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Thread: OSX abd SCSI

  1. #1
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    I have 5 SCSI disks attached to my G4. Is there any way to get OSX installed on them. The OSX installation disk refuses to recognize the disks when I boot from it. The drivers are all HDST and the disk formatted properly

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    If you boot into the OSX installer disk you might try the pull down menu from there for Drive Utility. OSX Drive Utility is a whole bunch stronger than OS9 Drive Setup and does a great jod as OSX and OS9 drivers. It should be able to install its driver over the HDST driver.


    I have no idea if SpeedTools is OSX compatible. Try Drive utility and see. When you do your install consider making a separate and quite small partition for your Classic resources. Starting up Classic from OSX and allowing it to use your regular OS9 system causes way to many posible problems by my way of thinking. You remove that by giving Classic a home of its own. A couple a hundred MB should do it on that partition.

    Hope that solves it.

    Rick

  3. #3
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    Rick: Many thanks for the advice. I'm going to try your advice. One of the things I'm worried about is that the SCSI disks don't even show up on the desktop when I boot from theOSX disk. Do I need separate OSX driveers for the SCSDI cards? Tony

  4. #4
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    Tony,

    You may very well need to update the firmware on your scsi cards. What cards are you running?

    When you're booted on the OSX CD you can also run Apple System Profiler which will tell you a lot. If the card shows up but doesn't show a rom or firmware version that may be a good indicator that you need to upgrade the firmware.

    There are even quite a few scsi hosts that are simply not compatible with OSX. This isn't the fault really of the manufacturer, many cards were designed before anyone knew what the details were on OSX.

    Check it out, I'll be happy to help you figure it out. You can almost always go to the manufacturers site and open their support page to find out what it takes to be OSX compatible with the product you have. That's the first place to start, I guess, if you can't get the drives to mount.

    Rick

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    Rick: In one slot I have a Miles U2W, and that has a driver that should allow the disk to show up. Another contains an initio Bluenote and the last SCSI slot has an Apple 53C875 card (underneath it says NCR8750.

    Internally I have two ATA drives, one 57 gigs and the other 31 gigs. Both of these show up now sweat, and one has OSX on it, though I didn't put the OSX and 9.2.2 on separate partitions. I should and will do that one of these days. I have a striped array (two Seagate Cheetahs) on one card, and it shows up on the OSX startup disk. so that must be the U2W. The Bluenote Card is dedicated to a Scanwit 2740 slide Scanner. The Apple Card has three disks running off it with a total of 68 Gigs between the three disks... I suppose the Bluenote will have to have another driver to make it compatible with OSX also. Right now the major problem seems to be the driver for the Apple card...Tony

  6. #6
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    Ricks: I downloaded the proper drivers and OSX now sees the scsi drives but the original disk (OSX 1.0) which must be installed before you can update, won't see them... What a mess. Tony.

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    First, let me say, sorry for the lengthy editorial.

    Catch-22. OS X 10.1 has older driver than what I need. one 'solution' is to burn a CD (don't have a burner) or a working OS X system, say one not on the scsi drive/controller. I can't boot OS X to install with 10.1 but I can't install the necessary drivers from OS 9. Sort of like "I can't boot my new G-whiz from the older OS 6.03 disk I got with my first computer." I need 9.2.4 as a minimum. Well, I NEED 10.1.5 it seems.

    I have an OS X .dmg backup of my system. BUT. Can't mount it in OS 9 !! And I don't want to remove and install different scsi controllers to get around it. Or use IDE.

    If I could copy the OS X CD to disk and modify that and install from a disk image, that too would help. I've tried. I keep .img files of most of my CDs.

    I have a .pkg to install the Adaptec 39160 driver. What I need is just the .kext files etc and where they go, what to remove. A way to "tell" XPostFacto to add that to the OS X startup volume.

    It took a long time to fix and get open firmware for OS 9 working. Maybe OS X will, but right now, I don't think it "plays nice." The CD is now 7 months old. There is no full 10.1.4 CD for us, and probably won't be until what? August and MWNY and 10.2 ??

    By then, Inito, Adaptec and SoftRAID will have 'matured' and Apple should have some 'feedback' from developers as well as the results of the latest API documentation and tools bearing fruit.

    People think Microsoft has a strangle hold? Palm "owns" the PDA market, but people (lemming-like) will buy a M$ PDA because they hope it will work (better). When really the reverse is true. Apple has total control - as much as they can muster - if only they had a decent Office and browser (CyberDog OpenDoc was promising).

