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daveseeley
10-30-2005, 01:24 PM
Hi Gurus,

After another scsi headache which appears to be the result of a cable connection vibrating loose....(a granite cable) I was out surfing ebay, and came across an almost new MacGurus 4 bay burly sata case...and went for it. Not sure if I should switch my scsi raid over to sata yet, and I'll ask about that in a bit...but at the least, I was shopping for external big drives to store lots of pics and photos, so the burly may start as an unglamourous warehouse of sorts, and later be crowned Miss PhotoshopRaidUSA. My needs are 1. speed for a photoshop scratch (cs2) and 2. lottsa storage space...with a bit of 3. flegling interest in video. Dual 2.5 G5, 4.5gb ram, Tiger

My uninformed gut is that the mac and scsi parted ways a few years back, and scsi is now the province of high end systems. I may be glossing over enterprise systems because I know nada, but I'm a desktopper. Atto in particular seems to be the only retail market scsi option with a stated intention to support scsi on the mac into the foggy future. That makes me think the switch to sata may be the wiser long term move. I know there are architectural i/o differences that may make scsi a better raid even with even quickbench numbers...but I'm very foggy on that.

My scsi 4x15.3k raid is a scratch-save for photoshop. It's quickbench 100mb test is 263 sread, 232 swrite, which mirrors a test done by Kaye on one channel of the ul4d card (mine is the ul4s). I'm way impressed with the latest database additions of the 3x and 4x 74gb raptors...big numbers. I could swap my 36gb Cheetahs and buy Raptors, at about an even swap in dollars, and I could downgrade my ul4s for a ul3s (need scsi for tape backup, but moving scsi out of my pci-x 133 slot to accomodate a 4x sata card anyway), and use the difference to help finance a new sata card.

I have a 300gb Maxtor diamondmax 10 drive with a boot partition, and the rest as file cabinet. The Quickbench numbers for the 100mb for that drive is 52 SR 67 SW, where the 1x Raptor in Kaye's test was 64 SR 74 SW. The 4x raptors go up to 231 SR 341 SW (which blows my scsi out of the water). But that makes me wonder if a 4x raid of 300gb Maxtors would outperform my scsi, AND give me a 1200 gb storage total. How to know what their raid potential is..? I read in another post, that someone (Kaye?) was partitioning drives and using only part of the drive in the raid. Is it a good idea to partition, say the fastest 30gb of each 300gb drive for a raid, and use the other 270gb of each drive as non-raid storage volumes? would the stored data be at more risk than if they were not sharing drives with raid partitions? Man that is a very attractive concept waiting for someone to rain on it.

I think it was Kaye that tested a burly 4 bay raid with a drive on the floor as a 5th bay. Is that a burly supported option? If yes, I like the idea of that fifth external drive, but it means I'll need a card with 5+ external connections...which looks like the tempo-x 8. If I go with only 4 external drives, I like the tempo x 4+4 because I can replace an internal Sonnet 2 channel card and free up a pci slot, or alternatley, I can go with the Firmtek IVe4 and keep the internal. Why is the tempo-x 8 $300 when the 4+4 is $200? Is there a performance upgrade as well? No need to boot from the card. Any recommendations on the card choice....speed is paramount...though I just read on the forum (TZ) that Photoshop CS2 is more ram hungry than scratch dependent now, and I just made the switch.

Sorry for the ramble...and Thanks for any Guru insights....

Dave Seeley

TZ
10-30-2005, 02:56 PM
My needs are 1. speed for a photoshop scratch (cs2) and 2. lottsa storage space...with a bit of 3. flegling interest in video. Dual 2.5 G5, 4.5gb ram, Tiger, ul4s

My scsi 4x15.3k raid is a scratch-save for photoshop.
It's quickbench 100mb test is 263 sread, 232 swrite,
Kaye's 4x raptors go up to 231 SR 341 SW (which blows my scsi out of the water
Raptors are optimized for writes, and it may be that you can tweak the Cheetahs in SR3, or rezero the drives, or QB-X isn't perfect (I prefer ZoneBench personally).

Add RAM. CS2 loves to have 6-8GB. That seems to be primary, if you need is to boost performance.

The UL4S isn't making good use of the 4th Cheetah. UL4D would have been my choice if possible. And then, the option of upgrading to the latest 15K drives (Atlas 15K II as the 15K.4 just doesn't seem to show the same, based on SR rather than anyone's personal feedback/experience).

There is definitely a place for SATA. Even using SATA along with SCSI into one RAID, so check out kaye's latest 'G5 2.7DP' thread and RAID report, AND PS CS2 results - lot of numbers to churn. Not just 'either/or' if you have the slots and Burlys.

