View Full Version : G5

06-23-2003, 11:26 AM
?Gregory is now gonna have to buy a computer. Hate to say it, but that day has come. Looks like Jobs and company will have finally produced the machine that totally jumps up a notch or two in every way. Sorry Greg, hope you been saving your nickels.


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06-23-2003, 12:33 PM
There is a 24/7 cable TV channel "G4" which is all about Games - all day, all the time, just games. As for "G5" I think they should've come up with something. I know they wouldn't call it the "IBM PowerPC 970" or the POWER4 970...

Anyone want a Beige decked out? How about a maxed out Blue G3? I almost had to take a pill to stop thinking about it!

$2000 is half what my SE/30 cost.

If I just stop spending on controllers, kvm switches, cables, and disk drives for a couple months, all that nickle and dime upgrades to software and all, I might make it.

I read someone talked to the Apple Store and while they wouldn't take an order yet, there might be some 1.6's in the channel and ready to ship in a week, post July 4th probably.

I might even sell a pair of 15K Cheetahs but I don't want to have four computers all over the house. I'd also like to wait three months for the first errata and it wouldn't hurt to have 10.3.1 either.

The low end machine only supports 4GB RAM. And you know what? There are folks that - even if these "G5's" run circles around the current duals, [which are not 90% efficient, more like 50%], haven't used one even, and they are already complaining of all things!

Wait a year, and grab a PCI Express with 3GHz? NASA, NOAA, heck, even Ford engineers will want one! and Ford is very pro-Microsoft. Once they get one into a laptop (the alligator and shoe box trick?) it'll be a unix road warriors paradise come true.

06-23-2003, 12:37 PM
Go for it Gregory and hope it flys like a mofo.

I personaly don't need anything better atm, going to wait till everything is 64 bit, Apps and all. My DP1.25 G4 is treating my fine for now, and going to wait for that G5 3ghz model.

But i hope all you guys getting the G5 right away, it treats you good. let me know how amazing they are, so i can drool for one.

I still like the style case design of the G4 graphites (sawtooth my first mac), but this new design exterior doesn't apeal to me. But i'm really digging the interior of the G5. So god dam clean in there.

So good luck to you G5 guys, i'll be one someday too.

G4 1.25 DP (MDD/FW800) -- 1.25gig Ram -- 2x18gig SCSI -- 40gig & 80gig ATAs (all Seagates)
ATi Radion 9000 -- 21 Inch Apple Studio Display

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>It is not the power of the Raging Demon...but your past sins that will be your undoing<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

06-23-2003, 01:52 PM
Someone found hidden on Apple Store site a link (http://store.apple.com/1-800-MY-APPLE/WebObjects/AppleStore?family=G4) to single and dual 1.25's ($1299 and $1599) which are nice.

[This message was edited by Gregory on Mon June 23, 2003 PT at 16:53.]

06-23-2003, 02:24 PM
I love the rotating cube/multi user interface! I know, I know, eye candy, but can't wait to blow users minds with that!

Soooo. . .

Multiple, similtaneous users logged in. . .

. . . how far away is an App serving, Terminal Services crushing, mutli-user remote desktop serving feature (coated in sugary-Unix goodness and stability)? http://macgurus.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_cool.gif

Oh, to be free from M$ license hell! http://macgurus.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_mad.gif


Charlie Don't Surf!

06-23-2003, 02:35 PM
. . . And where is the G5 Xserve with SATA? How soon should we expect an upgrade to the Xraid to include SATA?


Charlie Don't Surf!

06-23-2003, 02:44 PM
Bad thing its online order only, and that sucks. but still a good price for it.

Also Macmall droped it price on the G4 1ghz model to $1,150.00 too.

G4 1.25 DP (MDD/FW800) -- 1.25gig Ram -- 2x18gig SCSI -- 40gig & 80gig ATAs (all Seagates)
ATi Radion 9000 -- 21 Inch Apple Studio Display

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>It is not the power of the Raging Demon...but your past sins that will be your undoing<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

06-24-2003, 06:35 AM
What a leap up the new G5 is. Have to sit on my credit card to keep sanity in my household. Wife would go nuts. Maybe in a year when the G5.1 3GHz arrives. k

06-24-2003, 07:48 AM
One thought is that the low-end 1.6 was the "rev 1' that they've been using and testing over the last 9 months with, that was a 1.4 probably, and why it only has PCI, not PCI-X etc and limited to 4GB RAM limited in a relative sense, but I think waiting is better. Put $100 a week into the cookie jar.

