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Thread: Medalist Pro vibrates - is this normal?

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    Hi all - I just attempted to install a Medalist Pro ST391040N 9GB hard drive in the upper bay of my 7600. I need something larger than the stock 1.3 GB I've had in there since day 1, and this one I got cheap (buyer beware, I know). I've got the wonderful ST318417N 18GB in the lower bay as my main drive, but really need a larger backup.

    To get to the point - this drive vibrates like it's going to take off! I had it fixed into the sled when I first turned things back on, and I thought the whole machine was going to explode! I then took it off the sled, started up again, and it still vibrates, but doesn't make the loud noise it did when it was on the sled. But, I can't run it this way, and certainly don't want to if the drive is bad.

    Is this a normal operating condition for this particular drive? Or should I chuck it and just get another matching 18GB that I know runs quiet?

    Another, sort of related question: What is the difference between a J2 jumper and a a Jumper Plug (shown in the manual to be of a different type than the J2.) Since I only had the J2 jumpers, I used one of those for the SCSI ID setting (I wanted to set it at 1 because the 18GB one is 0 and they are both running off a Bluenote card).

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    ST39140N I think is the drive you have? There's a product manaul and install guide, both pdf, at that page.

    Those internal brackets aren't really meant for some, and you want it secure, but not screwed down so that you damage the drive (screws can be too long and too tight). Best used inside an external case. Not a speed demon by any stretch, even on Blue Note. When not "nailed down" you want to be careful that the electronics are not compromised, on a surface that won't cause any electrostatic discharge.

    You want quiet, get one of the newest fluid dynamic or 'Cuda if you can find one. Even if you have to go with 68-pin to 50 and get a wide LVD drive.

    If you have an open PCI slot, you might want to try IDE. Or FireWire is another option.

    - G.

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    Gregory - yes, you are right. I wrote down an extra 0 in the number I gave. It is the ST39140N. I already have all the documentation on it, and was going thru it very carefully. I don't think it's anything I've done wrong, I just think the drive has seen better days. I can't imagine they shook this much out of the box.

    Has anyone else had experience with this drive and can tell me if the excessive vibration is normal? In any case, it looks like I'm going to have to go with a newer drive. What is a "fluid dynamic" drive? I found the Barracuda on a few sites for around $145-185. I may just get one. I don't want to be without a back-up for long. What I really need is another computer! It makes me nervous that I only have one, considering I make my living working on it. I really want to graduate to OSX, but am waiting for Quark to upgrade.

    Thanks.

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    Fluid bearings now replace ballbearing in most new but not all 10K and 15K drives to reduce wear caused by vibration that can also produce heat and cause trouble for the drive when performing seeks. All which lead a drive to "premature aging."

    A wide drive would be nice and be something that you could use later on. 36GB for same price as that 18GB drive. Add Miles2. Or use a Granite adapter for now. Even on the Blue Note it will run great due to 10K spindle and 8MB cache, so any of the latest Seagate or Maxtor SCSI 10K's would be good (the Seagate 15K has FDB, the 10K still uses BB, while Maxtor has incorperated FDB in its line of Atlas 10K and 15K drives).

    - G.

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    I would not use that drive, especially not for mission critical work related storage. Easiest solution would be another ST318417N Cuda.

    Jumper and Jumper Plug are the same. Some old Seagates had another jumper block, two sets of double pins, I forget what for, that required a larger size jumper to fit over them, PC size. The Seagate jumpers for J2 are too small and will bend or break those more widely spaced pins. I don't see that block of pins on the ST39140N however. k

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    I think I am leaning towards Kaye's suggestion to get another ST318417N. I just checked the Seagate site and they list a couple of other models, but no availability.

    ST318418N? ?Barracuda 36ES2? ?18 GB? ?Ultra SCSI? ?7200?RPM? ?7 ms avg? ?ELS&W (System Type)
    ST336918N? ?Barracuda 36ES2? ?37 GB? ?Ultra SCSI? ?7200?RPM? ?8.9 ms avg? ?ELS&W (System Type)

    Not sure what 36ES2 means, or the ELS&W System Type. Anybody know?