SoftRAID 3 would be the only way to make this all work, and only way to partition a RAID. I assume you've got a copy already.

As for investing into 300GB drives, yes. But there are those 7K500's out there also now. Pricey but nice.

kaye
10-30-2005, 03:29 PM
Dave,

I am flat out tired, having awakened early due to the time change and spending most of the day creating a dotMac web page via iPhoto for birthdays, old Navy stuff, reunions, wife's trips, etc. Have tons more to do. Anyway I hope my feeble brain can cover some of the bases here.

Boot's Sample PshopTest Results (http://macgurus.com/forums/showthread.php?t=19741) has some interesting results and you might want to try the test. I hate to see you give up on your current SCSI RAID as a Pshop scratch. A lot depends on how big the files are that you work with. More RAM than what you have in Pshop CS2 definitely helps. Even tho the prefs will show at a setting of 100% 3072MB, CS2 will use up to whatever is left over after the Tiger OS and Pshop itself. Anyway, definitely consider more RAM. It can ease the need for a state of the art scratch disk.

I have been experimenting with larger test files, up to 6GB Pshop Test File, which after installing and preparing, and then running, becomes up to a 74GB file as I recall during the test steps towards the end. More RAM certainly helps, tho the Test Results total is more near 2000s.

Back to state of the art scratch disk with some thoughts:
1. Even SCSI is evolving in drives. The Maxtor Atlas 15K II drives because they are newer have U320 technologies builtin that are not in the X15.3 drives which have been around for quite awhile. So the Maxtors are capable of higher read/write than the Cheetahs. Reliability? I don't know, my first SCSI Atlas drives. My X15.3 drives have been bulletproof.

2. I like the UL3D and UL4D models because when you RAID across the channels, you get the bus doubling technology of for instance U640 with the UL4D U320 card. Four very fast drives on the UL4S single channel U320 is crippling thruput.

3. My 4x X15.3 drives are 18GB. My 4x 15K II drives are 36GB. My 4x Raptors are 74GB. When I stripe RAID them together with SoftRAID, SR finds the smallest drive in that mix and builds the RAID based on that smallest size, or about 12x 18GB, about 215GB. I am definitely not a fan of using the remainder on the Atlas and Raptors for anything else. To me that would be creating the possibility of turning bulletproof into intermittent. So yeah, if you want 2 Burlys, one for scratch, one for storage, that would be a better way to go to me.

4. I really like the SeriTek/1VE4. Up until yesterday I would have said that it coupled with my Burly 4x Raptor74s is bulletproof. Only to find out yesterday that his Raptor74s (I don't know where he purchased them) came with no jumper disabling SSC. He also purchased some Seagate 7200.9 drives and we believe that because they are exhibiting the same tendencies that he was getting with the Raptors with SSC enabled, we are trying to ascertain whether SSC can be disabled via jumper.

5. I believe, at least for sure with all the Burlys I have, that an extra drive can be installed under the bottom bay of the 4-bay and 8-bay. I only did it in my SATA 4-bay in order to test the 5-port Netcell card. I still have a Raptor36 in that bay, little room to install a cooler tho. I have pulled the power plug to it since 4x Raptor74s is enough and they are significantly faster than the Raptor36.

More questions or comments Dave, or anyone else care to comment? k

daveseeley
10-30-2005, 06:30 PM
TZ and Kaye,

You guys are the best...and please take the rest of the day off! (instant replies not needed) (I hope you're on the payroll...)

Thanks for your very thoughtful responses. I'll take the time to comb through them in the next few days and probably ask a few more questions.

Generally I'd say that you may not be factoring the cost conscousness that I need to adhere to. I'd consider the swap now, because the cheetah 36gb 15.3's still have a decent resale value, and the Maxtor 300 diamondmax can be had for less than a hundred bucks per on recent occassions (as opposed to the 7k500's). That was very appealing given the potential of getting a comparable raid, and deep storage by partitioning each drive. I'm hearing you Kaye that you wouldn't do that...and I have no need for a 1200 gb raid, and don't anticipate the video production that might make that less than crazy, so I guess it would need to be Raptors...maybe 3 and a 300gb storage drive. The Raptors are a bit more expensive than the Cheetah resale, but I could likely trade the four Cheetahs for the four drives in the burly.

I'm hearing you that CS2 is different for scratch and memory...last I heard, CS2 and TIger hadn't happended yet, but the word was that the memory usable by PS would still be limited. Maybe they figured a way around that and after I read the Boots work, I can dump my scratch raid and just buy more memory?