IBM is announcing a dual 1.4 for its IntelliStations today, then look at the enormous price tag! $20K.

I think one reason for August is they need more time to tweak the OS (10.2.7) and do more testing with the G5. The "Panther by end of year" is also being more realistic given the work ahead. And most IT projects are longer, harder, and flop 40% of the time. You can't expect to have an OS and nothing to run reliable on it. So Quark, Adobe, all the drive manufacturer's, drivers for devices... they all have to scramble. And let's hope that Apple makes owning a G5 very very atractive to its thousands of developers.

Some organizations would take a look-see at new hardware or new OS of 6-12 months. But both?

AMD wants to hit 3GHz by early 2004, 4GHz by late 2004, so it seems that Apple and AMD are on similar road maps.

06-24-2003, 08:58 AM
$2000 is half what my SE/30 cost.

Yowser! My 512 (bundled with M$Word and a pin printer) was $3000, I forget what I paid for the IIci, but the 9500/120 (first week it was out) was $5000. Oh yeah, and $1500 for a 20Mb HyperDrive hard-disk (installed) for the 512.

I remember the max configuration of the first (1975) mainframes I helped build was 4Mb of RAM, and that took two banks of full-height frames, each 9 feet long, 6 feet high, by 2 feet wide. Maxing out the 9500's RAM (err, 750Mb?) when it was new woulda cost $23K. Now look!

The world continues to change.


06-24-2003, 10:11 AM
So who around here IS going to get one, or at least thinking about it? k

06-24-2003, 10:33 AM
We have been putting off upgrading a couple servers for this, so I can say we will get a couple at work, but it may be a couple months (after they are actually shipping) before we pull the trigger.

Our email server (G4 450) is chugging along on a Gurus SCSI setup with almost 25 gigs of mail for 300+ users on it; it was about 6 gigs two years ago when it was still relatively current hardware. . .prime canidate for a new G5 with an external ultra 320 SCSI aray (from the soon-to-be-open new and improved Guru's speed shop!). If only www.firstclass.com (http://www.firstclass.com) has their stuff together so we can fianlly migrate to Jag/Panther...

Anbody heard even a rumble about 10.3 Server? That would be the other box I would like to update to a G5.

Plus our video guy is so giddy he now walking in circles and talking to himself. http://macgurus.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif


Charlie Don't Surf!

06-24-2003, 10:43 AM
By the time I figure in RAM and whatnot, I almost thought maybe the last of the OS 9 beasts might be smarter: dual, easier and fewer problems. Then again, I don't want to miss out on this either.

When I bought my B&W I was on a G3/7100, 136MB - and it hurt. I even had to use RAM Doubler9. It isn't that painful yet, more like having an itch to run some SATA RAID'd drives and just take it for a spin and see.

I will NOT hit on my CC this time. Cash & carry only.

06-24-2003, 11:42 AM
PCI-X..yummy! http://macgurus.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif Even the 100MHz slot can accomodate the FULL bandwidth from a Dual Ultra320 SCSI card..and have some leftover.

This is the first time since the 9600-days I would consider buying a brand-new Mac rather than waiting for used ones. Given my current financial situation though, it may be next year before I can afford one.

Wonder how hard it is to do ATX conversion with this motherboard? The oddly-placed PCI slots would probably be the biggest problem.

06-26-2003, 02:17 PM
The only thing Apple did that IBM never would have, they removed the L3 cache. I'm hoping that by the time they ship, once they see how performance is, or when they hit 2004 models, that the L3 cache is back.

Otherwise, why does IBM uses "gobs" of L3 on their Intellisation POWER4 workstations? Like 4MB per proc?

Maybe once they recoup the investment and R&D and have the OS tweaked and optimized it'll find its way back in. Sure, it has 512K L2 at 1:1.

I just don't like cutting corners.

And I hear IBM is working on G3's in the 1.0-1.4 GHz, while MOTO scrambles to get some G4's on 0.13 micron out the door. Are there enough G4's out there that there would be enough market just for upgraders?

06-28-2003, 05:12 PM
I've never heard anyone ever say to stay away from Crucial, or that cheap ram worked, let alone working better! Maybe there is/was something wrong with the motherboards in those?

