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MistyBreeze
04-16-2007, 03:58 PM
Here is my Hardware Overview:

Machine Name: Power Mac G4
Machine Model: PowerMac3,6 M8570 (two FW400 but no FW800)
CPU Type: PowerPC G4 (3.2)
Number Of CPUs: 2
CPU Speed: 1.25 GHz
L2 Cache (per CPU): 256 KB
L3 Cache (per CPU): 2 MB
Memory: 2 GB
Bus Speed: 167 MHz
Boot ROM Version: 4.4.7f1
Internal Hard Drive Capacity: 120GB, currently 46GBs available

I have one LaCie 120GB external, which is partitioned with 2 Scatch Disks, 8GBs each for Photoshop. 50GBs remains available.
I have a second LaCie 300GB that I use for storage and back-up. 100GBs remain available.

Ever since I upgraded to Photoshop CS2 (last Fall), 16-bit photo files start to slow down dramatically at 150mb. Before CS2 I was able to get near 1gb before I noticed a dramatic slow down.

Since my G4 is maxxed on memory and I have plenty of space available on my Scratch Disk, my NYC Mac tech (who services many photographers) tells me, in order to see the time and capacity benefits of working on 1GB files in CS, I need to upgrade my Mac. He said spending $300+ on a G4 HD upgrade will not provide any appreciable difference in Photoshop. Is he correct?

I was considering installing an eSATA Seagate internal HD (with the correct PCI Card) and designating it as Scratch exclusively for Photoshop but my NYC tech says, given 2GBs of memory, the Scratch upgrade benefit will be minimal. (Now I read on the Apple Forums, the #1 tech keeps dogging the Seagates when they're the most popular choice among photogaphers I know. He says BareFeets data discloses Seagate's flaws. But I couldn't find his sources.)

I'm sure upgrading to a new Mac Pro will have its benefits but everyone I know experiences painful down-time during major upgrades. I'm not sure I'm ready to endure the pain. Also, how compatible is my current software collection on an Intel-based Mac? Must I purchase everything new?

Thanks for any help and advice. :)

TZ
04-16-2007, 05:23 PM
Depends on your needs and budget.

Seagate is okay... in a RAID. A RAID will help make up for your limited 2GB RAM.

You should seriously consider investing in SATA - for now and for down the road if you go with a Mac Pro.

You do NOT want to use FW400 for scratch though. eSATA or some internal SATA drives. It isn't the free space, it is that FW400 is limited to 40MB/sec and you want more like 200MB/sec if possible. Some use 4-8 drive 10K Raptors or 15K SCSI.

I only see down-time when the conversion is not done properly or with planning. A Mac Pro would be easier and faster. But plan to install 4-6GB RAM for those 1GB files, fill it out with disk drives (10K Raptor, WD 500GB RE2s).

The SATA drives would carry forward so only the controller would be "lost" on moving to Mac Pro. But you will want to upgrade to CS3 at some point probably, too.

Check out the "Photoshop CS3" and other threads and the Photoshop Performance Guide pdf and test suite.

Even putting some 300GB drives in would help. For faster better boot drive, for scratch and RAID, and for data files. The Maxtor DM10 300GB 16MB cache was popular. 500GB is the "new" 300.

Seagate articles from Barefeats:
http://www.barefeats.com/hard78.html
http://www.barefeats.com/quad07.html

ricks
04-16-2007, 05:29 PM
Hey Misty,

Welcome to the forum. I will happily address some of this based on some testing we have done here. Others will have some personal observations and references to test results such as the afore mentioned Barefeats test results.

First, Seagate drives are wonderful.... at everything except random access rates. They trail drives like the Hitachi, in performance, by quite a margin in random access - and unfortunately - random is pretty much what scratch, application and OS drives do.

Seagate excels at sequential access, like that of a data drive or a streaming media drive. Big file sizes are what a Seagate drive is good at. So storing your photos on them is great. Using one for the OS or for scratch is less great.


Scratch. Using a Firewire drive is somewhat self defeating for a scratch drive. Firewire is cumbersome. Because it has one bridge board converting the data from IDE at the motherboard, and another bridge board converting back to IDE at the drive, Firewire has performance weaknesses that make it about the worse choice, short of USB, for attaching a scratch disk.

Scratch is very dependent on latency. And latency is really just how long it takes for the data to start moving. The lower the latency, the more 'ram-like' a scratch disk is. And really, all a scratch disk is is an extension of your RAM. So the faster it is, the less damage it will do to your wait times during processing.

I would have to say that using a FW drive defeats most of the benefits from designating a drive for scratch. Also, using a partition is a bad thing that adds to the latency of the drive. Partitions force a drive to make the most use of the slowest part of a computer: the mechanical movement of the heads. By forcing a drive to move from one partition to another, especially for scratch where latency is so important, you bring to the forefront the head travel that is so slow. That becomes the overriding factor in how fast the scratch disk is. Stick with a dedicated drive that if it has partitions, those partitions are never used while the scratch disk is active. It is ok to use the second part of a drive for backup, as long as it isn't being used during your Photoshop activities.

In short, the faster and cleaner the path to a scratch disk the better. SATA drives and SCSI are great for this as every drive, for the most part, gets 100% full access. No bridges, no converters to get in the way.

RAM. Well, 2 GB is not a lot today. OSX will use up to 512 of that and Photoshop can use a bunch more without even getting to the work file itself. With files sizes in the 300 MB range I have seen scratch use over 40 GIGABYTES with a 2 GB of RAM! History files, how big the raw image is and what types of filters and adjustments are being made, all these things play on how much RAM and scratch space is being used. It is really easy to justify 50 or more GB of fast scratch disk space.

No one answer can fit any photoshop user. Every hardware setup has an infinite variety of available modifications and configurations. Every last user will do different processes with Photoshop and benefit from different types of configuration changes. Every last suggestion made has to be taken as a generalization and they all must be made to fit YOUR personal setup and usage. We all are happy to help accomplish that. Lots and lots of varied experience here. But realize that conflicts in configurations will abound. There are just too many variables for even a group like this to always agree on even what might seem the simplest of suggestions.

Rick

MistyBreeze
04-16-2007, 09:38 PM
Great, intelligent responses! Thank you, TZ and ricks, for taking the time to help.

"Depends on your needs and budget."
Much like life, I guess. I just made the switch 8 months ago to shooting digital. If pumping $300-$500 into my G4 can buy me another year and sustained enjoyment in CS2, putting off the inevitable $5000 investment until a more liquid month could eliminate a lot of stress. I'm not a large format image-maker but I love retouching on the highest quality file I can until it's time to resample down. Plus, I plan to use the G4 until it dies at a secondary station.

"Seagate is okay... in a RAID. A RAID will help make up for your limited 2GB RAM."
I've read that it only takes 2 HDs to make a RAID and I guess there's room for this in my CPU. With eager motivation and a desire to release my inner geek, is this something I can create for myself? Where do I find how-to instructions to create a simple RAID to suit my workflow needs? What size HDs? Are both RAID HDs used exclusively for Photoshop and kept empty otherwise?

"You do NOT want to use FW400 for scratch though. eSATA or some internal SATA drives. It isn't the free space, it is that FW400 is limited to 40MB/sec and you want more like 200MB/sec if possible."
"Using a Firewire drive is somewhat self defeating for a scratch drive."
Suddenly, this makes perfect sense to me. FW800 was either not available or not in my purview when I purchased my workstation and, of course, I wasn't working with 90MB RAW files back then, either. Obviously, I have grown but my CPU hasn't.

I recently purchased the OWC Serial ATA 2 Channel PCI/PCI-X 32 Bit Controller Card w/SATA and eSATA Ports and Seagate's eSATA 500-GB External Hard Drive (ST3500601XS-RK). They're both due to arrive soon. I need the external for storing RAW archives and this HD/PCI Card was recommended. This solves some storage issues but it got me thinking about Photoshop's performance. Since I have to open the CPU to install the PCI Card, why not tackle the addition of an internal drive.

"The SATA drives would carry forward so only the controller would be "lost" on moving to Mac Pro. But you will want to upgrade to CS3 at some point probably, too."
I like the "carry forward" thinking and, yes, I will want CS3 eventually. But I have to say, I'm quite happy with CS2 and I own Lightroom but haven't installed it yet. I still rely on Camera Raw because it's familiar and Bruce Fraser was my teacher.

"Even putting some 300GB drives in would help. For faster better boot drive, for scratch and RAID, and for data files. The Maxtor DM10 300GB 16MB cache was popular. 500GB is the "new" 300."
I hear this and I will look into the Maxtor. I would probably enjoy a better boot drive but I don't have the stomach to deal with major surgery. I couldn't imagine surviving a clean install or a "what happens if something goes wrong" situation. I keep most work off the boot drive anyway and deal only with images I'm currently working on. For me, the boot drive is for OS and Apps. I've been quite happy with this set up since day one. Plus, I've never backed-up my entire system. Only the most important files (jobs, email, and Palm) are backed-up. I can live without the play data if something serious happens.

"Seagate excels at sequential access, like that of a data drive or a streaming media drive. Big file sizes are what a Seagate drive is good at. So storing your photos on them is great. Using one for the OS or for scratch is less great."
I guess storage was the subject of many pro discussions and Seagate seemed to be the preference among many successful photographers. I may have assumed the Seagate name stood for very high quality among internals, as well, especially when I started seeing all the positive press on Barracuda.

"Stick with a dedicated drive that if it has partitions, those partitions are never used while the scratch disk is active. It is ok to use the second part of a drive for backup, as long as it isn't being used during your Photoshop activities."
I'm not partial to partitions. These were created for me back when Photoshop 7 ruled the day. Maybe it made sense then but clearly I need to shift gears asap. I have no problem dedicating one internal or two RAID to facilitate Photoshop. I'm not a HD hog and see no reason why I would need to use part of those "CS2 designated" internal drives to store other files. I can afford external storage and, like I said, prefer to keep all non-immediately-pertinent files off the CPU.

"RAM. Well, 2 GB is not a lot today."
I know but, prior to CS2, I was doing OK. I prefer 40 History states and it isn't common for me to rise to a 1GB file. But, depending on how great the fashion styling, make-up, and hair, it's easy to see those layers increase.