My ps files are typically 500mb to 1.2 gigs (closed), so write time for saves is a pretty big deal. Watching the save progress bar is a drag, and on occasion, even with my raid, I can go get a coffee refill. My current raid is probably fast enough for scratch. It looks from Kayes numbers, that three raptors in the sata burly could give me a 100mb 249mb/sec sustained write. That looks pretty sweet...and isn't that better than my scsi 232mb/sec (or effectively "as good")? Is the hit on sustained read significant in scratch (263 to 170)? I could put a 300gb maxtor in the last bay for cold storage, or a fourth Raptor for the full 241/341 that Kaye got in his testing.

Yes! my scsi raid could be tweaked to get better performance...but look at the costs! New Atlas drives? ($1400?)...upgrade to a ul4d ($500)+ another int and ext cable ($200). My 3x Cheetah raid gave me 60mb/sec read and write over the 2x...4x was another 60mb/sec read, and only another 30mb/sec write, so that fourth cheetah may not be giving me that extra 30 mb/sec write...but for $700, I can get by without it. In fact for $700, I can buy 3 Raptors and a burly box!

As for "both" as an answer, I only have one 133 pci-x slot...which apears to make a serious performance diff for both scsi and sata....so maybe by both, you mean sata for large capacity storage, and scsi for scratch....which is definitely a way to go for now=burly as an external storage vault, though I'm not sure if I'll push my wall outlets over the edge with two 4 bay boxes running.

I'm enough of a geek to want to play with both systems, but I'm a digital illustrator, and we don't make much cash.

Speaking of which...if you two would like a print, it's the least I can do to send you one....check it out and let me know. (daveseeley.com)

Thanks

dAve

TZ
10-31-2005, 06:03 AM
There is a wealth of testing and benchmarking already showing that CS2 does benefit from more memory. Either from my FAQ, or head over to the forum for Graphic Studio which has some PS information.

If you have PCI-X then you have two separate PCI buses (sortof), two that are 100MHz and one that is 133MHz. As long as you know what cards you are using, yes PCI bandwidth matters, but a UL3D or UL4S can get along fine in 100MHz.

I'm sure someone would welcome your UL4S if you did need to upgrade to UL4D eventually.

kaye
10-31-2005, 08:09 AM
Exactly as TZ sez Dave. You have two PCI-X busses. For my G5 FrankenRAID, I have a UL4D in the PCI-X 133MHx slot, another UL4D in a PCI-X 100MHz slot, and SeriTek/1VE4 in the other PCI-X 100MHz slot. Not necessary to have the 1VE4 in the 133MHz slot (and it has never been in that slot) with 4x Raptor74s, even with the UL4D and 4x Cheetah X15.3 drives running in the other 100MHz slot. Plenty of bandwidth.

About the only thing I was careful about was to put the 4x Atlas 15K II drives on the UL4D in the 133MHz slot. Maybe that will alter your thinking about the upgrades you are considering. "500mb to 1.2 gigs", you should try both Pshop tests with what you have currently and compare with what has been posted. Then perhaps make some decisions about scratch and file save and RAM. You can certainly have both SCSI and SATA. Both are currently evolving at a dizzying pace.

BTW, we don't get paid, just a Mac labor of love thing. Thanks for the offer. I will wait until we get this successfully completed. k

daveseeley
12-15-2005, 02:32 PM
OK...finally got enough scratch ($$$) to buy some drives. I got a Sonnet Tempo 4+4 (no 'e') sata card on ebay. After installing the card, I had some size large headaches with chronic system crashes that were eventually solved by turning off hard drive sleep, and system sleep....man that was awful...I restored my system from backup thinking it was a security update that corrupted my system.

I just got two maxline III 300gb drives and installed them in the burley. (The need for big storage is to keep a backup of photo and video files, which are currently at risk. I back up all my working files, system, portfolio, and image catalogues on dat tape via retrospect.)

I have a maxtor diamondmax 10 300gb partitioned as boot drive/low access storage. I have two 200gb seagate drives as internal working drives. If the burley is merely a storage vault, then I will likely clone these two (1 year warranty) seagates to the two new maxline III (5 years warranty), and put the seagates in the deep storage backup burly.....

But...

I did a little Quickbenching of the two new drives....and they spec out a bit better than the Diamondmax 10 (though these are empty, and I think the diamondmax already had data when I got Quickbench. The two models are physically identical I believe...only the warranty (3-5) varies. The 100 megaBytes test gives me 56mb/sec read and 72mb/sec write. When I raid the two together (apple raid), I get 105 read, and 155 write. The same Quickbench test on two of my 15.3 Cheetahs/UL4s is 143 read, 141 write. There's a significant hit on read (which may effect photoshop scratch) but the sata is better for write....which would save a bit on file saves.... I wish I had another one or two of these maxlines to play with...but can't affort them now. I'd love to see what 3 or 4 or these can do as a raid.