I guess 1GB RAM is still so new that prices are higher than normal. And yes, $250 for 2 x 512MB isn't totally bad. I didn't realize PC3200 was slightly higher ($93 ea) while PC2700 is ~$75.

So you can fill it up with 8 x 512 for 4GB @ $720, or a pair of 1GB DRAM for about the same amount and have six slots free.

I'm having trouble finding 1GB though I read that it was sampled. Seems folks don't like the CAS2 timing is all.

I think this review (http://www.pcstats.com/articleview.cfm?articleID=1366) goes into the details. Early PC3200 was actually Samsung.
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>It's obvious that the memory is not catering to the whims of overclockers, Crucial has never spun their memory that way. Rather, this memory is better suited for those "mission critical" type users or for people who want to install and forget. Review dated 4-9-03 <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> JEDEC approved the PC3200 standard in Dec. 2002.

It would seem that Crucial hasn't had more than two months since showing engineering samples of PC3200. And they are not after the Extreme OC crowd.

IBM uses everything possible to catch memory errors in their systems, even mapping out bad addresses.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Envy News has posted a review of some Crucial PC3200 DDR SDRAM memory:

Today, I will be taking a look at two sticks of 256MB Crucial PC3200 DDR modules. These differ from the previously reviewed Crucial PC3200 DDR RAM in that these are the final revisions that no longer use the Samsung DRAM chips, but Micron?s own DRAM. The greatest advantage of not having a middleman in the manufacturing process is cost. Crucial offers low prices on all their modules with nearly 90% of all sales done through their website. Micron originally chose Samsung memory modules to supplement their own production until they could achieve sufficient yield to match consumer and corporate demand. www.anandtech.com (http://www.anandtech.com) 6-13-03

Envy News review (http://www.envynews.com/rev_print.php?ID=482) <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

06-29-2003, 11:30 AM
Macintosh in the land behind the 64-bit Looking Glass

Concludes with, <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> In a year's time, the next rev of G5, while officially not related to POWER5, is expected to have similar multithreading and improved FP throughput capabilities, while still keeping the low power of the current family. Combined with the compiler and software improvementd, the roadmap might give us the fastest desktop platform around - but will Apple make full use of it, or screw up a great opportunity as they did many times before?

The Inquirer (http://www.theinquirer.net/?article=10244) <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Great article and full of technical details missing in other reviews I've read so far.

07-01-2003, 06:25 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>IBM claims top benchmark in computer server wars

The IBM benchmark announcement came on the same day Intel and HP launched Madison, a 1.5-GHz version of Itanium 2 with 6 Mbytes of level-three cache. IBM claimed it had only finished its benchmark work at 5 a.m. Monday morning. "These guys will be going head-to-head in a long and interesting struggle," said Kevin Krewell, senior analyst with The Microprocessor Report. "Frequency, cache and a lot of other stuff you dial in all play a part in the performance game, but the more CPU cores per die is very key for the transaction-per-minute goal," he added.

Indeed, server bragging rights increasingly appear to fall to companies who do a better job delivering multi-threaded, multi-core architectures. On this trend line, IBM's Power looks set to stay ahead of Itanium, but could be surpassed by Sun over the next two years.

The Power4 uses a dual-core design, meaning the 16-CPU IBM system sported 32 processor cores compared to 64 single-core Itanium 2 chips in the HP Superdome system.

EETIMES (http://www.eetimes.com/sys/news/OEG20030630S0100)

07-01-2003, 07:18 AM

I saw that on Bare Feats. I checked the UL4D (UL3D/UL3S they say not PCI-X compatible) on ATTO's site and they say:

Accelerated PCI Bus Management:
?Ģ PCI-X bus master rate of 1 GB/sec.
?Ģ PCI-X 1.0a compliant
?Ģ PCI 2.2 and PCI 99 compliant
?Ģ 64-bit/133 MHz PCI-X (backward
compatible with standard PCI)

Downloaded the pdf specs document and the UL4D has 3 slits BUT requires:

?Ģ 0.75 typical/2.0 max. Amps @ + 5.0 VDC
?Ģ 0.05 Amps @ + 12.0 VDC

Ouch! So all that PCI-X compatibilty mentioned by ATTO must be for PC and never mind and no mention of the Mac G5 requirement for 3.3V DC. All this assuming Bare Feats is correct of course. Have not double checked that. k

07-01-2003, 08:00 AM
I looked at this chart (http://www.attotech.com/epciview.html) on ATTO products which doesn't really tell the whole story.