    I ordered Darwin 1.5.1 (aka 10.2 point) and want to see what it can do and be from an Open Source point, rather than the lock on hardware and OS we live under. Take a look at Mozilla. It's been a rough year but their 1.0 really rocks.

    I wish Apple allowed for more of the functionality of XPostFacto. The ability to install drivers from OS 9 first. or afterward. Build the boot block and add the driver extensions, create a FLOPPY bootloader even ! that has what *I* need to boot a system.

    I have a 39160 that is not bootable and cannot install OS X to a drive connected, and even then there are some drives (IBM, Quantum, even Seagate) that aren't supported. All because of supposedly Open Firmware issues.

    The more I know about linux and BSD or Darwin, as well as operating systems in general, I think it helps me understand what is happening or what 'should' happen here. I don't know diddley about Windows (and hope to remain ignorant if possible!).

    Gregory

    [This message has been edited by Gregory (edited 21 April 2002).]

  8. #8
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    Gregory: Have you tried Xpost Facto - a free utility to enable OSXto install on old macs? (http://eshop.macsales.com/OSXCenter) The url was in the Macworld Total OSX issue, which I bought off the newstand. It might help you out, but it didn't help me. I have two CD burners, but don't know where to start and am not impressed with the drivers, even thought the disks are recognized...Tony

  9. #9
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    Tony,

    My apologies for not seeing your postings on wednesday. I can't believe that I missed it.

    Gregory has probably tried as many installs as anyone with OSX and XPostFacto. One talented dude! His post on the difficulties with scsi cards and support in OSX is, if nothing else, a study in the real world frustration that has come with having mixed host cards.

    I have not tried Intech SpeedTools in OSX, is their latest version OSX compatible? I like Apples Drive Utility, but you must be able to see the drives to install that as your driver. I'd also hate to have to reinitialize and go through all that comes from backingup and moving the data from those drives. There must be a better way.

    You say you have two burners and are NOT satisfied with how they perform, what drivers there? That's a problem I haven't heard from OSX users unless it was with unsupported burners. There's a good data base at xlr8yourmac on supported CD/DVD/RWs.

    Another way to get your OSX root folder onto another disk is to use Carbon Copy Cloner. You can download CCC from VersionTracker.com, from Apple via their 'Get OSX Software' pages. It will duplicate your root folder when you loggin as root or admin. Then you can connect to Apple and run upgrades to 10.1.4. I download the installers versus running Software Update so I can update more than one system folder or computer.

    Once you have the newer version of OSX installed you can work on other drivers and whatnot. You may not find any drivers yet for the slide scanner, Gregory turned me on to VueScanX to try on my Canon scanner which also has no drivers available from Canon.

    Most of us only have to figure out a couple of compatibility issues with OSX, I don't envy you your multitudes.

    My apologies again for misiing your posts, thanks to Gregory for going back and catching that.

    Rick

  10. #10
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    Gregory, Another option to burning a Cd is if you have a spare drive about 1GB you can transfer the CD onto the drive with Apple Software Update and install the updated drivers on that drive. You could then boot that drive to install onto another drive. This worked quite well for me the first time I installed OS X before Ryan figured out how to boot directly from the CD.

  11. #11
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    redress, looking at all the ".kext" files aka kernel extensions (drivers) on my OSX bootable disk, there does not seem to be a driver for any of the SCSI cards you have.

    It may not be possible to install OS X to a drive on the cards you have. It may be possible to install X on an ATA partition, use Carbon Copy Cloner to clone the installation to a drive on a scsi card. You must check the card manufacturers for a driver they may have. If there is one you could put the .kext driver it in the "/system/library/extensions" folder that resides on the drive connected to the scsi card. From OS 9 then select the OS X disk (that contains the new driver) from startup disk cp and try to boot from it.

    I suggest you go to Initio's web site an look for an OS X driver for the Inito cards and try my suggestion above. Its unlikely the NCR card will have a driver.

    I installed 10.04 CD directly onto an Adaptec 2930 SCSI card the other day without a hitch, of course there is a .kext for this card thus the reason why it was possible to install to any drive on the card. BTW you can't install directly with a 10.1 upgrade disk and of course you can't install onto an array.

    Let us know how it works out.