...and....apple raid in Tiger lets you partition the drives...and then raid one of the partitions per drive. I do have softraid but didn't try it with that. When I make a 40gb partition on each drive, and just raid those...I get the same performance on Quickbench as the two raided full drives: 105 read, 155 write. I don't know how stable it would be to do what I suggest in my openner in this thread and use that second partition for backup storage, but if the raid partition went down, and the second larger partition was uneffected after a raid failure, I could even move the data first if I needed to rebuild the raid partitions...

I know Kaye baulked at the idea of using that space for storage...but the idea is very attractive to me unless I'm missing something (which could well be the case)(Kaye said "I am definitely not a fan of using the remainder on the Atlas and Raptors for anything else"... )

BTW...my scsi raid has been bulletproof through it all since my initial post.

Happy year-end celebrating to all you Guru types!

Dave

kaye
12-15-2005, 07:10 PM
(Kaye said "I am definitely not a fan of using the remainder on the Atlas and Raptors for anything else"... )
Dave,

Glad you got it all running good. MLIII-16MB is my G5 primary boot drive, DiamondMax 300GB PATA primary in my MDD.

That unused space is very attractive as single or multi drive volumes. My thought is that your primary RAID volume is capable of taking down not only its own volume but also taking down a drive. That's all. I use SoftRAID for my Burly RAIDs at 128KB stripe units. To see what the latest Apple RAID could do for my 12x FrankenRAID, I tried the 256KB SU option (which SoftRAID does not offer) and ran a very large size file Pshop test. The 256KB SU was not only significantly slower but also about half way thru the test caused a disaster. No more Apple RAID with my 12x RAID. Fortunately no permanent disaster. k

daveseeley
12-15-2005, 07:40 PM
OK...Kaye...you talked me out of it. No SATA raid for now. I did pick up some Granite cables and verified through their support line that they were u320 compliant....but the thumb screws are too big to fit the ul4s holes....seems there are two scsi screw sizes. I do remember that at one point I had a cable on a raid years ago where the screws were too small, and I was depending on friction to hold it in place. Is there an easy way to swap out the screws or more likely the nuts on the card plate?

Still need to run down the photoshop testing when I have a breather.

My offer is still open for prints.

Cheers

D

kaye
12-15-2005, 08:42 PM
Dave,

To swap out the screws on the connector means sending the cable back to Granite. To swap out the nuts on the back plate, which is actually a nut on one end and a screw at the other end for the back plate, just call or email Granite support. And get more than you need for your parts bin. Explain the problem to them. I stripped the threads on the nut end once and they sent me a bunch gratis. That was way back when I first started using the external cables and the cable screws had a straight slot, inviting tightening with a screw driver, inviting trouble. Tighter is better? Wrong. Kenny at Granite told me hand tight. Live and learn. k

daveseeley
01-02-2006, 10:35 AM
Happy new year Gurus!

OK,

I replaced my ul4s with a ul4d.... downloaded and installed the latest Configuration tool, driver and flash files. I added a second internal ribbon in my 4x Cheetah raid, and got two granite external cables with micro hd connectors for the ul4D...new terminator. On the first restart with new software....I did NOT delete my Apple software raid on the four drives, thinking they might just mount as usual but now on two separate channels. Only two of the drives showed up in Disk Util.....so I erased one, and reinitialized with a number that matched the scsi ID to keep track of the two drives in troubleshooting. I went to erase the second visible drive, and Disk Utility hung with the beachball. I force quite, and did a repeat hang in Disk Utility. Then the system froze. I restarted and got more freezes and dark window shades. I put all drives back on a the initial single internal ribbon cable and could still see only the two drives. Erasing the second gets me the same Disk Util hang. I went back to a backup startup disk with the older ATTO software, and the system couldn't see any drive, or card at all. I reinstalled the ul4s and cabled to the single internal ribbon (approximating my original setup) and restarted on backup boot drive, and the system could not see the ul4s in either system profiler or ATTO config. I restarted on the original boot drive with the new ATTO software, and get the same invisible ul4s. It apprears to be seated properly in slot 4.

Youch...

Any suggestions?

Thanks

Dave

TZ
01-02-2006, 10:52 AM
When swapping ATTO (or any PCI controller for that matter) ATTO 'recommends' that you also reset nvram on the first boot.

As for initializing a drive before 'breaking' or deleting RAID - I am not surprised it didn't work and hung. Delete the RAID first. Then give it a go. We like SoftRAID 3.3 for best results, especially when it comes to SCSI. More reliable, you can even partition a RAID if needed.