"No one answer can fit any photoshop user."
And, lucky for me, I'm smart enough to realize I need to figure out my needs, then my options, and then do the work. That's why I came here. MacGurus has a great rep at Luminous Landscape.

Feel free to guide me further. I appreciate the brain power. Thank you! :)

unclemac
04-16-2007, 11:04 PM
Howdy,

Thought I might add some of that hard-to-find barfeats info. Keep in mind this is for SATA drives, so would only work with a PCI SATA controller:

http://www.barefeats.com/hard78.html

For the record, you can get two ATA drives in your MDD, one on each bus.......one in each of the two internal drive trays. Each tray actuall holds two drives - 4 total, but for optimal performance, you only want one ATA drive on each bus.

If you add your SATA PCI card, then you could have a total of 4 internal drives......2 ATA on using the the built-in cables, and two connected to the SATA card.

Only problem is, with 4 internal drives, you may a have heat problem, so we don't usually recommend that setup. I have seen some MDDs perform fine with 3 or 4 drives in them, but I have seen a couple that kick into high fan mode with a little CPU load. The best way to avoid the heat issue is to use only 1 or 2 internal drives, and go external with the rest. eSATA is the fastest, cost effective way to go external.

OK, turning you back over to the photoshop experts.......:)

Boyd 9
04-17-2007, 12:53 AM
Here's my two bits, FWIW.....

If you can swing it, get a burly enclosure from the Gurus.... I've just got a little two-bay one, but I absolutely adore it. It's hot swap.... can't be beat for day to day to use and backups. It's SO flexible, and the drives stay nice and cool too..... you won't have ANY worries of overheating your MDD with extra internal drives when you got one of these instead.... and with SATA, well, it's as fast as can be (depending on the drives, of course).

By all means please consider doing regular full back ups. I use super duper.....others here prefer Carbon Copy Cloner. I've got my boot and users disks installed in my Quicksilver, and my backup drives in the burly..... everything is cloned and backed up automatically thanks to an easy to use interface in Super Duper.

Another thing that may help, if you haven't already done it, is consider separating your 'users' file from your boot disk and onto its own separate hard drive. Instructions for how to do this can be found on this site (Damien has a great website for this), and I feel it really does help with system performance day to day, altho I admit I ain't doing anything nearly as intensive as you are.

Good luck and let us know how it goes..... this is a great group to help troubleshoot and bounce ideas off of, as you already know.

TZ
04-17-2007, 02:23 AM
Some general thoughts....

Seagate made their name with SCSI, not really ATA. They were known for reliability at a time when 40% of IBM 75GXPs were frying their DSP chips, but over-stating their ATA performance numbers. You can see where not losing your data was important, and how valuable a name is for market purposes.

I clone and restore my system every day. Have always used one drive just for OS.

If you do add an ATA internal drive, you can some day throw it into FW case and use it there.

2/3 full is "full" in our world. New 320GB drive for boot and another for internal media (users) would be nice.

Just noticed "8GB scratch partitions." Ouch! I'd love to see 3 10K Raptors or 3 300GB SATA drives in RAID just for scratch and open things up. 8GB is small for your needs. Not sure about what history is doing to you.

I think you will be surprised how easy and useful SuperDuper and cloning and moving a system and files to new drives can be. And what a couple new drives will do, and then, address getting serious about some external scratch burly. 3 drives for scratch, and one SATA drive for backup storage.

The MDD was always loud and kept it in closet or small room off my office. Until I got a Mac Pro and (didn't) hear how quiet a computer can be. Now I never use the old G4. And I feel like, after over six months, I've settled into using it and configured way I need - but from the first day, it was much much more productive.

yeungfeng
04-17-2007, 03:13 AM
Things that will speed up your Mac.

Having Max of RAM, you've done that.

Faster Computer Processing Unit, yours is 1.25 Ghz. Usually expensive even if you do it yourself, more than you want to spend. Can't take it with you.

Hard Drive, YES! SATA, 10,000 RPM Raptor 150 GB HD as Boot HD. Use your 500GB Seagate as storage and backup (Partitioned for system repairs on Raptor OS). Maybe replace drive on the ATA bus in your MDD with a larger drive. Work on the SATA backup data to the ATA drive. SATA is fast and you can take it with you.

Having upgraded this old Digital Audio, RAM makes the OS work better. The 1.6 Dual CPU and the Raptor make it zoooooooom:dance:

Plus everything everyone else has mentioned, it's all true and good stuff. I've learn so much from them...that's why they are the GURUs:)

TZ
04-17-2007, 07:26 AM
Something to think about:

Refurbished Mac Pro Quad 2.66GHz Intel Xeon
Two 2.66GHz Dual-Core Intel Xeon processors
1GB (2 x 512MB) memory (667MHz DDR2 fully-buffered DIMM ECC)
250GB Serial ATA 3Gb/s 7200-rpm hard drive
16x SuperDrive (double-layer)
NVIDIA GeForce 7300 GT graphics with 256MB memory
$2200

Refurbished Mac Pro Quad 2.0GHz Intel Xeon
Two 2.0GHz Dual-Core Intel Xeon processors
1GB (2 x 512MB) memory (667MHz DDR2 fully-buffered DIMM ECC)
250GB Serial ATA 3Gb/s 7200-rpm hard drive
16x SuperDrive (double-layer)
NVIDIA GeForce 7300 GT graphics with 256MB memory
Your price: $1,899.00

Apple Store Specials
http://store.apple.com/

TZ
04-17-2007, 07:40 AM
Comments from Apple Mac Pro Discussions: (http://discussions.apple.com/category.jspa?categoryID=194)


A new preference in PS CS3 is labeled "GPU Settings: Detected Video Card" with an option to "Enable 3D Acceleration". Even if you don't plan on doing any 3D work in Photoshop, that's a clue that PS is at least acknowledging what you have under the hood.

Given the low (?) price of the ATI card option ($250 BTO) , I'd say it's a no brainer to include it. (the only reason I didn't get it is because at the time, it would have taken more than a month for delivery)

The sweet spot for Photoshop RAM is 6-8 gigs. I don't routinely work with 1GB files ... but when I have, I can tell you PSCS3 (beta) and 6GB of RAM handles it VERY nicely.

However if you can swing it, an 8 gig (2 - 2x2GB) kit would be the ideal starting point given the file sizes you're working with. Otherwise, try Ned's suggestion of an additional 4x1GB. (don't buy RAM from Apple though)

Just noticed your current machine - I upgraded from similar (DP 1GHz Quicksilver) -- prepare to be blown away!
___________________

I upgraded to a Mac Pro last summer (the day after they came out). It was remarkably easy to do in FWTD mode. I'd also say that Mac Pro is probably the best path also. My previous desktop was a G4 tower that I'd gradually upgraded over the years (memory, processor, larger hard drives). The ability to upgrade gradually really makes the extra initial cost pay off in the long run.

MistyBreeze
04-18-2007, 10:25 AM
The good news: I managed to get return authorization for the Seagate External 500GB. Given the excellent advice offered here, I felt it prudent to take more time and think my options through. At this point, I'm not completely clear if the OWC Serial ATA Controller Card I purchased is the best choice and I've received RMA approval to return that. I think I need to know what I'm buying and why before I go shopping.

Here are some more thoughts and reactions to the latest posts:

"I have seen some MDDs perform fine with 3 or 4 drives in them, but I have seen a couple that kick into high fan mode with a little CPU load."
My G4 suffered for awhile with high-fan mode issues as I upgraded the OS (and all Apps). Last summer, I had to take my machine in for start-button repair to the Apple Store in Soho and I mentioned my insane high-fan noise. I told the counter-guy that I read that Apple has some kind of fix. He shrugged his shoulder and sounded discouraging (I'm convinced that's their MO). When I got the G4 back and looked at my receipt, I noticed the comments, "High-fan noise." When I got the G4 re-hooked, lo and behold, it no longer was kicking into high-fan mode so I figured the service guy had done something. It's been fine ever since.

My G4 is ridiculously loud, always has been. But loud in NYC is relative. The high-fan mode made it sound like a jet-liner about to take off. So, now, I'm questioning the prudence of installing heat-producing interior hard drives, given my previous fan issues (with only a boot drive). It should be noted, my G4 hangs from a Knoll Clamp under the desk. My workstation is in the center of my space and rests against no walls. Room ventilation is a mini-hurricane. My small, daylight studio is on the 20th floor. This has been the setup from day one.

Ideally, I think changing the original boot drive to the 150 GB 10K Raptor SATA, as TZ suggested, sounds like a great idea and a smart place to begin a serious upgrade, considering my needs. But I haven't a clue how to do this and prevent screw-ups. Plus, my assistant warns me it's a two-day clean install, which scares the shit out of me. Without a smart techie I trust, holding my hands through this process, I feel I'm at the insecure mercy of my own lack of knowledge and experience. I think I need to find a smart Mac-IT college student who will accept $20 an hour to hold my hand.

Why hasn't some genius Mac Tech Guy produced a "How To Guide," complete with Quick Time, and offered it for sale to the masses of folks like me trying to save money and do this stuff on our own. I can't be the only person who sees the great value and lucrative possibilities for such a teaching service/venture. I realize everyone may have their own unique situation to contend with but is there no way to design a variety of comprehensive tutorials? Even if I didn't follow through with it, I'd still buy the damn thing, especially if it sold for $12. Look what Jeff Schewe and Michael Reichmann did with the Lightroom Tutorial! Pure genius, if you ask me. (Yes, I bought it and I still haven't installed Lightroom, yet. See what I'm sayin'?)

Second ideal decision: I think installing one second interior SATA drive makes sense, if both of these upgrades won't irritate and blow my fan issues. That's it for the interior. I would use the second drive exclusively for Photoshop Scratch and store nothing on it. I would keep all my "user" files off the internal drives (as I do now) and install a SATA controller card for exterior hard drive connections.

Third ideal decision: Use external SATA drives for storage, back-ups, and archival. The Two-Bay Burly, mentioned by Boyd 9, sounds great, with or without the internals. If internal heat is a worthy concern, then this may be my smartest decision moving forward. I don't shoot every week (and no plans to start) so I don't anticipate a need for instant access to 6 external hard drives. I like the idea of archival drives safely stored, unplugged and out of sight. The burly sounds like a great way to give me more than enough disk space for current projects, SATA speed, and the ability to increase disk count as the archive grows. Plus, it will work with a Mac Pro upgrade.

