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ftonelli
01-06-2007, 10:42 AM
Hi Gurus,

I have just purchased my first MacGiru 4Bays Burly and am in LOVE with it!

I also set up my first RAID 0 and did some experimenting with PshopTest2.

My normal set up is:

G4 Dual 1.25Ghz - 1.5GB RAM
Start up OS x 10.4.8 on Internal SATA WD Raptor 10,000 74GB
Users and Work disk on Internal SATA Hitachi 7,200 250GB
Photoshop CS2

I set up my new Burly with two WD Raptors 10,000 150GB on RAID 0 as CS2 scratch disk and gained the best speed result with a 384MB file located in my single SATA Hitachi 250Gb Users drive.

Then I tried adding a 2 x 500GB Hitachi RAID 0 and used it as a work disk to contain the 384MB file, but to my disappointment did not gain any faster result than above.

Can anyone recommend a way to improve things further (beside buying a Mac Pro with 16GB or RAM)?

Maybe put the Users and Work disk on a RAID 0 themselves?

Maybe buyng 4 smaller drives and use those a 4 drive RAID 0 as CS2 scratch disk and using the 2 Raptors 10,000 as a RAID 0 for Users - Work disk?

Does anyone have gained a speed benefiti in separating files in a Work Disk, other than Usres and OS?

Thanks for any feedback.

Francesco

kaye
01-06-2007, 11:27 AM
Francesco,

Boots is Da Man to answer your questions fully but I don't see where you are putting the file to be worked with on the CS2 assigned primary scratch disk. Is it on the scratch disk? The rest will be for Boots or someone else to answer. k

TZ
01-06-2007, 11:33 AM
PshopTest2.1 (http://showthread.php?p=83824#post83824) is now available. Building upon PshopTest2, this new version includes refinements for greater accuracy and better standardization.

Photoshop Acceleration Basics (http://homepage.mac.com/boots911/.Public/PhotoshopAccelerationBasics2.3.pdf)

Best Use of Raptor with CS2 (http://www.macgurus.com/forums/showthread.php?t=22914)

Photoshop Test Results (http://www.macgurus.com/forums/showthread.php?t=19741)

Whatever happened after your other thread? (http://www.macgurus.com/forums/showthread.php?t=22754)

CS3 beta is... beta, so it has problems and issues, but really takes performance to a new level already.

And what kaye said, while you are working on a file, move it to scratch. Do some tests, too after going through the above, courtesy of Boots. You could even try booting from your 10K Raptors as RAID and use boot disk + scratch just to see how that works.

If you are using 500GB drives for scratch, might short-stroke it, partition as 1/2 hfs+ and the rest as unused 'free space' unalllocated. If you own SoftRAID, even easier.

And make sure that you didn't use Apple RAID defaults for RAID, make sure it uses 256K block size.

ftonelli
01-06-2007, 11:35 AM
Hi Kaye,

The file was fisrt on my user HD (single SATA Hitachi 250GB)

Then I tried to put it on a RAID 0 made of 2 500GB Hitachi SATA.

CS2 scratch has always remained in the RAID 0 made with 2 Raptors 150GB.

I hope this clarifies.

Thanks,

Francesco

TZ
01-06-2007, 11:40 AM
Save to another location as needed, but keep the file on the scratch RAID.

ftonelli
01-06-2007, 11:41 AM
Whatever happened after your other thread? (http://www.macgurus.com/forums/showthread.php?t=22754)

Thanks TZ I will read through and get PshopTest 2.1.

What happened after my other thread is that I needed to deal with storage and decided to get rid of my firewires and get into SATA burly. I am happy I did so. I am still saving money to buy a MacPro. Hopefully by my birthday in February ;-)

Best,

Francesco

ftonelli
01-06-2007, 11:44 AM
Save to another location as needed, but keep the file on the scratch RAID.

I tried and did not improve performance, actually lost some compared to keep file on Users.

Weird eh?