You really show commitment to getting this done right. Of course one thing that will help your workflow is to first give your system as much RAM as possible. Boots and kaye, along with Barefeats, have shown that while PS CS3 only "uses" 3.5GB of RAM, anything above that will be used as memory cache/scratch (think of the old RAM disk tricks of olde).

kaye
01-02-2006, 11:16 AM
Everything TZ said plus another beauty of SoftRAID is:

One not well known item about SoftRAID when you need its driver removed because another disk utility is unable to overwrite the SoftRAID driver. This technique will initialize with no driver. Taken from their website: "NOTE: SoftRAID uses a single driver to control all devices, rather than load a separate driver for each device. You may find that after installing SoftRAID on a device, it is difficult to remove the driver with other utilities. SoftRAID allows you to completely remove its driver, by holding the option key when selecting Initialize. Then select quick initialize, and SoftRAID will leave the device blank with no driver. AFTER a reboot, any formatting utility will be able to control the drive..."

That works with a SoftRAID RAID or an Apple RAID. I do it one drive at a time (or volumes if you have more than one). Takes awhile if you have a lot of drives or volumes but it works well. Then, after reboot, I create a new SoftRAID RAID (or Apple RAID). I think SoftRAID has short cuts for this operation but I prefer one at a time just to be sure it is bulletproof. k

daveseeley
01-02-2006, 11:37 AM
TZ...how to reset nvram? Is this a pram key combo at restart?

I moved my ul4s to slot 3 and it shows up now now prob. I then could see three drives, and initialized the 2 that hadn't been. I then found a connector pulled half open on the internal ribbon cable. pushing it back together didn't get me the drive, so don't know if that if even repairable. Rather get back to the ul4d where I won't need that connector.
I put the ul4D back in slot 4, and it is still invisible in profiler or Config tool. I'm afraid to put in in slot 3 in case it has fried my slot 4 and would do the same to 3....

Is it possible that nvram reset will show me my ul4D???? reset pram and no change in slot 4 invisiblility.

No new ram yet....maybe soon....I'll need to replace 512 chips with 1mb chips, so it's a bit painful.

also odd is that the ul4s in slot 3 shows twice in profiler (always has) and that in the expanded information in the bottom pane, it shows the name as ExtressPCIProUL4D....odd.

TZ
01-02-2006, 12:07 PM
You reset nvram to prevent corrupt nvram, and so that the system 'learns' what the new hardware configuration is. Resetting nvram is mentioned frequently and there is a link to Apple document to get the full scoop. It should be used instead of pram reset etc

command + option + o + f on startup or restart

> reset-nvram
> set-defaults
> reset-all

will restart and look for your boot drive; or, just use the Option key to have it look for a boot volume. You will want/need to go to Startup disk and set the volume.

ASP shows each channel is what I think you are seeing and referring to.

You should see something like this (I have two UL3Ds in this MDD):

ATTO ExpressPCI UL3D:

Name: ATTO,ExpressPCIProUL3D
Type: scsi-2
Bus: PCI
Slot: SLOT-4
Vendor ID: 0x1000
Device ID: 0x0020
Subsystem Vendor ID: 0x117c
Subsystem ID: 0x0007
ROM Revision: 1.6.6f0
Revision ID: 0x0001

ATTO ExpressPCI UL3D:

Name: ATTO,ExpressPCIProUL3D
Type: scsi-2
Bus: PCI
Slot: SLOT-4
Vendor ID: 0x1000
Device ID: 0x0020
Subsystem Vendor ID: 0x117c
Subsystem ID: 0x0007
ROM Revision: 1.6.6f0
Revision ID: 0x0001

ATTO ExpressPCI UL3D:

Name: ATTO,ExpressPCIProUL3D
Type: scsi-2
Bus: PCI
Slot: SLOT-5
Vendor ID: 0x1000
Device ID: 0x0020
Subsystem Vendor ID: 0x117c
Subsystem ID: 0x0007
ROM Revision: 1.6.6f0
Revision ID: 0x0001

ATTO ExpressPCI UL3D:

Name: ATTO,ExpressPCIProUL3D
Type: scsi-2
Bus: PCI
Slot: SLOT-5
Vendor ID: 0x1000
Device ID: 0x0020
Subsystem Vendor ID: 0x117c
Subsystem ID: 0x0007
ROM Revision: 1.6.6f0
Revision ID: 0x0001


Can't or don't see the "edit" button? I think you have ~ 5 minutes to change and edit a post. So I went and consolidated your three posts into one for now.