Please, readers, tell me if I'm on the right track and haven't loss too many brain cells. Is there any place I can find detailed "how to" info on "upgrading boot drive" that's worded for non-tech people like myself? What do you think of my hiring a Mac-graphics IT college student who does this stuff as his favorite hobby? NYC pros are getting $120 an hour, which kinda makes upgrading pointless.

Thank you all for your help and contributions to this thread.

ps RE: Refurbished Equipment
Thanks, TZ, but I've never been one to buy anything refurbished or previously owned. It's just not my style. I could never forgive myself for spending $2200 on a refurbished item only to have the item fail me down the road. My mind would always kick my ass and blame any problems on purchasing "refurbished." If I had the brain power you clearly possess, then I might think differently.

I will say that MacGurus has provided me with some courage that I may just purchase a Mac Pro, as pared down as possible, and upgrade on my own.

Here's what I'm considering:

Processor: Two 3.0GHz Dual-Core Intel Xeon (add $719)

Memory: Bare minimum (1GB) and purchase and install additional 7GBs on my own.

Hard Drive-Bay 1: Assuming this is the boot drive, max it out at 750GB SATA (add $269) and fill Bay 2 on my own.

Graphics: ATI Radeon X1900 XT 512MB (2 x dual-link DVI) [add $224]

Wireless: Both Bluetooth 2.0+EDR and AirPort Extreme [add $71]

Theoretically, I could get this system for $3590 (minus my own upgrades). How does this sound?

TZ
04-18-2007, 11:08 AM
Apple Specials I feel safe with. Maybe even "safer" because they tend to do all the little things (like SoHo silent upgrade guy). Ideal would be 3GHz which is $3300-3900 (and the ref'd model comes with 2GB RAM and X1900).

Heat (and noise) The Radeon 9800 added mucho heat and noise to MDD. Today's drives run very cool and safe. So it is only air flow (in the front and pulled out back and/or top). Keep the dust out of the fans and vents and you should be fine.

A 300GB drive in the right front is safe, and one or two SATA drives over on the left side. would be my choice in drives.

For one or two SATA drives, you are probably safe with OWC. They do charge 15% on returns I think. And for $49 - if it works and is bootable or for scratch for now, give it a shot.

The Mac Pro is the easiest system to get inside and do your own upgrades. The FAQ has some photos and links to other sites with detailed shots etc.

I could never write something in plain English. But, Ted Landau has, (MacFixit, his 4th Edition on Repairs & Troubleshooting was THE book or bible for old OS 9 era) and he has a new one, plus CD and pdf format of all his tutorials and articles.). Check "Books" section. Missing Manuals by David Pogue are good starter books. I found "Everything you need to know" to actually be somewhat better for getting the hang of things. But none are geared to upgrading exactly.

The pdf that comes with SuperDuper (Backups) is excellent and walks you through creating a bootable clone backup, and how to restore. No two days, just two hours (or so). Worth the download and time to read. In same light, www.softraid.com is a good manual and guides on how to setup a RAID. Along with the Tech Guides on the left bar.

We have "hand held" people through the very same Q&A (Questions and Answers, not Quality Assurance! :D many times. Some of it was the basis for some threads that got moved to FAQ (I just looked at "How to Install a Drive" and it is not what I would expect a person would want, it takes a bit for granted on the HOW part I'm afraid). Some rather insanely long "discussions" that covered the gambit of video, cpu, RAM and disk drives, so just dealing with CS and drives shouldn't be much of a stretch. And there is always the "upgrade vs new" dilemma.

If you upgrade and find that you aren't satisfied enough, the drives should do you well. Which is why I would go for what gives the most performance for the buck, which is likely 10K Raptor and 500GB (or 320) drives. Two 500GB drives cost what one 10K 150GB Raptor will. WD price on both, though, retail from www.wdc.com is actually the same, $249.

With the MDD and your needs, the only buying part is drives, enclosures, and controller(s). I used SCSI (SATA was still too new) along with two FW800 controllers (and used in RAID of 120MB/sec) along with USB2 controller (printers, scanners, etc). In the end, the Mac Pro is/was about 300-400% faster and more efficient. Even when doing things like backing up a drive, where I can still work and before it would bring things to a stand-still. And do it much faster.

MistyBreeze
04-18-2007, 08:18 PM
"Apple Specials I feel safe with. Maybe even "safer" because they tend to do all the little things (like SoHo silent upgrade guy). Ideal would be 3GHz which is $3300-3900 (and the ref'd model comes with 2GB RAM and X1900)."
Good point. Of course, I had to go and look at the model you described and for a brief 40 seconds, I contemplated hitting the "buy" button. I really need to wait and explore improving what already pleases me.

"Heat (and noise) The Radeon 9800 added mucho heat and noise to MDD. Today's drives run very cool and safe. So it is only air flow (in the front and pulled out back and/or top). Keep the dust out of the fans and vents and you should be fine."
Also, good to know. I will take a closer look at the vents when I open the machine.

"For one or two SATA drives, you are probably safe with OWC. They do charge 15% on returns I think. And for $49 - if it works and is bootable or for scratch for now, give it a shot."
I may keep the Controller Card. They gave me a re-stocking fee of 5%, I think because I hadn't received it yet.

"The Mac Pro is the easiest system to get inside and do your own upgrades."
I appreicate the vote of confidence.

"I could never write something in plain English."
So far, I'm following you. I bet you would do just fine.

I know David Pogue (personally) but I would never let him know how little I know. I absolutely adore him.

I've never heard of Landau or MacFixit. I checked Landau's site and his most recent book is Ted Landau's Mac OS X Help Line, Tiger Edition. I checked the table of contents but didn't find anything as specific as "upgrading and replacing boot drive." I bought the book anyway because it looks like it's jam-packed with other useful info. Plus, after quick perusal of his site, I decided I like his writing style, too. Thank you for mentioning him. Couldn't find any CDs, though. Checked the tutorials but, again, couldn't find my jackpot. MacFixit looks interesting (new owners). I need to take some aspirin before I tinker over there.

"The pdf that comes with SuperDuper (Backups) is excellent and walks you through creating a bootable clone backup"
I went to versiontracker (the same owners as MacFixit) and downloaded SuperDuper. I was prepared to pay the $27 but it seems it downloaded free. Was I lucky or did I do something wrong? The pdf looks like it rocks. I may soon be unafraid to back up my entire system. Another thanks!

"I just looked at "How to Install a Drive" and it is not what I would expect a person would want"
I looked there, too, and stayed in there for quite some time. I eventually left with a another headache. Sifting through all the user-unique details on these forums is extremely time-consuming. I feel sorry for anyone who visits this thread. At least I know how to write, using English. :p

"If you upgrade and find that you aren't satisfied enough, the drives should do you well."
My assistant insists I should find some satisfaction. I'm willing to give it a try, especially knowing I can use the investment with a future Mac Pro purchase.

"In the end, the Mac Pro is/was about 300-400% faster and more efficient."
Well, there's always the possibility that a pot of extra gold will drop out of the sky and into my lap. This occasionally happens to us self-employed types. Clearly, if that happens, watch for my G4 on eBay. :)

yeungfeng
04-19-2007, 12:33 AM
Have you checked out the apple guides? See if this gives you the confidence to do it yourself.:)
http://www.info.apple.com/usen/cip/pdf/g4mdd/g4mdd-atadrive.pdf

TZ
04-19-2007, 07:41 AM
Mac OS X Troubleshooting: Be Your Own Mac OS X Troubleshooting Guru: The Basics MacFixIt published its first ever eBook, an introductory guide to the basics of troubleshooting Mac OS X. This 42-page guide is designed to introduce some techniques, routines and habits that have a pretty good track record for quashing the most common OS X problems.

"Be Your Own Mac OS X Troubleshooting Guru: The Basics" (http://www.macfixit.com/article.php?story=20061101123642475) available exclusively to MacFixIt Pro subscribers.

Optional: Please ship me VersionTracker Pro Mac/MacFixIt Pro Bundle software on CD (a nonrefundable $14.95 shipping and handling charge will be added to your order). A CD is NOT required--you will be able to download the VersionTracker Pro Mac/MacFixIt Pro Bundle software from this website immediately after you checkout.

PS: VersionTracker (and www.macupdate.com site) allow you to download updaters, and such, but you don't need to be MacFixit Pro subscriber, and any fees for shareware or to buy SuperDuper (etc) are between you and the merchant through their web site along with registration, serial number.

SuperDuper is in our FAQ a number of times, and people can use it for free to clone a drive. But in order to do smart-updates, you need to pay.

I figure anyone wanting to i"setup" a drive, knows how to find and read the Apple pdf manuals or read the guide that came with their system.

I hope that Apple's "Mac 101 Help" would expand into an online book, tutorial, and help link to and bring together more of the wealth and content there is in the tech notes, knowledge base, developer notes. They are some, such as "Troubleshooting Hardware and Software Issues."

When Leopard comes out, I hope Apple publishes a good "how to upgrade" - what I have seen on the web of screen shots of the new interface for Software Update looks more user friendly already.

MistyBreeze
04-19-2007, 10:07 AM
Holy smokes, yeungfeng, you can't imagine how many hours I've spent on Apple Support and never once came across that PDF. I must have used 20+ variations of "replace boot drive G4 MDD" in search. Apple Support is a maze of too many compartments. It's very difficult for an artist to stay focused over there. After punching in info.apple dot com, I was able to see where that baby was hidden. I'm very surprised in all the hard drive replacement "Discussions" threads I read, dating back to early '06, nobody seemed to mention this document or provide the PDF link.

Thank you. :dance:

That PDF is a good place to start. I'm suddenly feeling much closer to that 10K Raptor SATA as my boot drive. The next thing I need to find is a "Step-by-Step of What Comes Next" PDF. Assuming I used SuperDuper to clone my boot disk and the clone is stored on an external hard drive, what are the steps and stages that follow when I turn the G4 back on? Are there typical course of actions one should anticipate and expect?

