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Thread: Moderator needs BIG help- PLEASE!!!!

  1. #1
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    Some of you may have noticed that I'm not around much (or any) these days. I'll discuss that some other time; right now, I need anyone and everyone's help who can give it, for what's at stake is the chance of one of my Macs going completely to waste.

    The patient in question is a NASA-surplus Quadra 950 that I bought over a year ago. I've been tinkering with it for awhile now (some of you may remember a strange power supply replacement project), but I've gotten everything in it working just great... everything except the ability to access TCP/IP.

    The intended purpose of this machine is to serve as a gateway/router for my home network- a couple of other Macs and my wife's PeeCee. I've intended for a long time to use the cheaper 68K version of IPNetRouter to do this. Before I can begin configuring IPNetRouter, though, the Quadra has to have the ability to see out to the Internet via our Road Runner cable modem.

    My other two Macs and the PeeCee are fine- they can see out on the internet directly themselves through the dumb hub we have connected to the cable modem. Of course, we're paying for the extra IP addresses, which I'm sick of. But the Quadra's nonTCP-ability has proven to be an absolute brick wall, and I've tried just about EVERYTHING.

    The current condition is that it is running OS 7.5.5 with Open Transport 1.1.2. Both are supposed to be fine with IPNetRouter 68K. It has a single Apple Ethernet NB Twisted Pair card, in addition to its built-in Ethernet. I am able to run AppleTalk with one of my other Macs (via a crossover cable) just fine. However, when I start up my browser, Netscape 3.04, the error message comes back that a connection could not be made.

    This has been the case no matter what I have tried. I tried OS 8.0 and that didn't do it. I tried Systems 7.5.3 and 7.6.1- no dice. In fact, all three of those operating systems had more trouble than 7.5.5 did- whenever they tried to start up TCP/IP, the system would hang. I would have to force quit, and then either go back and turn TCP/IP off, switch it to a different Ethernet port, or simply unplug the Ethernet cable altogether in order to get control of the system back.

    I found a diskette in the box for the Ethernet NuBus card, Network Software Installer 1.4.1. I thought "now we're getting somewhere". The documentation mentioned installing Ethernet driver 1.0.7, and differentiated between the driver for built-in Ethernet on the Quadra 950 and others, and also differentiated between the driver for the Apple Ethernet NuBus card and the Apple Ethernet NuBus Twisted Pair card (which is what I have). So I ran the installer. It didn't install anything. All I got was the EtherTalk Phase 2 extension. Nothing else! What the hell! I got a fresh zip disk out and created a dummy system with nothing but the System and Finder files for 7.5.5. Ran the installer again- all I got was EtherTalk Phase 2 and, this time, the Network control panel. This happened whether I ran the easy installation or the custom installation, choosing exactly what I wanted.

    Thinking maybe something was wrong with this disk, I went to the Apple download site to look for a more recent Network Software Installer. I found version 1.4.5, which installed Ethernet drivers 1.1.1 for exactly what I want (Quadra 950 built-in and Ethernet NB Twisted Pair card). Ran the installer- same thing happened, I got no files other than EtherTalk.

    I spent even more hours scouring Apple's website for more downloads that might work for me. I'm pretty well versed now in what Apple has available for download and what they don't (example- no version of Open Transport between 1.1.2 and 2.6). I'll keep it short and just tell you I couldn't find anything.

    I finally dug up an OS 8.1 install CD that I was able to get the 68K versions of Open Transport 1.3 off of. I installed that into my System 7.5.5 folder and restarted. No change- I can still run AppleTalk, but no TCP/IP.

    I am at my wit's end people. I need help BIG TIME. Anyone who has ANY ideas or clues, please post a reply or email me at my macgurus address. I can't tell you how frustrated I am at all this, although I bet a number of you had other experiences involving Macs and brick walls that were equally exasperating. I dont' know what I'm going to do if I can't get this to work and I'm forced to buy a stupid hardware router and chuck this Quadra. I would keep it if I had any other use for it, but being a gateway/router is the ONLY thing I wanted it for in the first place. Please, please, please help.

  2. #2
    Join Date
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    miami, fl, usa
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    You said this was NASA surplus, obviously used but, was it ever known to be able to access the internet over TCP/IP? Could it be that even though the Appletalk works through ethernet, TCP/IP does not? Did you try both ethernet connections, built-in and the NUBUS card? Does ROAD Runner require you to give them the machine ID for the Computer that is accessing through the cable modem? Whenever I switched computers with my Cable internet provider, used to be mediaone Road Runner, they wanted the machine ID for the Mac so they could allow it to access their server, I guess. That is all my brainstorming can come up with for now. Good luck.

  3. #3
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    Exactly, what do you get in the TCP/IP control panel? Is it setup with a router? Do you have it set for Static or Dynamic addressing?

