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Thread: os x and atto pro tools ?

  1. #1
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    do they mix?


    stan

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    Hi ya Stan,

    Guess you're not into wordiness tonight.

    ExpressProTools is strictly a OS9 application. The only app that ATTO has for OSX is Express Stripe. This a a utility for RAID0 on OSX drives, they also have a add-on that allows stripe arrays built in OSX with Express Stripe to be mounted in OS9. YOu will not be able to boot off the array but it does work.

    I have yet to hear anyone who's very enthusiastic about how well Express Stripe works. I haven't found it very stable nor very fast. You might find it differently. It costs I think $29 from ATTO.

    If you are looking for a benchtesting utility Apple made up one that seems to work, only problem so far that I have with it is it has TOO many settings. Leaves mer trying things out for an hour trying to prove what I think should be the results, and I have been able to get about anything I want if I keep at the configuration long enough. I think we'll all have to agree on a standard set of settings if we want to compare results.

    You can find the Apple program for OSX at the macgurus ftp site under Benchtesting Utilities. It's called BashPak.

    Rick

  3. #3
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    well i have the latest intech speed tools, it says that its os x compatible, but it doesnt mention scsi. should i go speedtools or atto expresss tools to mount my scsi drive to run os 9.2 and os x?

    stan

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    ExpressStripe can create standard volumes, but why anyonoe would want to is beyond me. And seeing how OS X Disk Utility will partition and format IDE, FireWire and SCSI, why use 3rd party tools, even HDST 3.5? Even Drive Setup 2.07 that comes with 9.1 and above is useful.

    Someone mentioned that the only use for Pro Tools (ExpressPro-Tools) is to format a drive that won't otherwise, to remove SoftRAID so you can use Drive Setup, but not for general use. With which I concur.

    There is still, to me, on my Beige and B&W, things about SCSI support with OS X that leaves something to be desired.

    Can't move drives between the two systems easily.
    When I format drives with Disk Utility I have trouble in OS 9 even using and mounting SoftRAID'ed drives, it 'acts' like a SCSI ID problem or something.

    When SoftRAID for X ships (summer? MWNY? Sept?) then I'll know and feel more confident all around.

    OS X is different. It can move or modify partition tables. It stores information on the drive (boot blocks?) and Apple's way of sharing information with InTech and other companies (Adaptec, ATTO, SoftRAID) so that they can have a solid product seems less than ideal. Serious. None of the "come down to Cupertino" or sending Apple engineers on site for help, something that they have and did do for the Microsoft BU I hear.

    Reading the Darwin developer list I get the feeling that information, documentation, "headers" and the application programming interface, are sort of document afterwards, ship and then when something breaks pick up the pieces, which creates crisis management.

    First it was going to be 10.1 so that some projects and drivers could move forward. Then it was the December Developer Tools. Now we have the April set of tools and more to come at WWDC. To me, the cart (Mac OS X) is leading the horse (code and development tools, what were they going to do, use NeXT based tools?) and so there is the learning curve by trial and error, having to learn what OS X expects, and it is 10x harder than the marketing would leave you to believe, though some stuff does seem easier, the lower level isn't. And you never know for sure if it is fully documented.

    You'd think Apple didn't want FWB HDT to work they way things are. Or why it took so long for InTech and Apple to straigten things out. strained relationships?

    I prefer to have OS X on one box, OS 9 on another, and to backup a lot. Too many days of clean installs, not knowing if 10.1.x will break something, it never does on a clean install but... that's now a full 100MB of "updates" from 10.1.

    If it were a "walk in the woods" I think some people got lost in the fog, Norton rushed out, Alsoft is taking their time knowing user trust once won has to be kept, and SoftRAID will do it right. SoftRAID has been the best driver even for plain hfs+ not even raid, with my drives. But OS X clobbers the SoftRAID driver if you install OS X.

    bottom line, anything is a 'maybe' and nothing is certain. Too many if's.

    Gregory

  5. #5
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    Yes, I wonder how that softRAID driver is doing on my scsi boot volume...I don't know if this is related but I have had 2 freeze-the-mouse kernal panics while not doing much on an otherwise DW & Norton 7 'certified' directory- required a push-the-button restart. Not planning to keep the startup there, mind you, but all the same its unsettling.

    Glad Alsoft is taking the time. You know it'll be good once we get past 10.2. Right now, the little routine of boot from the Diskwarrior cd, then run Norton 7 from X (since I haven't made myself a cd yet), then maybe Speed Disk from the Norton 6 cd- works pretty well. But they kinda jipped us with no Speed Disk direct from X...

    This is a massive undertaking for all and the more I learn, I'm just in awe of those that can write this stuff, make it work, and keep it all coordinated with Apple's direction. And hat's off to Apple for having the ball's to push the envelope. I can work with a certain amount of uncertainty about what works now but might break later. But boy, I've never done such meticulous backing up!

    George

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    OS X can work without OS 9 drivers. I'd like to try that scenario once - just to see. Offhand, the best way to describe what OS X and SofRAID 2.22. "do" is that OS X "clobbers" SoftRAID and inserts its own driver(s) or whatever to call them. I haven't looked lately to see what invisible partitions are out there, but I would not be using SoftRAID if your disk drive is partitioned. Even with only one large volume for the drive, using SoftRAID for your OS X system might be taking too many chances.