TZ, I saw that MacFixIt Pro subscriber area and thought it might be fun to explore. Thanks for that article ref.

I clicked on "SuperDuper" from the MacFixit Utilities Library and it took me (to a link I can't seem to provide here). I saw the price of $27.95 and assumed by clicking "Download Now" it would take me to check-out. Instead, it downloaded with no payment and no checkout procedure. After download, I placed the icon in Apps, as directed, clicked on the App and it immediately opened with the user-instructions. I was never asked to register or to provide a serial number (maybe that comes later).

I did read the line on the versiontracker page that said, "And it's a free update for registered 1.x users!," so I assumed a snafu occurred and the system thought I was already a user. There's no info on that web page that explains what you just wrote, TZ. Some of these developers need a marketing consultant (it seems).

Since cloning my drive is my goal, I won't feel guilty about stiffing versiontracker. I have no problem sending them $30 when I begin doing smart-updates.

"I hope that Apple's "Mac 101 Help" would expand into an online book, tutorial, and help link to and bring together more of the wealth and content there is in the tech notes, knowledge base, developer notes. They are some, such as "Troubleshooting Hardware and Software Issues.""
It seems to me, there's a world of difference between a How-To Guide and a guide written for Troubleshooting. Troubleshooting assumes something has already gone wrong and needs to be fixed whereas a How-To should be written to prevent a need for Troubleshooting. There is an abundance of Troubleshooting advice out there, for sure, but if a How-To student, like me, needs to find answers, it seems I have to backtrack from someone else's disaster end point. This is a very time-consuming and confusing path to knowledge.

TZ
04-19-2007, 12:07 PM
Seems like one step forward.

Versiontracker Pro can tell you when something you ask or select, will notify you of updates.

SuperDuper and all downloads are not controlled. Some are "demo ware" or "Trial ware" and might have 15 or 30 days, or "cripple ware" that doesn't unlock all the features.

Now to get one of your drives where you can do some "walk through" practice backup runs and insure it works, and that the new image looks and acts and works just like the original. One reason for having more than one backup set.

Looks like Hitachi has a 1,000GB drive ($389?) that comes in behind Raptor, but ahead of all others - as well as will be quiet.

What I usually tell people is to click on "Manuals" from any Apple page (thin submenu bar) and go to PDF manuals. Do It Yourself use to be Customer Installable Parts (CIP)
http://www.apple.com/support/diy/

TZ
04-19-2007, 03:39 PM
Take a look at kaye's MDD Photoshop Test Results (http://www.macgurus.com/forums/showthread.php?t=19741) and setup to get an idea what to expect and an "ideal setup" for your G4. (He does have one of the rare G4 1.42DP cpus.)

yeungfeng
04-20-2007, 01:08 AM
Glad that helped! Don't know if you found this page, but you might want to bookmark it http://docs.info.apple.com/article.html?artnum=26259.

I'll try a how to, for you. Leave your drive in the computer. You would install your SATA PCI Card in the computer. This link is for replacing a SCSI PCI Card. http://www.info.apple.com/usen/cip/pdf/g4mdd/g4mdd-scsicard.pdf However, you won't replace anything just install the SATA PCI Card, pretend you took out a card:)

Go to http://www.info.apple.com/usen/cip/pdf/g4mdd/g4mdd-atadrive.pdf Page 3 and look at the picture. On the left of the pictured hard drive are two more spaces for adding hard drives. On the side you are on there is a small screw you take out and remove the flat metal piece. You will attatch the hard drive to that (FMP)flat metal piece. There are four hole on the FMP which will line up with the holes on the bottom of the hard drive ( which should come with four little screws ). Return the FMP with it's new hard drive into it's slot and screw it back on.

Next attach the SATA cable to and from the SATA PCI Card. The cable looks like this http://www.macgurus.com/productpages/sata/SATACables.php. (Scroll down to the first picture, that is the SATA cable. then scroll down to the next picture, which shows the SATA cable attached to the hard drive and the power cable.) There will be another cable with matching colored wires and the same type of connector close by (you'll see it) that is loose and will mate with the power cable from the drive that you will have already attached.

Close up the computer and plug in all you connections on the outside and start it up. You will need to initialize the new hard drive with Disk Utility (in applications, utilities folder). Go to Name and be sure to give the SATA drive a different name than the ATA Drive. Below that is format and you initialize with Mac OS Extended (journaled).

Use SuperDuper to copy your ATA drive/system/info/et.al. to you new SATA drive and you will have an exact copy. Test it by going to System Preferences ( in Applications) select Startup Disk and in the upper part of the window you will see the two systems. One on you ATA drive and one on the SATA drive.

That's how to do it. If I left anything out I'm sure someone will add a correction.

TZ
04-20-2007, 05:07 AM
FAQs and Help: (http://www.macgurus.com/forums/showthread.php?t=18533)

G4 MDD References and links
http://www.macgurus.com/forums/showthread.php?t=19016
(If I ever found a useful link, it would be there.)

My own G4 MDD Experience (http://www.macgurus.com/forums/showthread.php?t=9498) with what I went through and learned along the way.

MistyBreeze
04-20-2007, 11:27 AM
yeungfeng, I'm jumping for joy this morning and I haven't had my coffee yet. You are the bomb! (no terrorist pun intended)

Believe it or not, I'm considered in my circle to be an extremely resourceful workhorse. I did see artnum=26259 and I did bookmark it. However, that page could use some serious updating. The only items I may need are the hard drive instructions (and now the SCSI Replacement page) but, you never know, at some point I may need to install a few ice packs if the Raptor's legs are, indeed, as hot as mine. :p

"I'll try a how to, for you."
Thank you for this kind and generous attempt.

"Leave your drive in the computer."
I've read with interest that many people do leave their original boot drive alone and simply designate the newly installed drive as the new "startup." I tend to be a let's-clean-house-neat-freak so my plan included removing the original HD and never using it again. My concerns are its age, its speed, and mostly, unnecessary accumulation of heat.

Obviously, if I leave it in, my upgrade plan ends up with a cpu that houses three drives: the Raptor for startup, another SATA for Photoshop Scratch, and then the original boot drive (maybe for User Files?). Or, should I consider using the original boot drive as Photoshop Scratch and keeping it empty and not introducing a second internal SATA HD?

Three drives and the heat make me nervous (even though TZ claims not to worry). Even though my G4 still carries a Radeon 9000 Pro, I really don't know what the "silent" Apple tech did to fix my G4 high-fan mode. Given the newer drives are faster and more heat efficient, I just figure why not start with a clean slate. It sure seems like it would be easier to leave the original drive alone but I need a little more convincing on the best course of action with this.

"you won't replace anything just install the SATA PCI Card, pretend you took out a card"
The more I read, the less fear I have installing the PCI Card. My first film scanner, Minolta Dimage, required an installation of a SCSI Card on my G4 and I watched my tech guy install that (4-years ago). He was a smoker and his hands shook like crazy. That scanner is long gone but the SCSI Card remains installed (maybe I should remove it?). I have a pretty steady hand so I'm confident I can install the PCI Card with success.

"Next attach the SATA cable to and from the SATA PCI Card."
I looked at the SATA Cable page and is it safe to assume I need to purchase 270 degree cables for each drive I install? It appears the "L" end inserts into the drive and the "straight" end inserts into a connector on the PCI Card. Is this correct? Does each newly installed HD require a connection to the PCI Card? Will the two internal connection slots on the PCI Card suffice for a two HD upgrade? Is it safer/better to go with a different PCI Card than the OWC one I already purchased (it's waiting to be returned)?

The picture of the Barracuda shows a "SATA Power adapter." Do all G4 Compatible SATA hard drives come with this style of power connection or is this exclusive to Seagate? If other HD power connectors (G4 compatible) are different, are their connectors compatible with the power connections I should find inside my CPU?

"You will need to initialize the new hard drive with Disk Utility (in applications, utilities folder). Go to Name and be sure to give the SATA drive a different name than the ATA Drive. Below that is format and you initialize with Mac OS Extended (journaled)."
I just opened Disk Utility for the first time. Does "Name" and "Format" appear only when a new HD is added? I'm completely lost in the Disk Utility window so I posted 9 screen shots at http://www.flickr.com/photos/7911585@N04/ displaying my current setup. Any thoughts?

If I take out the original boot drive and replace it with the Raptor, will the Disk Utility window come up with an empty boot drive?

TZ, I came across your lengthy thread before I joined and posted. By page 4, I started to get a headache. Abbreviated techie-jibe is the hardest and most frustrating language for a non-techie like me to figure out. I accept that techies are in a world of their own and seem to prefer to keep outsiders out. I don't want a client trying to pretend to understand Photoshop so I'm sympathetic.

My favorite line from your thread is this:
"I never did like math problems where you have to read! (They didn't know I was near-sighted/dyslexic until later)"

I was OK at math until I was faced with a "word problem," when the floor below me would suddenly drop. Yes, nearsighted, too, and probably dyslexic, I was much better at art class. Luckily, I have learned how to force myself to think and stay focused but easy is not an adjective I would use to describe this effort.

Another TZ favorite:
"I'm sure some think my intensity is a problem (for them)"

And from Rebecca:
"Just remember that what can go wrong, probably won't, or then again, it may. Nothing you can do about it. As my mom used to say, "nobody's gonna die over it, right?""

If something does go seriously wrong in my effort to upgrade, I may just become a Mac Pro owner sooner rather than later. What the fukc, what's $5000 more debt? :jollyrog:

TZ
04-20-2007, 02:10 PM
I "dusted off" my MDD to update it to 10.4.9 and throw some security updates in. Trouble with going back to an older system with just one cpu (1.25/SP) because that was what there was at the time (Feb '04).

It needs faster drives as well. I just "detest" ATA drives on this system (which is why I used 15K SCSI).

Anyway.... would be interested if you have run Xbench and have some scores, would give an idea of where the system performance is over all - realizing also that the program is not very sophisticated (or accurate). You can get different scores and need to restart before running.

Score for MDD
http://db.xbench.com/merge.xhtml?doc1=56878

Download here:
http://www.xbench.com/Xbench_1.3.dmg

MDD Results (http://db.xbench.com/comparesubindex.xhtml?machineTypeID=6&sort=score&minVersion=1.3)

A score of 100 is based on G5 2.0DP I think and MDD average is 55. A Mac Pro is 155. So basically 300%.