FT

kaye
01-06-2007, 03:10 PM
Quite possible since it is a small size file. k

ftonelli
01-06-2007, 03:17 PM
Quite possible since it is a small size file. k

384MB is not that small...

And still however takes several seconds to open and save.
Any way to speed this up?
That's where my work time goes by.

Francesco

TZ
01-06-2007, 03:47 PM
Boots! :jollyrog:

Time for Mac Pro. The difference from my MDD was... remember the first G5 Apple ad? whiplash and wind? sort of like that the first day.

Bandwidth. Video. CPU. Disk performance. The time to open and save files. The stock 7300 Nvidia is even nicer than the Radeon 9800 was.

I think you should try booting from Raptor RAID.

SoftRAID 3.6 is bootable which is also welcome.

Small is...? 100-300MB files? large is 1GB? And for a G4.... Kaye did some Photoshop on MDD 1.42DP Giga that was heavily upgraded. That is what the PS Test and discussion thread was for - the kind of results you might expect.

kaye
01-06-2007, 05:25 PM
OK, not that small. It's just that I've never tested the 384MB file, 512MB is the smallest I've tested as I recall. A question, for Memory Useage in CS2 prefs, what are you assigning? 70%? Or what? k

ftonelli
01-07-2007, 06:19 AM
On my first series of PshopTest I found that the best performance in my set up came with 75% memory usage.

Boots
01-07-2007, 12:34 PM
Hi, sorry to arrive late- I've never been able to get thread notifications since 'gurus switched bb providers... :mad:



I set up my new Burly with two WD Raptors 10,000 150GB on RAID 0 as CS2 scratch disk and gained the best speed result with a 384MB file located in my single SATA Hitachi 250Gb Users drive.

Then I tried adding a 2 x 500GB Hitachi RAID 0 and used it as a work disk to contain the 384MB file, but to my disappointment did not gain any faster result than above.

Francesco

Is the 384MB test file size a good approximation of your Photoshop file sizes? Does that include all additional layers and channels you would make?


You could even try booting from your 10K Raptors as RAID and use boot disk + scratch just to see how that works.

I wouldn't at all be surprised if this turns out to be the fastest combo. Also, especially useful if and when you generate additional system swapfiles because of your "small" amount of installed RAM.

You might also try the 2 x 500G Hitachis as a RAID0 for Photoshop scratch or work disk/scratch disk in conjunction with the 2 x 150G Raptor RAID0 system and users drive.

PshopTest2.1 should make it easier to get more accurate testing results.

Generally speaking, if you open and save the Photoshop file on a separate drive from the system drive, open and save performance should be a bit faster..

ftonelli
01-09-2007, 05:23 AM
Hi, sorry to arrive late- I've never been able to get thread notifications since 'gurus switched bb providers... :mad:

No problem. Thank you for helping ;-)


Is the 384MB test file size a good approximation of your Photoshop file sizes? Does that include all additional layers and channels you would make?

Yes it is. However I chose that file size based on my RAM size as PshopTest 2 suggests.


I wouldn't at all be surprised if this turns out to be the fastest combo. Also, especially useful if and when you generate additional system swapfiles because of your "small" amount of installed RAM.

Interesting. I will give it a try.


You might also try the 2 x 500G Hitachis as a RAID0 for Photoshop scratch or work disk/scratch disk in conjunction with the 2 x 150G Raptor RAID0 system and users drive.

Cool. But wouldn't you keep users separate from OS? I currently have them on a 250GB Hitachi. Which one would be more important to be on a 2x150 Raptor RAID0 the OS or the Users?



PshopTest2.1 should make it easier to get more accurate testing results.

Generally speaking, if you open and save the Photoshop file on a separate drive from the system drive, open and save performance should be a bit faster..

That's waht I thought, but my tests reported at the beginning of this post made no difference between the files saved in my User drive or a RAID0 work disk. That's what I don't understand.

Thanks,

Francesco

TZ
01-09-2007, 05:47 AM
if you open and save the Photoshop file on a separate drive from the system drive, open and save performance should be a bit faster..

