issue of terminatination can be put aside for now. Push come to shove, they can be replaced. One of the drives has generated an error message.

    The issue is finding out if the system will boot without problems. According to the way the computer is set up, the CDrom is on the top connector. The drives should be disconnected from the motherboard to see how the CDrom works by itself in booting as I mentioned earlier. If the system boots with OS 8.5, although I would recommend OS 8.1 for testing purposes, then this is a good sign that the computer is functioning. Hear the gong, video on the monitor and the OS shows on the desktop. This should be a smooth operation.

    What are you thoughts?

  14. #34
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    Angela,

    I dunno. I'm thinking he is overwhelmed with info and is not sure what to do, plus frustration is setting in. I'm having the same thing with a PTP I'm setting up. The difference is I can make progress because I have my hot little hands on it, whereas we are trying to talk him thru the problems. Sometimes that just does not work, even with the synergy of several helping out. k

  15. #35
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    Hey guys-
    I really do appreciate all the help. This is a very cool board. Problem is, there are 2 totally separarte issues here, and it's frustrating when you're trying to solve a termination problem, and the darn thing just keeps deciding not to power up. I've removed the battery and put the case back together and haven't had any problems in 2 days. Of course, I haven't been in there poking around, putting drives in, removing the power cable to do so, and putting it back in, and such. Wish I knew for sure if it was the video card, PS, or MB, then I could replace one of them. Don't really want to replace all of them because I still feel I could probably find another machine on ebay for a fraction of the cost or replacing all 3 parts.
    As far as the termination issue, it all pretty much makes sense and I intend to try the suggestions over the weekend when I have more time. I'll post and let y'all know how I made out. Thanx again. -Paul

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  16. #36
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    Kaye,

    I agree with the fact that all this information is overwhelming. It would be so nice if he had a Mac buddy to come and troubleshoot with him and of course bring some old spare parts. He is right about 2 issues pinpointing the power up problem and then there is the cost of replacement parts. He did the right thing by taking the battery out. I had consulted with a email friend who knows the 8100 like the back of his hand and he helped me along with the gurus when my 8100 wouldn't do anything. My friend agreed that the problem was the battery.

    I would recommend waiting to buy any parts since there isn't enough information to know which parts are faulty. I think he should read this related post http://www.macgurus.com/ubb/Forum8/HTML/000176.html , especially the comment made by trag. He talks about the power on issue.

  17. #37
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    Hi Angela-
    I did read that post, and although very informative, it didn't help my situation. I still haven't determined if it's the power supply or not, as it is an intermittent problem. I actually have some basic knowledge in electronics and computers (well, Mac only really) but this one is eluding me.

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  18. #38
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    Paul,

    I am glad to know that you are still hanging in there. Sorry that all this info is overwhelming to you and believe me it was for me as well a couple of months ago. This was my post http://www.macgurus.com/ubb/Forum3/HTML/000221.html Let me share my story wth you. Around Thanksgiving I bought my 8100 for $30 at a Mac garage sale and I was so happy. It worked nicely for a couple of weeks then I noticed that I couldn't power up, didn't hear the gong and I got the question mark on the screen. I was devastated, but it got worse, then I heard the car crash noise. I was about to cry. I spent the next 2 months troubleshooting. The guy that had sold me the computer was a PC person and was horrible when I attempted to reach him. He sold me a lemon. I ended up replacing the power supply when it fried my CDrom drive. The cable that was in there was too short to fill-up all the bays with drives, so I had to change it to a 4 device ribbon. Then I noticed that my ram was not reading properly, about 40 mb was lost out there somewhere. So I opened up the case and tested each ram simm to make sure I didn't have some bad ones. I was given a gift of 128 mb of ram, but theey were EDO simms, so I thought I couldn't use them since everytime I put them in there, the computer either crashed or froze. I knew that they were compatible, but something was wrong. I doublechecked the CDrom termination and my little hard drive. My hard drive is an old 160 mb drive, but I managed to squeeze OS 9 on it. THe next thing I noticed that my CDrom would not allow to reformat the hard drive nor add items. This was so weird. Then I stripped everything down to retest and I still was having problems booting of the OS 9 disk from the CDrom, so I took my board out and was starring at it and decided to change the L2 cache. I was able to boot and the missing 40 mb ram was now reading. But I noticed if I left the computer on for about 6-8 hours, it would freeze. I knew that I had done extensive testing to make sure each device was properly terminated and each device had a different ID using the SCSI Probe. I made sure the cables were tight and everything was hooked up where it was supposed to go and I still was getting unpredictable booting issues. This is when I knew somewhere on the motherboard was a signal problem--it was the culprit. I got another board and I have never had anymore problems with booting or error messages. I purchased a slot loading CDrom to replace the 12x CDrom and added an internal zip drive and life has never been better, although this was optional. Bare minimal I spent $40 dollars to replace the board and I had another power supply at home. Since my drive is so small I use an external drive or network with my 6100. My old board seemed to be working okay after I took it out, but it was really dying. One day I was testing out some sold simms so I could label them and I lost power and video. So, I made the right decision in getting a new board. But I am happy now and glad that I didn't throw the computer out the window. So I say all of this so that you know that I truly understand how you feel right now. But I know that you will resolve your problems too.

    P.S. Keep me posted on your progress. Best Wishes.

    --Angela

  19. #39
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    WOW!!! I actually recently picked up a 6100 myself, because the CD-ROM in the 8100's tray was sticking. The whole computer was $30 so I figured, why not? This was right after the problems, but I know it's not the CD-ROM because when I took it out of the circuit it did the same thing. The problem started happening after I put the Seagate drive in there. I'm just not sure if I had the SCSI cable all the way in, and this may have messed up the directory on the drive, but that doesn't seem likely that it made the computer weird, but who knows? I'm going to look on ebay because if I can find another 8100 for like $30 - $50 it will be worth it and easier to troubleshoot since I have 2 machines. Whattya think? -Paul

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  20. #40
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    Well.....I don't how good a deal this was, but it should helpmy troubleshooting issues. Whattya think?
    http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI...tem=1221747154



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    Total Traxx Rec. Studios
    2458 Boston Post Rd
    Guilford, CT 06437

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