Boyd 9
04-20-2007, 02:49 PM
MistyBreeze.....

I started out almost too scared to open up the case of my G4, and have now replaced everything except the motherboard and the Power Supply. If you have a fairly steady hand and can read instructions, I'm sure you can do it (having your cat jump up on the table where you're working is also a BIG help) :p

It is amazing to me how hard I've had to try, at times, to snap those PCI cards into place, but 'SNAP' they do, and knock on wood, haven't broken one yet (although always thought I would).

Don't forget the number one rule of fooling around inside your mac..... ALWAYS discharge static electricity first.... I usually make sure I touch a safe metal part of the Mac's case and then put my feet up on my chair so that I no longer touch the ground.

Take Control makes good little ebooks on Mac upgrades, wireless networking, the whole nine yards. Cheap too. Easy to read. Look at their site here:

http://www.takecontrolbooks.com/?@575.GPdbbRgEFAL@

I learned how to swap out drives by reading an article on xlr8 your mac; he notes the difference in Case design from the MDD vs. older models, but still, the pictures may help:

http://www.xlr8yourmac.com/IDE/add_2nd_drive/index.html

Just remember..... take your time on any upgrades..... Oh yeah, and do yourself a favor...... try not to do TOO MANY upgrades at once..... if something goes wrong, makes it WAY EASIER to pin-point what went wrong.

P.S.: SuperDuper is great... love it.... it REALLY WILL clone your current boot drive. I'd make sure your new drive is in place and settled in and cloned a few times before making it your boot drive..... when you do that, as you pointed out, your old boot drive can become a backup. BTW, I moved from a 5400rpm to a 7200rpm to a 10k raptor drive, and the diff in performance was almost as good as the CPU upgrade I did..... you'll love the raptor, I'm sure.......

TZ
04-20-2007, 04:08 PM
I meant to weigh in on that SCSI card. If it isn't being used, it is more trouble and is likely one of those Adaptec 2910 or 2930s often used for scanners or small/slow SCSI Zip drives or something. USB2 5-port card would probably make sense.

MistyBreeze
04-20-2007, 06:15 PM
I took the test and posted the results. I named it "MistyBreeze_g4"
Seems my total score is 60.63, whatever that means. Can't wait to hear your comments, TZ.

(edit) I seem to recall 2906 for the Adaptec SCSI. I was with Earthlink back then and all those emails are gone. Are you saying, TZ, to get rid of it and install a 5-port USB2? Great...one more thing to research.

MistyBreeze
04-20-2007, 07:28 PM
Is there a difference between WD Raptor X WD1500AHFD (Clear Cover) http://wdraptorpromo.wdc.com/en/products/Products.asp?DriveID=190
and WD Raptor WD1500ADFD http://wdraptorpromo.wdc.com/en/products/Products.asp?DriveID=189?

From what I read at WD's site, the Raptor X (Clear Cover) is the offspring of the original WD Raptor. I can't believe they confuse the consumer this way. Who cares what an internal HD looks like? Yet, if I'm gonna purchase on looks, then the Raptor X wins. (The Raptor X is more money on WD's site but not so elsewhere on the internet.)

yeungfeng
04-21-2007, 12:29 AM
I have left my ATA HD in my computer for those occasions where something goes wrong with my system. If that happens I can boot up the ATA drive and repair the SATA drive Operating System (OS). Much faster than booting from the DVD.

If TZ says not to worry, I wouldn't, at all, ever again for the rest of your life.;) Especially about the heat in your computer. He's the teacher and I the student. If you want to stay informed about the temp. inside your computer try this http://www.bresink.com/osx/TemperatureMonitor.html

SCSI PCI Card = goodbye, if you don't need take it out.


I looked at the SATA Cable page and is it safe to assume I need to purchase 270 degree cables for each drive I install? It appears the "L" end inserts into the drive and the "straight" end inserts into a connector on the PCI Card. Is this correct? Does each newly installed HD require a connection to the PCI Card? Will the two internal connection slots on the PCI Card suffice for a two HD upgrade? Is it safer/better to go with a different PCI Card than the OWC one I already purchased (it's waiting to be returned)?

#1 yes, #2 yes, #3 yes #4 yes #5 what brand is it? It's most likely OK, maybe someone who knows more about it that I, will comment about this. I bought a Firmtek from MacGurus, I like to give back when I recieve, and this site has given me much information. OWC should be selling a decient product.


Do all G4 Compatible SATA hard drives come with this style of power connection or is this exclusive to Seagate? All SATA hard drives come with this syle of power connections. The power supply wires in you MAC are called 4 pin molex. You will need an adaptor if your drive doesn't come with one.

yeungfeng
04-21-2007, 01:24 AM
I just opened Disk Utility for the first time. Does "Name" and "Format" appear only when a new HD is added? I'm completely lost in the Disk Utility window so I posted 9 screen shots at http://www.flickr.com/photos/7911585@N04/ displaying my current setup. Any thoughts?
YIKES! Oh that's a reaction, not a thought :D First off you want to be very cautious about Disk Utility (DU). You can use it to erase your hard drive. I did this once many years ago, by mistake. I thought I was repairing, but instead I erased my whole hard drive. Not a very pleasant experience. I had to rebuild the whole setup one floppy disk at a time.
If I take out the original boot drive and replace it with the Raptor, will the Disk Utility window come up with an empty boot drive? If you take out your ATA drive and put in the SATA drive you will have to install everything by way of your DVD drive, a very slow process compared to a copy with SuperDuper. Super Duper can do it in less than a hour. DVD could take much more time. The other thing is you most likely have information on your ATA HD that you would like to move to your SATA drive and how will that happen? Check out DU here http://docs.info.apple.com/article.html?artnum=301170

As far as the external FW drive, I would follow the previous suggestions about using another SATA drive and make the FW drive your just in case the computer catches fire backup drive. All the work you do on you computer = time spent. If you don't mind having to redo all that work don't worry about it. However if you'd rather not redo all the work back it up and have at least two backups, I have five copies and I rotate them so that if something gets goofed up I don't have to do too much to get it all back. I back up my most important stuff (like bookkeeping for business) daily. Corrupted files, failing hard drives, fires, floods ( I had one of those this last year), if the information is gone .......

I don't believe that there is any difference in the two Raptors. Except the clear window. I actually have a Raptor X but only because I saw this really great deal and just couldn't resist. The thing is when do you see the drive spin? It's in your computer. Plus the clear window is a vulnerability, you can't even touch it. WD says hands off or you could damage the drive.

One other thing. With the PCI card, handle it by the edges only and not on any area where it connects to the PCI slot in your computer. It's a general rule I follow. If you don't need to touch it, don't.

Good Luck!

TZ
04-21-2007, 08:58 AM
WD drives have both types of power connectors on them, so that makes life easier. Might want to check photos of the Raptor - in our SATA Drives FAQ or www.wdc.com and select Enterprise -> then Raptor and click on "more photos." very simple.

No problem leaving the old drive where it is until you feel comfortable removing it. Put the Raptor etc on the other side drive cage, which are easy to use.

The difference in older G4 systems with Raptor is "very noticeable." I use to have a pair of 10K SCSI drives in that drive cage and no problems with them.

FW400 is okay for backups and for your ATA drive if you want. FW800 ($49 PCI card) can offer another easy way to connect additional drives and very good performance, as fast if not faster than the native ATA you have now. And of course makes it easy to disconnect, or carry it elsewhere and connect to another Mac now or in the future.

It would be "fun" to have 3 Raptors for RAID, one for boot drive, and some 500GB drives for media and backup. Of course that is just 'wish list' dreaming but a good SCSI setup use to cost in the $1500-2500 range and this would run $1000-1500.

After spending a few hours yesterday with the MDD, the noise and "sluggish" response time, and today with Mac Pro (quiet, no sluggishness) is night and day. I even crank up the fan in my Mac Pro to 1000 rpm (yes, that is "crank up" and not "down." it is quiet quiet hum. And while I work, I am also doing a weekly backup of four drives that just... fly.

If you are working from your boot drive - and not from DVD or another drive (ext firewire) you can't 'harm' your boot drive. You can't erase or partition it. You can only "erase" free space.

Once you move your system onto a new drive, nice to disconnect it and know it is there if needed - and put it in FW case as your original and for emergencies only (to boot from to repair other drives and run things like Disk Warrior on your new boot drive on a weekly basis).

MistyBreeze
04-21-2007, 10:39 AM
I bought the WD Raptor WD1500ADFD. Both Raptors were the same price with a $30 rebate and even though I liked the look of the Raptor X, if you can't watch it spin and the Clear Cover is a vulnerability, who needs this marketing bullshit? The total came to a very affordable $179, no shipping, no tax.

Even though the $50 OWC SATA Card came with 2 external ports and 2 internal ports, only 2 could be used at the same time. Looking to the future, it made more sense to go with a more generous option so I decided to get the Firmtek Seritek/1VE2+2. Not only does it give me more options, it looks like a better made PCI Card. Hopefully, it will "snap in" without much difficulty. Since I believe in supporting those who help me, I bought the Seritek at MacGurus.

RE: Disk Utility
I never "play" in unfamiliar territories. Typically, I read directions first before I touch anything, unlike the MO of most of my younger assistants. After I opened DU, I saw that each HD icon offered its own info so I took an easy screen shot of each icon, thinking this info might be helpful to those who are helping me. I got out of DU without changing anything or causing any trouble. Scaring me to death is good way to keep things in check.

kaye
04-22-2007, 09:38 AM
MistyBreeze,

I have an Xbench comparison to my GigaMDD here http://db.xbench.com/merge.xhtml?doc2=223945

Faster and larger capacity boot HD would certainly help. Your Macintosh HD is an IBM Deskstar 120GXP 120GB before initializing, 7200RPM with 2MB cache. Your WD Raptor WD1500ADFD would make an excellent choice for scratch. Myself, I would get a modern drive for boot and use your 120GXP for a backup boot HD. k

TZ
04-22-2007, 12:31 PM
At $179 for 150GB Raptor? Did they have a limit on the number you can buy? that is an unbelievable price. I paid that for 74GB model.