Even the UL4S in Apple-speak is a "dual channel" of sorts, one internal, and one external. They do that on UL3S. All because the OEM UL3D they use to include (which was really not a UL3D in any sense of the word, except you could use internal LVD drives, and use the external connector for narrow devices - they should have come out with something more like the Adaptec 29160N in my opinion.

daveseeley
01-02-2006, 12:36 PM
TZ

I reset pram, and then used your post to reset nvram (though it looks on the apple site like pram reset has already reset nvram. My ul4s in slot 3 looks exactly as you show below in terms of the double listing...only here is what it says in the bottom pane of asp:

ATTO ExpressPCI UL4S:

Name: ATTO,ExpressPCIProUL4D
Type: scsi-2
Bus: PCI
Slot: SLOT-3
Vendor ID: 0x117c
Device ID: 0x0030
Subsystem Vendor ID: 0x117c
Subsystem ID: 0x8014
ROM Revision: 1.4.2f1
Revision ID: 0x0008

Just odd that it ID's as a UL4D as the name. Maybe a sign of corruption? Is there a possible cache issue?
Any idea if there is some other software thing that could keep my ul4d invisible. As I mentioned, it was initially visible when I updated software and flash...before I restarted with raid powerup up. Then invisible, and pulled and reinstalled...and still invisible in slot 4. I may go ahead and install the ul4d in slot 3 to see if it will show up there. I am worried that if the card killed slot 4....it could kill slot 3 too. Any reason to think that would or would not be a likelyhood?

Thanks

Dave

TZ
01-02-2006, 12:49 PM
I assume that the driver for UL4S and UL4D are the same, yes?
And that you made sure to repair permissions after installing Config Utility and ATTO Driver.
And, that the flash procedure went smoothly.

Personally, to be on the conservative side, I would remove all ATTO controllers, then reset nvram (pram is a subset of nvram, not the other way around) and see that nothing shows up. Then firmly insert the UL4D where you want it. You will want/need to reset nvram yet again.

PRAM was used more in OS 9 and with MDD and G5s or OS X only systems, I don't bother, not on any NewWorld+ machines. A cold start and zap pram should clear nvram, but it does not rebuild the device tree. A PMU reset will reset nvram also I'm told. Even chaning the memory configuration should.

Sounds like you made sure to flash the card with no drives attached. Did you happen to notice what firmware the UL4D had before? If you look in the FAQ under "ATTO" (http://www.macgurus.com/forums/showthread.php?t=10381) there are notes about flashing and tips. Seems that there were some (pre-March 2005) units that had older firmware and not as easy to do. There is a sticky thread under "SCSI" forum on ATTO (http://www.macgurus.com/forums/showthread.php?t=19185) with some questions and experiences from others, if you want to look there also.

And yes, you could delete the extension mkext and cache files to force a rebuild.

daveseeley
01-02-2006, 02:30 PM
I assume that the driver for UL4S and UL4D are the same, yes?

Yes


And that you made sure to repair permissions after installing Config Utility and ATTO Driver.
And, that the flash procedure went smoothly.

Yes, Yes


Personally, to be on the conservative side, I would remove all ATTO controllers, then reset nvram (pram is a subset of nvram, not the other way around) and see that nothing shows up. Then firmly insert the UL4D where you want it. You will want/need to reset nvram yet again.

I did it, though did not remove drivers or the Config app. pulled the cards, reset nvram, repaired permissions, no cards shown in asp. Shut down, reinstalled the ul4d, reset nvram, repaired permissions, and the UL4D is invisible in slot 4.


PRAM was used more in OS 9 and with MDD and G5s or OS X only systems, I don't bother, not on any NewWorld+ machines. A cold start and zap pram should clear nvram, but it does not rebuild the device tree. A PMU reset will reset nvram also I'm told. Even chaning the memory configuration should.

Sounds like you made sure to flash the card with no drives attached. Did you happen to notice what firmware the UL4D had before? If you look in the FAQ under "ATTO" (http://www.macgurus.com/forums/showthread.php?t=10381) there are notes about flashing and tips. Seems that there were some (pre-March 2005) units that had older firmware and not as easy to do. There is a sticky thread under "SCSI" forum on ATTO (http://www.macgurus.com/forums/showthread.php?t=19185) with some questions and experiences from others, if you want to look there also.
Firmware prior to flash showed as not available or corrupt. Maybe it had been in a PC. The flash said it was successful to the latest 1.5


And yes, you could delete the extension mkext and cache files to force a rebuild.

Haven't tried that yet...but think it may be unlikely given that the card is invisible....
Next I'll move the UL4D to slot 3 and see if it shows up.

I have a sonnet 4+4 card (pre esata) installed in slot 2....fyi.

Thanks TZ

Dave

daveseeley
01-02-2006, 03:35 PM
One of those long and incredibly unproductive days. OK...I went to move the ul4d to the 3 slot, but in the process took a hard look with a flashlight and noticed that one of the black plastic pull-tapes from a plug connector above slot 4 was hanging down and caught in the slot, and hence blocking some of the card contacts. After pulling it out, and reslotting, now the card is visible!!!!