That's what I thought, but my tests reported at the beginning of this post made no difference between the files saved in my User drive or a RAID0 work disk. That's what I don't understand.

System drive vs separate.

Users drive is always considered to be a separate drive from boot drive.

OS and apps - can be RAID or non-RAID
Users
scratch
data drive

Any or all of which can actually be RAID volumes.

ftonelli
01-09-2007, 06:48 AM
[indent][i]

Users drive is always considered to be a separate drive from boot drive.

OS and apps - can be RAID or non-RAID
Users
scratch
data drive

Any or all of which can actually be RAID volumes.



So I guess that, if you keep your users separate from the OS, there is no need/benefit from another separate work drive to keep working photoshop files. Correct?

Boots
01-09-2007, 08:41 AM
So I guess that, if you keep your users separate from the OS, there is no need/benefit from another separate work drive to keep working photoshop files. Correct?

It sounds like from the testing on your particular hardware setup, very little would be gained from a separate work drive in addition to a users drive and an OS drive.

But I do think if you striped the 150GB Raptors together and put everything on it as a single volume- System, Applications, Library, Users- in otherword, a normal install, you would find this to be the fastest or second fastest setup.

Test 1: Try it with the test file opened and saved from the Desktop and Photoshop's scratch disk pointed to this same 2 x 150GB Raptors striped volume.
Test 2: Then also stripe the two 500GB Hitachis and point Photoshop's scratch to the Hitachi stripe, but again with the test file opened and saved from the Desktop of the 2 x 150GB Raptors striped startup volume.
Test 3: Open and save the test file from the Hitachi stripe also using it as Photoshop's scratch disk.
Test 4: Point Photoshop's scratch back to the striped Raptor startup but open and save the test file from the Hitachi stripe.

This is assuming there is plenty of unused space on the 150GB Raptor stripe volume- at least 40GB.

If you setup the Hitachi stripe as multiple volumes, make sure the first volume is used as the scratch disk or work disk or work disk/scratch disk. Be sure the first volume is at least 15GB.

If you end up adopting this setup where your precious files reside continously on striped RAID volumes- please, please use a daily backup routine onto other standard volumes and/or cds.

I would also seriously consider testing with the 512MB test file instead of the 384MB test file. This is likely to better demonstrate the differences in your current setup from any new configs.
If you do change to the 512MB test file, test your current setup first as a baseline.

ftonelli
01-09-2007, 09:09 AM
Boot, you are the man!

I will work on this as soon as I get into experiment moods and have a bit of time to play around.

One last question:

What do you think of a system with:

2x74GB raptor RAID0 x OS
2x150GB raptor RAID0 x Users
2x500GB hitachi x Scratch

Would separating the Users still provide good benefits?

Francesco

Boots
01-09-2007, 10:34 AM
Would have to test but I think there will be some cpu and RAM penalty plus bus contention from so many stripes..

A basic fact of your computer is a really limited frontside bus speed (relative to G5 or Mac Pro). This is something fast hard drives and RAID stripes can overcome only to a certain extant.

TZ
01-09-2007, 10:46 AM
Also, a couple 150GB Raptors ($575) is over-kill for data, media or your home Users.

Booting, scratch, combo boot + scratch = yes. Or scratch.

The new 74GB 16MB cache Raptor is also slightly faster than the older, uses NCQ instead of TCQ.

Some people want a RAID just so writing and saving a copy of their file while they are working on a file can be sped up and not take so long which is very noticeable when you get to working on 1GB file. And you have the drives etc.

A G4 has a total of 220MB/sec for PCI - a 10K Raptor uses 75MB (or more) so three Raptors concurrently and you are hitting the ceiling. Two RAIDs? maxed out.

ftonelli
01-09-2007, 03:49 PM
Thank you guys.

It is all starting to make more sense.

I'll do some tests and keep saving for the MacPro :)

Thank you for all the info.

Francesco