A 320GB drive for data - doesn't even need to be SATA.
But 10K Raptor boot drive and another for scratch would be sweet! :kickass:

A new 8-core Mac Pro had this to say. He was using G4 500DP:

Tiger runs awesome of course. I transcoded a movie from DVD-9 format to DVD-5 format to see how the octo would perform. Normally this took about an hour on my G4. The 8 core Mac Pro chewed thru in in less than two minutes.

All in all, I'm very pleased thus far. I'm liking this new toy a lot. I think it might be worth it ... I copy that on the Ferrari David!

kaye
04-22-2007, 03:14 PM
Limit 2. Mail in rebate $30 per drive. k

MistyBreeze
04-23-2007, 09:28 PM
OK, so I've started reading the 60-page SuperDuper PDF and, on Page 5, I read that an external "bootable" Fire Wire HD is "highly recommended" for storing the clone. Even though they supply instructions on partitioning, they strongly recommend using a single drive exclusively for bootable clones. I have no desire to partition so it looks like I need to buy another external HD for SuperDuper use. Does the buying ever end?

Repeating myself: my internal boot drive, which houses the OS and software only, currently uses 66GBs of a 120 capacity. My HD2, which holds all User Files (no archive), currently uses 50 GB of a 95GB partition. If my need/desire is to clone both, I need at least 120GBs to play it safe. Given that my User Files and Apps may slowly continue to grow, I guess one can never have enough space. But when is enough enough? In order to appease the sweet wishes of Super Duper, what the hell size should I get?

Since LaCie was one of the recommended (tested) brands (and that's all I've ever owned), I was thinking the LaCie d2 Hard Drive Extreme w/FW 400 and FW 800. I have a feeling I will be installing a FW 800 card in my G4 (soon), along with the SATA and I was thinking 160GBs (for another $125 investment). Is that enough?

I was also looking at the LaCie d2 Quadra Hard Drive, which has an eSATA connection, as well as FW 400 + 800. Would my Seritek/1VE2+2 permit me to connect the external Quadra? The lowest Quadra volume offered is 320GB. I can't imagine ever needing so much room for OS/User Files and I don't like the idea of having gobs of unused storage wasted on Super Duper. Am I over-thinking this? :eek:

ricks
04-23-2007, 11:10 PM
LaCie is like a bad case of typhoid around here. We don't carry LaCie drives because they are manufactured by the lowest cost bidder, have no cooling and insufficient power supplies. Too many of our customers call us when they fail their second or third one. I have actually had people fail three all at once. I can't recommend a manufacturer who has a very high number of acceptable failures.

I have never used SuperDuper, so I can't comment on that. Why I haven't been posting. Can't comment on whether you need FW externals, maybe, but there sure are a lot of great Firewire products that can keep a drive cool and well powered, the minimum duty an enclosure must do.

Rick

yeungfeng
04-23-2007, 11:27 PM
YES! :D

Plan 1. You have your Raptor for your everyday OS & applications, you have your ATA drive as an internal backup for your system. If you get one more SATA drive you can use that to store your work, even partitioned so part is a scratch area. Plus you have two FW drives to backup to, i.e. your LaCie 120 could backup work, the 300GB drive you could partitions into two partitions one for the System and Applications, the other to backup your work.

Plan 2 Spend nothing more. Copy everything from your 300 GB LaCie to the new Raptor, erase the 120GB removing all partitions. copy everything form the Raptor to the 120GB LaCie. (2 copies of the 300GB drive) Erase the 300 GB drive and make one partition 120 GB and the other 180 GB. Use SuperDuper to make copy of ATA drive on the 120 GB partition. Boot from this drive to check that it works. Copy all your work from the Raptor to the 180 GB partition. (still have at least 2 copies of your work) Erase Raptor and SuperDuper the ATA drive to the Raptor. Startup on Raptor and make sure it works. Erase the ATA drive make scratch partiton 20 GB and your work storage 100 GB.

Now you have 2 System disks, Raptor and FW.
Plus you have 3 copies of your work. ATA, FW1 & FW2

I like the Plan 1 because you will have more speed with the SATA combination and you have three of everything. A system on the ATA for repairs of the Raptors Tiger, if it should ( and they do ) need it sometimes, and that will be faster than the FW drives.

As far as the LaCie drives are concerned, I get the inpression that some folks around here don't like them. A bit cheaply made, I hear. That said I have had good luck with them for many years. However I just use mine for backup and not everyday use. I like the 2 SATAs and it's native ATA in my old DA. All are partitioned and SuperDuper has copied all my System/Applications to each one of them.

The great part for you is you have that Seritek/1VE2+2. Down the road you could use one or two of these for your backup http://www.macgurus.com/productpages/sata/BurlyHotswap.php and all with the speed of SATA.

Zoom, Zoom, Zoom ( a great little scrabble word )

unclemac
04-24-2007, 01:01 AM
Rick has high standards for hardware. He acts like data is really important, like it is not easily replacable. Oh wait......it usually is the single most important thing to most people. Why they have a computer in the first place. So yes, he likes robust gear, as do the rest of us.

I am sure LaCie is adequate gear most of the time for most people. I imagine most of their gear works just fine. Problem is, they have had several lemons that have cause alot of people grief in the last few years. My take is that they, like most modern consumer products are engineered to the bare minimum. Saves cost, space, weight, and money. The downside to that way of thinking is that there is no room for error. What about an unusually warm work space, a drive that runs a bit hot, too many dust bunnies, etc.......what about the engineers being too optimistic about cooling ability, the condition and exact voltage of incoming AC?

Engineering too close to minimum specs, or to put it another way - not robustly - just does not leave a safety margin for your drive and data. LaCie seems to be guilty of that way of thinking and engineering, at least with some case designs, as do most modern manufacturning firms. Not unique, but they are one of the biggest external drive case sellers, so one of the most visible to sell less than robust cases.

So yes, you will find many happy LaCie customers. But from our point of view, we have seen to many unhappy ones to recommend their gear as a general rule. Safety first, right?

As for Super Duper, don't over think it. I have never read the manual, used it many times. Make sure your destination partition is a little bigger than your source, push the go button, and go to bed. See if you have a bootable system clone in the morning. :)

Just like my grandma used to say.......a watched OS never clones. Or something like that.

MistyBreeze
04-24-2007, 07:54 AM
"LaCie is like a bad case of typhoid around here."
Sort of like the Apple Cinema Display in my world. I get the grunt.

When I first started in Photoshop, LaCie was the Apple of hard drives. Every NYC photographer I knew used one and it was the only brand that the tech-snobs at ICP(.org) were recommending. Then, several years later, a very famous photographer endured the death of one of his LaCie externals and word spread like wildfire. The next thing you hear, LaCie out Seagate in.

I own three LaCie drives, 2 rack-mount desktop and one 80 GB Rugged Pocket Drive (I bought for Photoshop classes). All three are Fire Wire and have the "feel" of extreme high-quality and continue to perform as expected. Jeff Schewe is seen in his Lightroom Tutorial using his Rugged All-Terrain LaCie. As far as I'm concerned, if LaCie is good enough for Schewe, it's good enough for me.

That said, I have sincere appreciation for contrary opinion. Who doesn't want to pay affordable prices for perfection. So, MacGuru members, lead the way.

"As for Super Duper, don't over think it. I have never read the manual, used it many times."
Hot damn!

When I worked in corporate (ages ago), writing manuals was an important part of my art direction responsibility. I have great respect for writers who create manuals. I also pay attention to Manual writing placed in Bold and, like I said, I read instructions first and then play. Of the four brands that Super Duper mentions, LaCie happened to be the most familiar. I'm not married to any brand and as long as I choose a Mac-compatible startup drive, I should be fine.

OK, so I'm over-thinking everything. Let's not forget, I'm a commercial artist. Thank you for your patience and kind indulgence. Please hang in there and don't give up on me yet. I'm determined to move forward, making smart left-brain decisions along the way. Yeungfeng's detailed plans (thank you) don't take into account that, for safety sake, I need to backup my OS/Apps "before" I open the cpu and install the Raptor. I'm determined to clone my system and test it before I make any internal changes.

Once the Raptor and PCI Card are installed and working well, my plan was to transfer the User-File-contents of my oldest LaCie (HD2) to a new SATA external, remove the LaCie's 2 partitions, and use the 120GB LaCie for location shoot backups until it dies. My (newer) 300GB LaCie houses RAW archive. I do not feel comfortable partitioning and/or booting from a photo archive HD (which has only 100GBs left). I'd rather spend more money, bitch about it, and create a setup that makes forward-thinking safety-sense to me.

When I eventually have my 2-SATA Burly or 2-Bay SATA Hot-Swap Enclosure set up, I plan to transfer the photo-archive contents of the 300GB LaCie to SATA drives and hold the 300-LaCie as replacement for the 120, to be used for location shoots.

With ever-changing technology and the costs of digital photography, I can't afford to under-think anything. I just paid over four digits yesterday to remain insured for another year. The cost of working in digital is killing me.

unclemac
04-24-2007, 11:54 AM
Not opposed to reading manuals, didn't mean to imply that. All for it. Just wanted to point out that SuperDuper is easy, and it just works for making clones.

It does lots of other more compliacted things too, and does them well......for those things I would strongly recommend RTFM. It's default settings are to make a bootable clone to a partition or a FW drive, so it is easy. Go for it.

Sometimes you (or at least I) learn fastest by doing. I think this is one of those times.

I say use the LaCie gear. You paid for it, its working, it may always work fine. I would add that I would never keep my life's work only one hard drive.....LaCie or other wise, so when the bugdet allows be sure you always have mutliple copies of your most important data. I would use a LaCie (or other consumer grade of FW box) to make clones of systems. As painfull as it might be, you can always reinstall an OS and apps, right? It can be replaced or rebuilt. That would be a good use of your less robust hardware IMHO.