But..... I'm not out of my woods yet. With the raid set up for two channels, on the micro hd cables, only two of the four drives are showing up. I did re-initialize all of them via the ul4s as 1,2,3,4. I have one and two on one channel, and three and four on the other channel. The odd thing is that one drive from each channel is showing....but not the other. All my little green granite lights are lighting on cables and terminators. These are 15.3K cheetahs. All internal connectors look to be in place and in good shape.

Hmmmm.

D

TZ
01-02-2006, 03:49 PM
You posted while I was fretting. Not sure what is up with your cables and drives.

What I said, may no longer apply, but I 'll leave it here:
Sorry to see this is going so bad. Where did you buy the UL4D? I hope not someone like OWC.

Also, someone from ATTO sometimes stops by. But do a favor, add a message to that SCSI ATTO thread about your UL4D woes, please.

I was going to say "remove all PCI cards."

Where are your drives? you mention an internal cable. With a G5, I assume you are talking about changing cables in an external Burly type case? You had four drives on one channel, now you have two drives on each channel.

And then two drives don't show. I assume those drives were both on channel B. Meaning one channel is not working - maybe.

Then there is the "unknown" firmware before you did anything. not good. Which is why I want to know where this card has been. And why I hope you have an email to ATTO already (they tend to be quick to respond).

When you had multiple entries in System Profiler, I wanted to see the line "slot number 3/4" - same item as what I highlighted in bold.

You also mention a connector "pulled half open" which - if you look - you might need a magnifying glass - might indicate a bent pin, something we've all run into and needed to use a fin tool to straighten and make sure it fits correctly. It is possible to have it look and feel like it is flat and fully inserted, but the pin bent (and fixable luckily).

Also, kaye posted photos of his card. When you look at it, can you find a serial number, manufacturer's date, or other identifying information on the card?

Because it doesn't show in Config, you can't verify the firmware that is on the card. Did anything in the ATTO FAQ or thread (March 2005 firmware update issue) help? Right now, I think it needs to go to ATTO to have them inspect the card. :(

daveseeley
01-02-2006, 04:25 PM
HI TZ
The card was an eBay purchase, so without support likely. I'm affraid that I am a low budget kind of guy for this stuff, and at full boat, I could not have considered the ul4d upgrade. If defective it could go back to the seller, though so far, I don't have evidence for that.... Here's asp stats:
ATTO ExpressPCI UL4D:

Name: ATTO,ExpressPCIProUL4D
Type: scsi-2
Bus: PCI
Slot: SLOT-4
Vendor ID: 0x117c
Device ID: 0x0030
Subsystem Vendor ID: 0x117c
Subsystem ID: 0x8013
ROM Revision: 1.5.0
Revision ID: 0x0008



The card is now fully visible in system profiler and Config. Latest firmware shows that the flash was successful. The problem is that only one drive per channel is mounting. Also, when I try to rescan in the Config tool, it spins forever, and if I quit, and try to restart, I get a freeze.....sounds very scsi like...no? My box is an external 4 drive case with two internal ribbons...each connected to two drives now. I have now put each internal ribbon on my 68 micro cable to ul3s, and then both drives mount as per usual....so I know that the internal ribbons and connections are golden. So the question now is why only one drive per channel on the UL4D is mounting. It could be that both hd cables have a problem....but that is unlikely given that it would be two identical problems...plus ...why would one drive mount and not the other? So that makes me suspect the UL4D card, or the software setup for it. I have reset the nvram for the card after I reinstalled it. Next I may try to wipe out the driver and reinstall it.

Please don't fret on my account!


You posted while I was fretting. Not sure what is up with your cables and drives.

What I said, may no longer apply, but I 'll leave it here:
Sorry to see this is going so bad. Where did you buy the UL4D? I hope not someone like OWC.

Also, someone from ATTO sometimes stops by. But do a favor, add a message to that SCSI ATTO thread about your UL4D woes, please.

I will if we can't solve this...and I'll try contacting ATTO too. When we get a solution, I'll post it in your thread as well.


I was going to say "remove all PCI cards."

You also mention a connector "pulled half open" which - if you look - you might need a magnifying glass - might indicate a bent pin, something we've all run into and needed to use a fin tool to straighten and make sure it fits correctly. It is possible to have it look and feel like it is flat and fully inserted, but the pin bent (and fixable luckily).

Also, kaye posted photos of his card. When you look at it, can you find a serial number, manufacturer's date, or other identifying information on the card?

(

The connector that pulled open was on my original 4 position internal ribbon cable. Currently I only need two on that cable, so the damaged one is not in use now. I suppose there could be a conflict with the sonnet sata card, though I had no problem with it and the UL4S...though it was on an earlier driver version.