    Forgot to mention that I've got all 3 of my PCI slots filled - USB card, Radeon, Bluenote.

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    Just caught the explanation at the bottom of the Seagate page for what ELS&W means - Entry Level Systems and Workstations. I guess I qualify. :-)

    I feel I am definitely at the losing end of the upgrade path for this machine...

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    I'm guessing here but I think both of those Seagates are so new that they are not in the retail channel yet. k

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    Rebecca,

    Those were the last Narrow 50pin SCSI drives Seagate made. Not available thru Seagate Online anymore. Bought the very quiet 36GB ST336918N model last fall to replace the very noisy 2GB Hawk XL that came in my 8500. Found both of those drives and the ST318417N 18GB listed at Computer Giants & Bason Computer.

    Paul

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    Thanks Paul. Never knew they have the larger GB drive as well. k

    [This message has been edited by kaye (edited 19 April 2003).]

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    Thanks Paul - I did find a few retail outlets that carried them, but it's nice to have a few other choices. I guess I'd better just bite the bullet and buy one. I think since this is sort of a temporary fix for an aging computer, I will go with the 18GB, which is around $75 cheaper. Especially since I won't be able to take the drive with me to a future new machine.

    I just hope by the time I do buy a new machine I can still use this one as a backup! I seem to always be one computer behind the times.

    Thanks everyone for your suggestions, but one more thing...

    Is the vibrating a sign that the drive is kaput? I didn't leave it running long enough to test it. I know I can't use it in my machine, but would like to know what the vibration signals. Anyone?

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    The plastic sleds are themselves slightly loose, not "bolted down" like new machines with metal plates. The drive specs should show acoustics rating.

    Without hearing it, and unless you were to run Drive Setup to test the drive, hard to know. Some older 7200 rpm drives were real "egg beaters." At first I thought you'd bought one of the old "half-height" models which Seagate had in 9GB but which were 5.25" size, and weighed in at a hefty 16 lbs. Real old style. OWC had some two years back. Took up all of a dual drive case, and no way to ever put one inside.

    Disk drives today, ATA or SCSI, tend to offer more like 50MB/s while narrow drives max out at 20MB/s. That was why I would gently suggest using an LVD drive with adapter for now, so that later you could use a Miles2 or ATTO UL3S if you want to use SCSI for RAID or whatever. And at $179-189 either of the 10K drives I noted from Seagate or Maxtor, both 36GB might in the long run of things, be a better investment. And, would work on the Miles card you have now with a $39 adapter. I've done it with a 9GB Atlas 10K II and it really felt fast and snappy even on the 7300's FastSCSI internal native bus.

    - G.

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    Gregory - I appreciate your "nudge" to get me to go the LVD route. Let me say that the word "adapter" has always been something I've been told to avoid, even though I know that Granite makes good ones. (I know this from the Gurus previous sales pages)

    If all I need is an adapter and I can hook up the LVD to my Bluenote, then it might not be a bad idea, especially if the drive will work in a newer G3 or G4.

    As far as the vibrating drive - when it is not bolted down on the sled it is somewhat quiet, but it vibrates like a son of a gun! There is no way I could mount it into the machine unless it was covered with foam or something like that. My brother-in-law said that perhaps the bearings inside are out of whack. If I can do a drive test, would it tell me if there was something wrong mechanically? I'm just curious.

    I have one other issue regarding termination which has me stumped. About a year ago I expressed interest in getting another drive (it's taken me this long to actual get around to doing it!), and Louie suggested I add it to the Bluenote, which would've left the CD alone on the internal bus, which wouldn't work because it has no way to terminate.

    So, he had me do some testing to see if moving the CD to the BN chain would 'drag down' the performance of the main drive, but it didn't. After the testing I left my internal CD player connected to that chain because I knew I would be putting the new drive on that same chain. With the Bluenote, the manual says the one closest to the card is the beginning of the chain, and the end of the chain always has to be terminated, and my CD is on the end. It has been working fine in that configuration for quite awhile, so am I missing something? Or should I put it in the middle?