    As far as I know, Apple put all of their card drivers into the Ethertalk Phase 2 extension.

    Also, your Ethernet control panel... Are you sure that it is set to use the port you're using?

    lv

  4. #4
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    Can you verify that the port is working (i.e. chooser sees other apple talk machines)?

    It it isn't working for anythin then i would suspect bigger problems than just drivers.

    If you want to try to see what else is on that netowork install disk, try tome viewer.

    ~~~Eric~~~

  5. #5
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    FIRST and foremost, thank you thank you thank you for you guys having responded so quickly. It means a hell of a lot to have this kind of support.
    • You said this was NASA surplus, obviously used but, was it ever known to be able to access the internet over TCP/IP?[/list]

      No, that would probably make me feel a little better if I knew the machine had worked with TCP/IP before. But this is the first time I've ever tried to get it to access the internet.
      • Could it be that even though the Appletalk works through ethernet, TCP/IP does not?[/list]

        Well, I'm assuming that you're referring to the possiblity of a hardware problem that would prevent TCP/IP from working but not AppleTalk. I sure as hell hope that isn't possible.
        • Did you try both ethernet connections, built-in and the NUBUS card?[/list]

          Yes, that was what led me to believe that this was not a hardware issue. Neither interface was able to establish TCP/IP. Also the reason I believe it's driver- or software-related is because AppleTalk does work through both ports.
          • Does ROAD Runner require you to give them the machine ID for the Computer that is accessing through the cable modem?[/list]

            No, Road Runner has never asked me for machine IDs.
            • Exactly, what do you get in the TCP/IP control panel?[/list]

              The TCP/IP control panel on ALL my Macs is set for DHCP (dynamic addressing), with the option for "Load TCP/IP only when needed" turned off. I've never even needed to enter an IP address in the "DHCP client ID" field. This works on my PowerTower Pro and 6100, but not on the Quadra 950. It appears that the TCP/IP control panel is never able to acquire an IP address- that field is never filled in at any point while the Quadra 950 is connected to Road Runner. On my other Macs, I can find out what the IP address is just by opening the control panel after I've booted up.

              Just to establish that the problem was not with Road Runner itself, I hauled the Quadra 950 down to my office, where we use the same DHCP networking to dynamically assign IPs. Same situation- Quadra could establish AppleTalk connections to all the machines here in the office, but could not see out onto the internet while the other Macs could.
              • As far as I know, Apple put all of their card drivers into the Ethertalk Phase 2 extension.[/list]

                That is news to me. I suppose I should try simply placing that one EtherTalk extension in my system folder without any of the plain Ethernet drivers, and see if that makes a difference. I wonder why new OS installers (up through OS9) continued to install the regular Ethernet drivers (built-in, NB, CS, CS II), and the same old version 1.0.3 ones at that, if EtherTalk Phase 2 covered all of them (and was more up-to-date too)?
                • Also, your Ethernet control panel... Are you sure that it is set to use the port you're using?[/list]

                  Um, I was not aware that there even was an Ethernet control panel- All I've ever seen was AppleTalk and TCP/IP. Was the Ethernet control panel part of the old MacTCP Classic networking? I need to use Open Transport in order to use IPNetRouter. But I have made sure that the AppleTalk control panel was set to the NuBus card port and the TCP/IP control panel was set for the built-in port- that combination is absolutely necessary in 68K machines, according to the IPNetRouter documentation.
                  • Can you verify that the port is working (i.e. chooser sees other apple talk machines)?[/list]

                    Yes, I've been able to network the 6100 and Quadra 950 to my heart's content using a crossover cable connected to the NuBus card port. The cable (not crossover) going to my Road Runner cable modem actually is connected to a dumb hub, which is connected through its uplink port to the cable modem. I use that exact same cable to plug into the 6100 when I connect it to the internet, and the same with the PowerTower Pro. I can practically hot-plug the ethernet cable between those two machines and keep them on the net, but I can never get the Quadra 950 to square one- even when all the other machines in the house are powered off.
                    • If you want to try to see what else is on that netowork install disk, try tome viewer.[/list]

                      Actually I did try that- unfortunately, the files in the Network Software Installer are not tomes that TomeViewer can read.

                      Thanks everyone for your responses. Tonigh I'm going to try using just that EtherTalk Phase 2 extension that LV mentioned. In the meantime, please keep thinking about this and posting any new suggestions or questions or anything you can think of at all!!!

                      [This message has been edited by the_anarch (edited 10 June 2002).]

  6. #6
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    If Appletalk is working, then you have the correct Ethernet drivers in there. Time to look at OpenTransport and TCP/IP...