Cheers

Dave

TZ
01-02-2006, 05:10 PM
I kinda figured it was an ebay board. Friday I happened to notice OWC's clearance page has UL4S for ~$250, which would have given you a 2nd channel and not have to buy as many cables.

A bent connector pin, even if you aren't using that slot, could still cause trouble and ID conflict. As long as the serial number wasn't scratched or removed, you're probably okay, and I think someone at ATTO could even tell where it came from (I bought a UL3S 4 yrs ago and they were surprised to find it had Canadian serial number).

SCSI really isn't voodoo. People, maybe. Maybe someone tried to flash that card, failed, and tried ebay. Or maybe they already know about the trouble you are finding.

At worst, it might be possible to use the UL4S and two drives on UL4D.

One member here had X15.3's and UL3D and found that only three drives or four showed. Got UL4D and didn't have any problems. Something about the G5 and needing a true Ultra320 controller if I recall.

The "spinning forever" was one of the things in the pre-March UL4D issues also. I thought the newer firmware fixed that. But it may be because those drives really need to be initialized again.

You can also, with the UL4's change parameters for each drive, and has some support for "hot swap" capability - to power up/down without restart I think, but I'd have to look into that.

I keep a cable tester on hand, from Granite, just to know if all 136 lines are working properly (68 x 2).

daveseeley
01-02-2006, 05:43 PM
If the issue is a bent connector pin on the 4 position internal cable, then I have an identical issue on the other channel with a separate 2 position internal cable...seems unlikely. I had no problems mounting all four 15.3 drives on the UL4S...would be odd that each channel can only mount one drive. I see that the driver has open firmware configure stuff to set various options, but I suppose that would not be effecting me if I have installed that driver from an older one. The drives HAVE BEEN initialized today...do you mean again? It would need to be via the UL4S for drives 2 and 4.

I reinstalled the Config Tool and driver. Couldn't uninstall without the open firmware commands, and I'm pretty blind with unix, so I just reinstalled. I then repaired permissions, and rebooted, and reset nvram. Now the Config tool will remount the two drives (1 and 3) but not the other two, which are easiliy seen on the ul4s.

Cable tester sounds great...is it pricey? If your green lights are on, does it mean that all the pins are firing?

At this point I think I'll see if I can dig up anything on the ATTO site, and maybe shoot them an email...I'll let you know how it turns out. Give a hollar if you have other notions.

Thanks TZ...


I kinda figured it was an ebay board. Friday I happened to notice OWC's clearance page has UL4S for ~$250, which would have given you a 2nd channel and not have to buy as many cables.

A bent connector pin, even if you aren't using that slot, could still cause trouble and ID conflict. As long as the serial number wasn't scratched or removed, you're probably okay, and I think someone at ATTO could even tell where it came from (I bought a UL3S 4 yrs ago and they were surprised to find it had Canadian serial number).

SCSI really isn't voodoo. People, maybe. Maybe someone tried to flash that card, failed, and tried ebay. Or maybe they already know about the trouble you are finding.

At worst, it might be possible to use the UL4S and two drives on UL4D.

One member here had X15.3's and UL3D and found that only three drives or four showed. Got UL4D and didn't have any problems. Something about the G5 and needing a true Ultra320 controller if I recall.

The "spinning forever" was one of the things in the pre-March UL4D issues also. I thought the newer firmware fixed that. But it may be because those drives really need to be initialized again.

You can also, with the UL4's change parameters for each drive, and has some support for "hot swap" capability - to power up/down without restart I think, but I'd have to look into that.

I keep a cable tester on hand, from Granite, just to know if all 136 lines are working properly (68 x 2).

daveseeley
01-17-2006, 06:29 AM
HI Gurus,

Wanted to let you know what happened with my ul4d issue. I went to ATTO tech support, and spent a bunch of time with them trying various fixes, and still got only two of the four drives to mount (the first on each chain). Finally we were all stumped, and I sent the card to them. As it turned out, it was a "raised capacitor" which was disabling the cards termination. They suspected a manufacturing defect. The card was still under warrantly, and ATTO tech was incredible. Should be golden upon return. Here was the final message from Ryan at ATTO

Dave,

I had to go back there and find out exactly what it was again. It turns out the internal termination, which is automatically done with our cards so that you don't have to terminate the internal channels of the card, was actually not connected all the way. That makes total sense now too. I've hooked up multiple drives toa card before and taken the terminator off. Sure enough the last drive on that chain does not show up! Well... glad we figured this one out1 thanks for sticking through it!

Regards,

Ryan F., Technical Support Technician
ATTO Technology, Inc. 155 CrossPoint Parkway Amherst, New York 14068
PHONE: 716-691-1999 ext. 188 - FAX: 716-691-9353
EMAIL: TechSupp@attotech.com
www.attotech.com