    Hope you guys don't mind a bit more pestering... :-)

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    Rebecca,

    I was not trying to crowd out Gregory's original suggestion of an LVD drive and Granite terminator. It would be an excellent choice for now and future migration to a later Mac. Was only thinking of the easiest solution to install.

    I have a utility that I can email to you that will do a thorough test of that drive. However, it is possible that the drive will pass the test with flying colors and yet the vibration might be the first indication of impending failure. Don't cover the drive with foam. You will be insulating it and there will be reduced heat dissipation. Any drive cools via dissipation thru the metal cage it is installed in and via the air above and below the drive.

    Regarding your question about termination, before Bluenote, was the CD-ROM drive already on the end of the internal SCSI chain? How do you know it is not terminated already? Some of them had terminating resistors instead of jumper pins for termination. Did you and Louie determine for sure that it was not terminated? I think if it was not terminated already and it is physically on the end of the SCSI cable, either Bluenote or your computer would choke on that. There is usually some info on the top or bottom of the CD-ROM case about jumper pins and termination resistors if it has them, as well as brand/model#. If you can get the exact brand and model number from there or via ASP or SCSIProbe or another utility, we can search for info about it. k

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    Kaye - I guess I should have winked at that comment about covering the drive in foam - I was just kidding! I can't imagine another kosher solution, however, unless it was to put it in an external case in another room!

    Here is info from ASP report on that CD Rom:

    SCSI Bus 2
    ID = 0
    Hard drive
    Driver version: 8.1.4
    Mac OS partitions: 4
    Removable media: No
    Vendor: SEAGATE
    Revision number: 0102
    Product ID: ST318417N
    Serial number: Not available
    Size: 18.39 GB (1K = 1000)
    Capacity: 17.13 GB (1K = 1024)

    ID = 3
    CD-ROM drive
    Driver version: 1.3.5
    Mac OS partitions: 0
    Removable media: Yes
    Vendor: MATSHITA
    Revision number: 8.0e
    Product ID: CD-ROM CR-8008
    Serial number: Not available

    I found Louie's original e-mail on the termination issue. He never mentioned if the drive had internal termination or not. What he said was "Since no Apple CD drives have the capability for termination, you can't run it alone on the bus." He then said to do the test with the CD at the end of the chain. It is still at the end and everything is working fine, so I have to assume it has built-in termination. I would much appreciate if you could verify that for me, though, or tell me where I could find the info. Originally it was at the beginning of the chain, with the only other device on that chain being the 1.4 GB hard drive.

    As long as you agree with Gregory on his suggestion (your opinion carries a lot of weight - no offense Greg), I think I will go that route and get a larger LVD drive. I am definitely going to buy another computer before the end of the year, and it would be nice if it wasn't wasted money spent.

    BTW, Gregory - how come you're not listed as a Moderator at the very least? You should be. You are one of the most consistent and generous posters. :-)

    Kaye, I know this is off-off topic, but is your daughter on her way home on the Lincoln? Or did she come home earlier? Would love to hear a report on her experience (what she can reveal, that is). Keep us posted!

    Becky

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    Kaye - thanks for your offer to send me a drive testing utility. I do have Integrity, but if you've got another one, I would love to have it. My e-mail address is in my profile.

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    Becky,

    FWB Configure is useful SCSI utility. Too bad it isn't available separately. Easy to retore a drive to its manufacturer defaults in a way that no other utility will. Or to tweak drive settings, either to manually edit mode pages, or let it optimize on its own. Sometimes a failed drive or one that is close to failure can be "restored" to normal health.

    I've done the LVD on narrow using Granite, and you want to make sure that the drive specifies that it supports UltraSCSI. Good use for older LVD drives on older systems. Early LVD/SE drives were only getting UltraSCSI or slightly better performance. A narrow drive can't compete with ATA in most cases anymore, but a good SCSI drive can deliver a real punch! in performance. It's the "entry fee" that scares folks away. "I need it yesterday" or "I don't want to spend a lot" but want the fastest possible.