  12. #12
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    Ricks: I have an internal Sony burner in the G4 and an external Yamaha 8-8-24 running on a firewire connection. I have two ATA drives in the G4 and have OSX installed on one of them, but I did the installation before people came out with the dictum that you should partition the drive into two equal segments and put X on one and 9.2.2 on the other. One of these days I'll remedy that.
    This machine stays on all the time and the SCSI drives don't. I only fire them up when I use them and wanted to put OSX on one for the same reason that people climb mountains - because it's there.
    The scanner is an Acer 2740S and I've been using VueScan software for a long time. I just haven't tried to work with slides on OSX yet, and the scanner does not yet show up on the desktop in OSX though it's running through one of the Miles cards, a Bluenote.
    I have a lot of music on the ATA drives and use the SCSI drives to back it up. I have several thousand of my father's slides from Antarctica and from Japan in the 1940s (I grew up in Tokyo during the occupation) and 1950s. That's why I have the scanner and it works quite satisfactorily in 9.2.2. Trust I can figure out from what you fellows told me how to do this.

  13. #13
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    You have a complicated system, well, I guess you know that. Sony here, Initio here and there, and so on. I'll bet you get it all figured out eventually. I have OSX installed on three drives on my G4. On a Siig Hardware RAID card with 2 Baracuda IVs I have OSX Server. On each of 2 IBM 60 GXPs I have 10.1.4 installed. I never have an issue with mounting SCSI drives or installing on them with the ATTO card.

    I couldn't even get OSX to see a miles2 on my 8500 when I installed OSX. I finally just pulled the drive and went back to the 10MB internal bus. Slow bootup let me tell ya.

    When you say you don't run the scsi all the time but you run the G4 all the time do you shut down and reboot to mount the scsi drives? You shouldn't power up scsi while your computer is running. I have had a couple of huge wrecks doing that while trouble shooting a dead drive. Destroyed yhe index on the system boot drive completely when I powered another drive on the bus, had to do a restore on it and pull the data off in pieces.

    On the scanner, first you'll need to flash the Bluenote to OSX firmware version, pull the devices off of Initio cards when you flash them. Then use Apple System Profiler to see if your bus can see the scanner. If it's only a lack of driver then it will see it and say no driver. Then you can go after drivers for the scanner.

    Keep at it. It's all worth the effort, OSX rocks. I love this Photoshop7 that I got friday, Other than scanner software I am totally OSX, Yeah.

    Rick

  14. #14
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    Ricks:
    Twice in replying to messages on this form I have hit the tab key and had the whole damned thing disappear into the ether. You can't use the tab key between paragraphs on this message form. Can you wizards fix this problem?
    I have not been disconnecting the devices when I flash the card. Will do so henceforth. Nor have I been turning off the machine, turning on the SCSI externals, and then rebooting. Normally I power them up and mount them with HDST. Perhaps I've been lucky.
    One disturbing thing about the dialogue from Initio is that is asks you for the SCSI ID number of the card you're flashing. I've been supposing that what they really want is the slot number. I have three SCSI chains, so the SCSI ID can be duplicated three times. What's your take on this one. I have found Pogue's book OSX THE MISSING MANUAL helpful and have also discovered som information in the new MACWORLD publication. You have to dig for what you need and you have to fool with the machinery - that's really the only way to figure things out other than asking you guys. I certainly do thank you for the help....Tony Austin

  15. #15
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    Ricks: Neglected to tell you that Hamrick has OSX software (Vuescan) bundled with the regular software. His scanner software is head and shoulders above what's bundled with the Acer and he comes out with an update almost monthly. The guy works for his software fees, which are extremely reasonable. You can download the stuff and try it...Tony

  16. #16
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    Convention is that we designate host cards as SCSI ID#7. Host cards or the motherboard on motherboard factory bus's always reside at ID#7. That gives you, the installer, ID#0 through ID#6 and, if you were to need them you can go with ID#8 through ID#15. THat should probably be enough ID numbers anyway.

    The host card will have a SCSI ID Conflict with another device on the scsi chain if it is the same ID as that other device. So run your Initio software with it in mind that you want ID#7 at the host.

    Rick

  17. #17
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    First off dude, since you have 3 SCSI cards your Mac should report bus information as well as device ID.
    Your Initio Miles may be SCSI Bus 0, ID 7. Another card may be SCSI bus 1, ID 7 for example.

    However, i think it is only asking your the SCSI ID of the Card you are trying to flash. It is highly likely the flasher will not see the other cards (on different busses) since the firmware is not destined for them. If your not so sure best bet is to pull the other 2 SCSI cards out boot from the ata disk and flash the card. You of course should know the ID of the card. It's likely to be 7. MT Everything will give you information.

    Ketone

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