    This part jogged some little cog in my memory:

    quote:
    The TCP/IP control panel on ALL my Macs is set for DHCP (dynamic addressing), with the option for "Load TCP/IP only when needed" turned off. I've never even needed to enter an IP address in the "DHCP client ID" field. This works on my PowerTower Pro and 6100, but not on the Quadra 950. It appears that the TCP/IP control panel is never able to acquire an IP address- that field is never filled in at any point while the Quadra 950 is connected to Road Runner. On my other Macs, I can find out what the IP address is just by opening the control panel after I've booted up.


    Try this:

    -Open the TCP/IP CP on a working machine
    -Write down the info (IP Address, Subnet, Router, DNS)
    -Take that computer off the network
    -On the Quadra open the TCP/IP CP
    -Switch to Manual from DHCP and enter the info.
    -Reboot then ensure that the TCP/IP settings held
    -Try to access the internet

    If that works, turn on the other machine again and DHCP will give it a new IP.

    When I was at school, until I hit system 9.0 I could NEVER get DCHP to work. I would always have to enter my setting manually. However, I would always have info shown in the TCP/IP panel, but ONLY after trying to access the internet. If I booted up and opened TCP/IP it would show nothing.

    Good luck

    ~~~Eric~~~


    Edit:

    quote:

    * Could it be that even though the Appletalk works through ethernet, TCP/IP does not?

    Well, I'm assuming that you're referring to the possiblity of a hardware problem that would prevent TCP/IP from working but not AppleTalk. I sure as hell hope that isn't possible.


    I may be wrong, but I don't think that's possible.

    [This message has been edited by EGPoulin (edited 10 June 2002).]

  7. #7
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    Well, go figure, I'm posting this message using Explorer 3 on the Quadra 950. Boy is my skin beet red now.



    First I tried the Network Software Installer one more time, just to see if there was something magic about the EtherTalk Phase 2 extension it created, and as I suspected, nothing changed. Then I tried Eric's suggestion of copying the numbers from one machine and using them to manually connect the Quadra. That didn't work, although it did work when I tried using the same numbers to manually connect the 6100 to the network.



    I was about to give up for the night (the 'Canes/Wings game was on, after all), but something made me think about looking for more stuff in installation tomes using TomeViewer. Lo and behold I dug up a CD-R of the OS 8.1 Install disk- not OS 8.0, although this was basically the OS 8.0 install with the 8.1 upgrade tacked on. I figured what the hell, I'll give this a shot. So I got out another blank hard drive and did a clean basic install on it, no customization. About 90 minutes later (with only a few minutes left in the game), it finished, I rebooted, and when I fired up Explorer, Apple's beautiful homepage at Netscape rose like the sun in my browser window. OK that's over-glamorizing it, but still I was mucho relieved.



    Then I thought about all the hullaballoo I've caused here the last couple of days. I suppose I'm not out of the woods yet- I still have to get IPNetRouter running, after all- but I feel a whole hell of a lot better.



    Thank you Eric, bif, LV, and Kaye (via email) for all your help. I'll post back here when I have the whole thing up and running. And again, I apologize for having called out the big guns when such a simple solution was right under my nose (actually, under a stack of boxes up on a shelf).



    Fletch

  8. #8
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    Well, here's an update. The morning after I got the Quadra online, we experienced a disruption in Road Runner's email server connection. I took the opportunity to disconnect the cable modem and network hub and move them from our bedroom to the computer room. When I got it all hooked back up again (though with my wife's PeeCee still going directly to the cable modem through the hub), everything was working.

    When we returned home that night, her computer was unable to access the net. Then my 6100 failed to establish a TCP/IP connection. Finally, the Quadra also lost its connection upon a restart. I came to the conclusion that the problem all along had been due to how Road Runner doles out the IP addresses dynamically, and how those addresses get surrendered and reassigned. I disconnected everything from the hub except the Quadra, restarted, and that got it back on the web.

    At that point I decided to strike while the iron was hot, and get IPNetRouter running so I could serve everyone on the home network for real. After a couple of hiccups involving the forwarding of the DNS through IPNetRouter, I had everything connected and happy. There might be a lingering issue involving SMTP authentication when we send email, but I think it's all going to be OK and I can finally stop paying TimeWarner $10 a month for the extra IP address.

    If there is anyone reading this who have broadband at home with more than one computer (Mac or otherwise), and you're considering a routing solution to manage your network and provide security, I would wholeheartedly recomment IPNetRouter, if you have a machine that you can dedicate to the purpose. Or even if you just want to learn a little about networking, which is always valuable. You don't need a monitor and keyboard to stay with that machine after you've got IPNetRouter up and running, because you can always manage it remotely via VNC, Dave or Timbuktu or something. IPNetRouter itself is a breeze to setup and maintain.

    Given that you can buy a hardware router these days for just $50 and it'll do everything for you without fuss or muss, I wouldn't recommend doing what I did and buying a machine off eBay just to do this, but despite the frustration I'm glad I went through it.

  9. #9
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    It's amazing what a guy can learn doing it the hard way, eh?

    Jazzbo

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