MistyBreeze
04-24-2007, 12:59 PM
"Not opposed to reading manuals, didn't mean to imply that. Sometimes you (or at least I) learn fastest by doing."
I didn't mean to sound chastising or uppity but the whole "read the manual" thing is sort of an inside joke in my studio. I've been known to fire assistants who use (and break) my equipment without reading the instructions first. There's this one very memorable time when a new assistant opened the "new" collapsable equipment dolly incorrectly and broke the $150 mechanism. The dolly was so new the credit card statement hadn't arrived yet. The "Do Not Open First" instructions were glaring, on a yellow and black sticker near his hand, and, of course, the assistant was too blind to see what was right before his eyes. When I asked him how he could manage NOT reading the instructions in BOLD first, he replied, "I learn by doing." NOT in my studio. He lasted half a day.

"Make sure your destination partition is a little bigger than your source, push the go button, and go to bed."
I took your advice, thank you, and I accidentally found a deal through an old posting at XLR8YourMac. http://eshop.macsales.com/Specials/XLR8YourMac.cfm
I bought the 300GB OWC Mercury Elite-AL Pro Quad Interface 7200RPM for $178, including shipping. I'll use this to store my clone until my Burly is set up. At least I know I shouldn't have any problems booting from this if I ever have to.

This purchase replaces the external Seagate I recently returned. I guess one can never have enough storage so, for now, all is good.

Thanks, everyone.

unclemac
04-24-2007, 01:48 PM
.....well, he did learn by doing......just something other than what he expected to learn: RTFM :rolleyes:

Nothing to break with SD.......worst thing that can happen is a failed, non-working clone. And wasted time.

yeungfeng
04-24-2007, 10:38 PM
Yeungfeng's detailed plans (thank you) don't take into account that, for safety sake, I need to backup my OS/Apps "before" I open the cpu and install the Raptor. I'm determined to clone my system and test it before I make any internal changes.

You don't have a backup plan?:eek: I don't think I woud have even considered that you wouldn't have a backup plan. I have lost "everything" once and now I have three copies of "everything". Recently I lost almost "everything", and I did have a backup of the essential work that I had done. One just does not loose 10 years of business bookkeeping. OS and Applications can be hand loaded, it just takes time.

Backup your ATA drive (though I don't think I would worry about it) to your 80GB Rugged Pocket Drive. Then you can install the Raptor in your Cpu (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cpu (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cpu))

I have to agree with unclemac, I've never read the manual for SuperDuper. Most simple Mac programs are pretty intuitive, kinda like Macs.

Sounds like your well on your way, good luck!

MistyBreeze
04-25-2007, 03:52 AM
"You don't have a backup plan?"
Considering I've been shooting pro-digital for barely one year, I think I'm doing better than most photographers I know. At least I backup my RAW image files, one copy on HD and one on CD/DVD. My plan is to eventually eliminate CD/DVD burning and rely on 2 HD locations for each image.

"I don't think I would have even considered that you wouldn't have a backup plan."
I'm creating a more comprehensive one NOW. The growth process takes time and I'm trying my best to stay young, pretty and stupid. I don't dye my hair blonde for nothing.

"I have lost "everything" once"
I think it's easy not to take backup seriously until you lose something precious. All my precious files are backed-up in two locations. No one in my circle has lost "everything."

"One just does not lose 10 years of business bookkeeping."
Oh, yes, business bookkeeping. I don't rely much on the computer for that. That's the accountant's responsibility. I don't want anything to do with accounting software. What little prep-work I do ends up hard copied and filed in a filing cabinet. There's a modest paper trail in a storage space for equipment. Some things won't change with technology. I still prefer my land line.

"OS and Applications can be hand loaded, it just takes time."
I am aware of this and I prefer to avoid it. That time is worth an extra $200 HD to me.

"I've never read the manual for SuperDuper."
You're fired! :D

TZ
04-26-2007, 07:51 AM
Thought this bit of news was interesting:

Apple's third Manhattan flagship to open in Meatpacking district

After two false starts, Apple said Wednesday it will finally open its third Manhattan retail store by year's end, this time on the lower west side in the city's Meatpacking District.

I've been trying to help someone with disk drive troubles on G5 - and no idea what or how to backup so they can begin to repair and restore their system. Trouble is, it is all too common.

I rather liked how Vista seems to make it easy to setup 'restore points' and backups of data and 'snapshot' image. Even allowing you to undo any filesystem change to previous point, or version of an application too.

Another, that when you boot from DVD, you have the choices of testing memory, file system, whether you want to boot in safe mode or repair/restore. Things I assume now that Leopard will try to incorporate.

Trying to explain to someone that they could try booting in Safe Mode or something is so foreign and requires more than its share of hand-holding explanations and links.

And I have never found THE book or FAQ or article that quite fits the bill of walking someone through a "decision tree" to diagnose their system. TechTool Pro tries. Their original "MacEKG" was cute, colorful, attempt at a hardware diagnostic tool.

Backing up a system or drives with SuperDuper is just a matter of wanting to and putting a plan and some drives in place. Speaking of which, the popular Maxtor MaxLine III (300GB 16MB cache) drive is back in stock and selling for about $75! I wanted four, but then I'd need to spend another $$$ on drive cabinet and controller. :D

MistyBreeze
04-26-2007, 09:55 AM
"Apple's third Manhattan flagship to open in Meatpacking district"
This seems like an odd decision. Apple Soho is about a mile away from the Meatpacking District. However, with the smell of dead cow carcasses relocating outside of Manhattan and the proliferation of new luxury high-rise buildings that attract those hedge-fund new-boomer families (who wear Apple like it's a Prada), maybe this decision isn't so odd after all.

"I rather liked how Vista seems to make it easy..."
My studio is cross-platform but we only use the PC for MS Office and to see what my images and web designs look like on PC/IE. We did not upgrade to Vista and I doubt we will. I'm glad Leopard is delayed. My upgrade plate is full right now.

"And I have never found THE book or FAQ or article that quite fits the bill of walking someone through a "decision tree" to diagnose their system."
There really is an abundance of information out there and it's much too scattered, unfocused, and incomplete for my liking. No wonder those Upper East Side, french-manicured babes are so eager to shell out $120 an hour to have some geek-love fantasy-man hang around her apartment for a few hours, pretending to work on her equipment.

Too many of the discussion boards, ostensibly there to help newbie do-it-yourself'ers, dissolve into gorilla-techie, chest-beating elitist-abreviation posturing. Techie-talk reminds me of that new T Mobile commercial where the mother is scolding her young daughter and the daughter responds by speaking in abbreviated text-ing language. I am that girl's mother.

It's hard enough to grasp the technical nuances of this expensive upgrade process but having to endure lazy tech writers, who think writing in abbreviated tech terms is somehow helpful to a DIY newbie, is beyond me. The bottom line is, either you want to HELP or you want to FLAUNT.

"Backing up a system or drives with SuperDuper is just a matter of wanting to and putting a plan and some drives in place."
I agree and that's what I did. Looking forward, I doubt that any 300GB, quad-connection, external HD will ever go to waste. In the meantime, Super Duper should be happy I gave it its own home.

MistyBreeze
04-26-2007, 10:39 AM
My Raptor arrived and all I got was a hard drive in a sealed manufacturer's plastic bag, wrapped in bubble-wrap. No pretty box. No instructions. No cables. Not even a warranty card. Fine. Who needs that extra shit? It looks like WD's data cord was useless to me anyway. At least I didn't have to pay more for throw-aways.

I'm still trying to get crystal clear on the connection/cable issues.

My plan is to install the Raptor in the 2nd Drive Carrier, the one beneath the CD/DVD drives. Yeungfeng has already made clear that the "L"-shaped, 7 pin data End fits into the drive while the straight End fits into my Seritek Card. This 270 Degree cable comes in three sizes. I'm assuming the 12-inch is all I need for inside my Mac. Do I let it just hang there or secure it in some specific manner?

Since the Raptor doesn't require a power adaptor, I'm assuming one of the two power clip-ends (white) that I will find tucked under my CD/DVD drives will fit directly into the 4-Pin Power port on the Raptor? I'm also assuming that my cpu's IDE Controller Cables, secured by a clip, will remain secured and have no use in this specific application. I also believe the Raptor is Master by default and no jumper configuration is necessary.

Am I crystal clear yet?

unclemac
04-26-2007, 10:40 AM
There really is an abundance of information out there and it's much too scattered, unfocused, and incomplete for my liking. No wonder those Upper East Side, french-manicured babes are so eager to shell out $120 an hour to have some geek-love fantasy-man hang around her apartment for a few hours, pretending to work on her equipment.

Packing the bags....New York, here I come! :D

And I really will work on their equipment. Ah......no, that doesn't sound quite right. Their computer equipment.

On a more serious note, you are 100% correct about the Flaunt vs. Help point. I can't stand most tech forums, and I work in an IT department.

unclemac
04-26-2007, 10:42 AM
Yes, crystal clear. Go for it.

TZ
04-26-2007, 11:11 AM
Those low cost, white box, OEM drives with rebate, and they want you to just plug and play? horrors! ;-)

And if you were to see how confusing WD's web site is "documenting" what and when a little jumper on the drive means "yes" or "no" (enable/disable), well, it makes my head spin!!

When you pull the drive cage out, there will be a power connector for two drives. There is a screw holding the cage in place that may not be obvious without looking down inside. And there should be screws in the cage for two drives already there.

Is 12" now? I thought it was 18". I prefer to tape or just tuck it out of the way.

Not sure whether I should try to anticipate or wait for what might or might not happen (worst case scenario stuff). I assume the old SCSI card is now long gone.

You will get a message on screen to "ignore, eject, initialize." rest assured, clicking will only cause Disk Utility to launch. Nothing more or less. And then you can play and experiment even with partitioning or erasing the drive.

At that point, I like to throw some files to the drive and "kick the tire" at first. You will know it is there and hear it "chatter" when working and seeking.

The Raptor is the most reliable drive I have come across - bar none.

MistyBreeze
04-28-2007, 10:56 AM
In preparation of cloning with Super Duper, I ran CalmXav due to a suspect virus on my MS Office Word docs. Sure enough, many of my Word docs are infected with the W97M.THUS.A virus. I have numerous Word Docs spread across three hard drives and attached to numerous emails. Is there an easy fix to eliminate all the infected files? I don't think it's wise to clone my HDs as long as I have infected files plus folks with Yahoo email accounts can no longer open a Word doc sent by me. What's the best way to clean up this problem before I upgrade?

kaye
04-28-2007, 11:27 AM
Did a search and found this:
http://www.macworld.com/2005/02/reviews/antivirussoftware/index.php
Somewhat dated so I went to the Intego page:
http://www.intego.com/virusbarrier/?s=50&gclid=CJz-ltr25YsCFRROhgodNyTyPQ

They have a 30-day free trial linked on that page (top, right). I don't have anti-virus software so I cannot recommend any. Maybe others will chime in. I will run the free trial however. k

TZ
04-28-2007, 11:35 AM
Remove the attachments. Move them aside.