    The other cost is learning. Seems like a sinkhole bottomless pit at times. Each RAID setup though gets better

    UL4S for today and tomorrow's systems, Granite goodies, a good drive, ~$750. What you get: 70MB/s, ability to add more drives and get 140/210MB/s with just 2/3 drives. No need for your disk drives to hold back your system and editing work. And the feel. Like a well-tuned instrument or car.

    If I had a "moniker" or label, well, I wouldn't want what I say to carry different weight.

    - G.

    [This message has been edited by Gregory (edited 20 April 2003).]

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    Greg - is this really what it will cost me to get a new drive?

    quote:
    UL4S for today and tomorrow's systems, Granite goodies, a good drive, ~$750. What you get: 70MB/s, ability to add more drives and get 140/210MB/s with just 2/3 drives.


    Is there anything more in the $300-500 range? If you can give me some options on models, etc. I can do some research on my own. Or point me to a good supplier. In a previous post you said:

    quote:
    Or use a Granite adapter for now. Even on the Blue Note it will run great due to 10K spindle and 8MB cache, so any of the latest Seagate or Maxtor SCSI 10K's would be good (the Seagate 15K has FDB, the 10K still uses BB, while Maxtor has incorperated FDB in its line of Atlas 10K and 15K drives).


    This is what I want to do - run it off the BN with a Granite adapter. Not sure what FDB and BB mean, though? Care to explain?

    Also, I didn't mean that because Kaye's title is more "prestigious" than yours I value his opinion more. I have just worked with him in the past more and know his reputation on this forum. It helped to have his blessing on your suggestion.

    I will definitely be ordering something this week - the earlier the better, so I need a crash course in all things LVD!

    Thanks so much for your time - it is much appreciated.

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    Rebecca,

    Integrity is an excellent utility for what you want to test. Louie and I have been using it since almost the day it first appeared. That was what I was going to send as an evaluation, to be deleted after the test since not paid for.

    Since your original SCSI chain was the CD-ROM drive first and the HD last, it would be natural to assume that the CD drive is unterminated. However, I have seen Apple machines of that vintage with the same two drives in that order and both terminated, and yet it works. I can't find the info on the Matshita CR-8008. I guess the only possible way is to see what, if anything, is on the case. But I'm going to guess that it is terminated via resistor packs because I just can't imagine your config working with no termination on the last device.

    I'm going to defer to Gregory on the LVD drive selection. I am only a Seagate LVD user but he and Rick and others know more about the Quantum/Maxtor drives here http://www.hypermicro.com/store/scsihdd.htm than I do. You will want a Granite adapter http://www.granitedigital.com/catalog/pg01_adapters.htm which he can help you select.

    Last, my daughter was released from the Lincoln after it left the Persian Gulf the first time and was on its way to Australia for some maintenance. She was back home in Bothell, WA and was finally honorably discharged. Just a few days afterwards, the Lincoln was sent back to the Persian Gulf and all personnel were frozen in place on the ship, only one sailor was allowed to leave because he had an emergency going on with his family at home. I was holding my breath because I had a very strong suspicion that the Lincoln would go back to the Gulf because there just weren't enough carriers out there if the Air Force was not going to be able to use bases in Turkey. Right up to the last day before discharge, she could have been frozen and returned to the Lincoln. I know I was happy, but I think she was a bit ambivalent, glad to be home but feeling that she needed to be with those folks on the Lincoln. k

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    For today, you just need a drive - and maybe an adapter to get you through.

    I was pointing out "what's over the horizon" if you decide to go for a full LVD setup.

    * Replacing the Blue Note with an ATTO controller
    * Granite cable
    * Granite terminator
    - LVD drives lack termination

    Those Fluid Dynamic Bearings vs. Ball Bearings helps reduce noise and vibrations but a minor issue in the scheme of things.

    A lot of people look at ATA and how it has improved and stay with that. Nobody knows if or when Apple will include Serial ATA which promises to offer near SCSI performance for slightly less but its in its infancy.

    Buying a drive today, in the 36GB capacity, 8MB cache, 10K rpm from Seagate (or Maxtor) is an option. Even adding the cost of an adapter, it's still ~$250 total if you include shipping.

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