    I too hope that the SoftRAID -Alsoft crowd come away from WWDC with what is suppose to be a very technical, open access to Apple engineers, and all the help they require to make Jaguar like up to its name, and hype.

    Maybe iPhoto and iTunes sell Macs, but to me, that was wasted effort better spent on first getting to 10.2. Get the RAID working, then FCP and the heavy applications that both need and can exploit the power.

    How about OS X without OS 9 drivers? What's the advantage in that?
    ExpressStripe ($99) !! and still "1.0" for scratch raid or backup.

    Some people say that they see Norton report "bad blocks' and ignore it. I've seen DW report and fix it AND had Norton sometimes yes, sometimes no, but if DW did its think, its been safe to let Norton (6.03) fix even Major errors.

    I don't use SpeedDisk, I just clone to another volume and that is probably faster, safer, and better, plus it means I have my old copy now for backup purposes. Which is why I keep my user data on another drive, backed up to external RAID, and my two copies of OS X. Seems like a waste of a Cheetah to just have 4GB used out of 18GB for just the system.

  7. #7
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    What I'm finding is after any cloning of the system from one drive to another, DW invariably finds "the boot blocks are damaged and will be fixed after replacing the directory" and "one file had an incorrect (I can't remember what it said) and was fixed". Then when I run Norton, it usually finds and fixes a bunch of minor errors; bundle bits off when they should be on, files whose creation dates fall outside of the expected..etc.

    After my experience when Disk Doctor tried to fix a bunch of major errors on a 9 system- I hadn't run DW first- and then it completely florfed the directory, from which I barely recovered my data, but left a bunch of damaged and unusable files.. well now its always DW first, - actually fsck -y first on every reboot for good measure.

    All along since 10.1.1, I've had some funny minor corruption here and there: text files saved in TextEdit that come up as being created by Apple System Profiler or some other non-text system application.

    The Cheetah boot is just temporary- I'm installing a third IDE this week for boot purposes. Then the Cheetahs are free for a stripe and the hardware raid's for scratch..

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    I asked the author of CCC about finding bad boot blocks and he a) was sure it was not an issue and to ignore, b) they don't occur when I do an erase on the volume first and then clone - and I stopped finding errors. Often, I run DW first, before laying down any files to let it fix the root creation date.

    Gregory

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    That's good to know- that they are not really screwed up, but just the same having DW clean it up prior sounds like good medicine. Thanks for the tip, I'll try that protocol on the next formatting session this week.

    George

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    is there a driver that will allow osx to read my scsi drive(atto and cheetah) ?


    stan

  11. #11
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    Stan, it sounds like the only choice at present for a striped array, is to format using Express Stripe from ATTO if you want to be able to see your scsi drives in 9 and X but which are not bootable in either system. For single scsi drives, Disk Utility works, SoftRAID works (but probably isn't a good choice); Express Pro-Tools from ATTO many of us use only for its benchmarking tool. If you make a stripe using X's Disk Utility, you will not be able to see it in 9. Furthermore, it only allows 1 partition. Testing wise, I've been trying to get a handle on apple-striped volumes but its like comparing apples and oranges. My sense so far in using a cheetah stripe in X with Apple drivers, is that it's slow.

  12. #12
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    Stan,

    You don't say you are using or want to raid a couple drives, in which case Drive Setup or Disk Utility is the safest but HDST 3.5 ought to be okay.

    The word is that SoftRAID for X will have different RAID scheme and will not be able to view volumes created under one OS to work in the other. ATTO keeps saying that ExpressStripe is still "1.0" and plans to improve it, but no idea when.

    I expect OS X 10.5 "Jaguar" to bring changes to SCSI drivers and RAID.

  13. #13
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    atto just came out with a pro tools firmware up date or os x it seems to do the trick im running os 10.0.4.

    im having a whale of a time upgrading from copied 0s 10.1 cd
    i think i should use the original


    stan

  14. #14
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    well i spoke too soon, upgraded to os 10.1.4 and now osx doesnt read my cheetah, i can take stuff out but i cant put stuff in,aint that a bitch.

    uggggh

    stan

  15. #15
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    i installed the latest intech speed tools (3.5) .i formated my scsi. and it works on both os9x and os x. knock on wood !
    this makes me very happy

    however the real test will be video...

    one problem however is my scsi still seems to "go to sleep" in os x when not being used. whats the dealio with dat?

    stan

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    Stan,

    Make sure that Energy control panel is set to 'never' for disk drives.

    When you formatted with HDST did you make sure to turn off "Disable Wide Transfers" in the Tune preference? click on defaults, then turn that one off and enable "Allow Disconnects" so the system doesn't wait on the drive for I/O requests.

    Gregory

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    wow thanks a lot ! i took your advice and my scsi works well in both os 9x and os x... and not going sleep .

    are these the optimal setting for video editing ?


    thank again

    stan

  18. #18
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    I think under "Tune" there is an option for video mode settings. Most drivers have one. you can even use other utilities to change the mode pages and optimize for special needs to get the best performance.

    Gregory

  19. #19
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    no mine only has;

    disable wide transfers

    disable sync (fast/ultra) transfers

    never disconnect

    allow disconnect

    always diconnect


    the only one selected is allow disconect


    is this the best for video ?
    it seems to work ok

    i also have a terminator attached to my scsi drive.


    stan

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