As long as you don't send those files as they are; they don't affect or infect OS X itself.

Doesn't ClamXav offer to sanitize or remove, or 'sandbox' these files?

"if you're a wise person and you've turned MS Office's macro support off then you're not going to notice that virus which is hiding inside this month's edition of Extreme Ironing.doc which your friend sent you. If you then forward that document to a less wise person who has not turned off the macro support, then you have most likely just sent him a shiny new Pandora's Box with a sign saying "Open this end"!"
http://www.clamxav.com/index.php?page=dl

ClamXav Sentry
http://www.markallan.co.uk/clamXav/index.php?page=sentry

Script to scan email (http://www.markallan.co.uk/BB/viewtopic.php?t=889)

MistyBreeze
04-28-2007, 07:14 PM
I found this from the owner of ClamXav:

"ClamXav is unable to remove viruses or clean files. All it can do is tell you that a file is infected. If you want to clean a particular document, really the only thing you can do is drag it into TextEdit (or Pages, I believe) and copy the contents in to a new Word/Pages/TextEdit document.

If it's saying all your files are infected, it's likely that MS Word's "Normal" file has been infected and it's copying itself into all your documents. In that case, the best course of action is to delete the "Normal" file."

OK, so I clicked "on" Macro virus protection in Word>Preferences>General and clicked OK. I also found the Normal file in Application>MS Office>Templates and I trashed it. After sending two email tests from two different accounts, the virus is no longer attaching itself to my new Docs. Hooray!

I've copied all Word Docs from one drive to a duped version of my folder-tree structure on my desktop, to keep track. Then I ran ClamXav on the dupes and it found 90+ files infected. It seems I picked the virus up in Jan 2006.

Since I don't know how to fix this issue fast, I'm in the copy/paste process of each infected doc. There goes my weekend sex life. :mad:

unclemac
04-28-2007, 10:09 PM
Have not tried this demo myself, but besides the standard comsumer stuff, there is also Sophos. They make a nice product, but not for consumers. Businesss only. They do have this 30 day demo, and last I heard it is fully functional. You do have to fill out a form to get the demo, but I would give it a shot:

http://sophos.com/products/small-business/sophos-anti-virus/eval

Oh, we use Sophos at work on 300 plus machines (macs and PCs both) and have been happy with it.

Might salvage Sunday's activities anyway.......;)

kaye
04-29-2007, 09:18 AM
I ran the VirusBarrier free trial. They email the download link to it as well as an offer to take $5 off within 10 days I think it was. I took screenshots and dumbed them down somewhat for the web. At start:
http://homepage.mac.com/kaye_yum/.Public/VB_X4start.gif

After completion:
http://homepage.mac.com/kaye_yum/.Public/VB_X4end.gif

I only checked my primary boot drive. It checked over 1 million files. That corrupted file is a Halo file which even the Halo CD is shown as corrupted and DW4 also shows as corrupted. I have been ignoring that. Halo runs just fine altho I do need to upgrade Halo. Why it checked that file twice I don't know.

I have run the uninstaller because I don't need it as evidenced by the result. k

MistyBreeze
04-29-2007, 02:00 PM
VirusBarrier X4 is :kickass:

Thank you, kaye! If my G4 upgrade goes as smooth as VirusBarrier, I'll be dancing naked in the streets of Manhattan.

What a fabulous piece of software. I had Systemworks installed when I bought my G4 but one of my assistants just told me you have to keep on top of updates. I forgot and, unknowingly, let Systemworks expire. Who knows how long I have been without virus protection.

VirusBarrier has auto-update so it'll be harder to forget. My G4 is all clean and whistling dixie. :dance:

kaye
04-30-2007, 07:38 AM
Glad it's working so well for you. I would have purchased if it had found any infected files. k

TZ
05-06-2007, 09:03 AM
Here's a tip: avoid ClamXav

ClamXav sentry caused me problems with SD memory cards if I set to scan mounted disk images and volumes.

My system would be unresponsive. ClamXav would use 90% cpu. Camera photos would not download at all and would be corrupt.

Seems like a "real piece of work" to me (junk) not to be trusted. At least what I saw. In the past I used it just to scan email (fine) but last year letting it scan home folder or "Pictures" would result in real slow down and problems (worried adding a photo would contain a hidden security risk).

So one program that can interfere. And didn't realize it was basically unable to remove an infected file (quarantine and delete only).

But then, I see comments from users about Intego also. I used NetBarrier back in OS 9, more as a 'gimmick' toy.

Nicolas
05-06-2007, 11:24 AM
Yep, Clam is nice at the first look but, if you take a 2nd look it's cr**.

If u install Avast http://www.avast.com/ on ur PC you will be fine on the Windows side too. They are offering a free virus cleaner!

I had the Intego suit back in 2004 and it was junk well maybe they made it better in the newer versions.

Regards

Nicolas

MistyBreeze
05-06-2007, 03:51 PM
Before I purchased, I found a May 2006 review in Macworld for Intego’s VirusBarrier X4:
http://www.macworld.com/2006/05/reviews/virusbarrierx4/index.php

Rob Griffiths awarded it 4.5 mice and the 18 reader-posts made for encouraging reading. I'm back to using Word docs and, so far, no sign of any macro viruses. I couldn't be more pleased.

I trashed Clam when I realized it didn't clean. It also missed quite a few infected files.

TZ
05-07-2007, 07:02 AM
MacWorld has a reputation for being easy (soft?) on their advertisers and might go a little out of their way to be nice. Try for most any print magazine or someone depending on ad dollars. Plus, if you are reviewing pre-release software, you cut some slack figuring it is rough around the edges and will be fixed before release or with an update or two.

The editor from MacWorld just moved over to PCWorld and someone there left because of what appears to be "pressure" to write more "positive" reviews.

Not to say VB isn't fine, Symantec has resources but also gets a lot of criticism for its product.

I am appalled though with ClamXav - if I even suggest something, I also feel I have to go back and give it a shot or try it again, and every time I do, run into problems with its performance (and why I have to be fanatical about backups). :(

kaye
05-07-2007, 07:57 AM
Misty, I have been wanting to mention something but decided to wait until your virus problem was solved.

http://www.macworld.com/2006/03/features/speedtoptips/index.php is a good article (more than one page) but the tip that caught my eye was the Reduce desktop clutter. Particularly handy when 2GB RAM is your max tho I use the tip on my G5 as well. Both my G4 and G5, one desktop folder. Particularly handy when running Photoshop or Boots' Pshop Test. So I have 3 icons, 2 drives/volumes and the folder, and no open windows, for instance launch Photoshop from the dock. Plus set the dock to hide after launch instead of always visible.

If your scratch is a RAID, you can reduce desktop icons for Photoshop further. In the Finder select Preferences, uncheck Hard disks. Your scratch RAID volume and that folder will be the only items left on your desktop. That Finder setting survives a reboot and a shutdown startup. And you can re-check it at any time.

How much RAM does it save? I estimated that each icon or open window at about 20-25KB. It can get substantial if you have a lot of icons or windows on your desktop eating into your RAM. Will reduce those spinning beachballs. k

MistyBreeze
05-07-2007, 10:11 AM
"The editor from MacWorld just moved over to PCWorld and someone there left because of what appears to be "pressure" to write more "positive" reviews."

The numbers are much greater in the PC world so competition is stiffer. CNET is infamous for taking product placement money and look at the millions of people who rely on them for product reviews.

"MacWorld has a reputation for being easy (soft?) on their advertisers and might go a little out of their way to be nice."

Nice and easy, to me, means 4 mice instead of 3.5. Macworld is not famous for handing out 4.5 mice in generous quantities, which is why Griffith's review clinched the sale. Also, I'm not familiar with regular Intego/VirusBarrier ads and I've been a Macworld subscriber for four years. Frankly, until kaye's helpful post, I had never heard of the product or the manufacturer before.

RE: desktop clutter

I'm not a certifiable Type A but I'm not a fan of messy and cluttered, either. I work on a two-screen setup and the desktop icons have accumulated to the second screen at times, much to my horror and dismay. It just depends on how busy the schedule gets. Typically, I clear the desktop of all but one row of icons before I run Disk Warrior, and I try my best to keep the cleanup under control, thereafter, for as long as I can. With kaye's recent post, I'll probably do better. Thanks.

TZ
05-07-2007, 11:03 AM
I should just let you read what www.MacNN.com and www.AppleInsider.com were reporting last week... more about SJ asking for a favor or put in a good word.

All my original and favorite Mac magazines are no more, MACazine and MacUser.

MistyBreeze
05-07-2007, 11:36 AM
From the MacNN article:

"Apparently Crawford also told editors that product reviews in the magazine were too critical of vendors, especially ones who advertise in the magazine, and that they had to start being nicer to advertisers," Wired wrote in its blog.

Crawford, who is a longtime friend of Jobs, was the former CEO of MacWorld and only started at PC World about a month ago, but the changes maybe pushing the already-blurring lines of advertising and editorial."

I hate to sound cynical but the for-profit magazine business is ruthless and it's very difficult to trust publications who make money criticizing the same vendors who support ad dollars. It's almost impossible to control conflict-of-interest issues in this narrow-market business model. Ideally, publications designed to be critical should remain free of advertising and they should charge a premium for subscriptions. But they'd need to charge a lot because good tech writing and quality testing/evaluations cost serious money.

Thank goodness for the internet and forums like this one. The proof of any pudding is in user-experience and user-satisfaction. All one needs is time to read. :mad:

kaye
05-16-2007, 08:40 AM
Another reason or tip on keeping the desktop uncluttered:
http://www.macfixit.com/article.php?story=2007051510154393

I had never logged out and logged back in while in the Finder. Did so and it at least worked just fine. Speedier, can't say. k