Having a discussion AYM bbs (http://bbs.xlr8yourmac.com/ubb/Forum28/HTML/000045.html) on the subject.

I've got to run, but I do want to look into this completely and probably talk to ATTO at some point.

07-01-2003, 08:15 AM
Hey G, just in case you missed it, wondered what your thoughts were about the following from macosrumors (http://www.macosrumors.com) :

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> The PowerPC 970 (G5) does not support L3 cache at all -- and for good reason. The backside cache memory used in G4 systems as L3 isn't cheap, and it is primarily used to bridge a slow frontside bus to a fast processor.

Because the G5 uses a frontside bus at half clock speed and fast single- or dual-bank DDR SDRAM memory, L3 cache is not needed or for that matter, particularly useful. Remember, the L3 cache on a G4 processor runs at only 1/4th the CPU speed! Even DDR L3 caches on the fastest G4 systems can barely keep up with the main memory on a G5. By eliminating L3 support from the processor, IBM simplified the chip design -- which reduces costs and improves performance over a chip which has to allocate space and transistors to L3 cache support.

As long as Apple keeps up with the latest high-performance memory technologies and the G5 family evolves as expected, L3 cache won't offer any performance advantage, and its elimination will help Apple keep costs down. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


Charlie Don't Surf!

07-01-2003, 08:32 AM

?That's a pretty concise analysis. Thanks.


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07-01-2003, 08:45 AM
You'll notice that IBM's $20K AIX IntelliStation using the POWER4 choose to use tons of that L3 cache.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
IntelliStation POWER 275 (http://www-1.ibm.com/servers/eserver/pseries/hardware/workstations/)
from $8,130.00 IBM Web price*
Monitor not included
IBM's newest, fastest UNIX workstation delivers twice the graphics performance of the popular RS/6000 Model 170 at a lower price!

Speed & reliability that will help you get those graphics intensive projects completed quicker, so you have more time to be creative.
? 1-way SMP with 1.0GHz or 1 2-way 1.45GHz POWER4+?Ѣ microprocessor
? 1.5MB L2 and 8MB ECC L3 cache
? Up to 16GB of ECC SDRAM memory with Chipkill
? Up to 4 Ultra3 SCSI hot-swap 10K or 15K RPM disk drives
? Six PCI-X adapter slots
? Gigabit Ethernet and audio adapter standard
? GXT4500P graphics accelerator standard
? GXT6500P graphics accelerator optional
? Support for GXT4500P or the GXT6500P 3D graphics accelerators
? IBM's CATIA V4 performance leader.

More info... POWER 275 workstation (http://www-1.ibm.com/servers/eserver/pseries/hardware/workstations/intellistation_275_desc.html#note2) <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I wrote a letter to macosrumors last night as soon as I saw that. I assume that Apple doesn't want to scare away customers or enroach on the $10K workstation market (8GB of DDR400 costs $4000+ right now), $350 for BTO top of line video. Doesn't use ECC Chipkill memory, and wants GHz, not the slow, reliable server grade cpus.

You will notice that IBM does use "loweer end" video for 3D than they could, letting the 1GHz fsb and cpu handle some of the workload - all without missing a beat.

You'll also see built-in support for ULtra160/320 - so you don't have to sacrifice one of your 6 PCI-X slots.

I really think some Mac users ought to consider switching... to IBM.

[This message was edited by Gregory on Tue July 01, 2003 PT at 11:30.]

07-01-2003, 12:37 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> I really think some Mac users ought to consider switching... to IBM <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

BITE YOUR TONGUE! http://macgurus.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

...And run Linux I suppose. What about that fabled Mac Xstation pro grade 10K quad 980 box that is supposed to be here by Xmas? http://macgurus.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_razz.gif


Charlie Don't Surf!

07-01-2003, 01:36 PM
The nice thing about AIX is the ability to slice and dice and run multiple OSs on one or more cpus. You can even "resize' a logical partition. So you can run two versions or copies of OS X (10.3 and 10.2.7 for instance) side by side on the same box, not just emulated.

Virtual machines, VM, or MVS, for the desktop. IBM has shown 1000 copies of linux running on its z390 mainframe or whatever it is nowadays.

Folks want L3 and 6 slot machines? Got 'em! Want a 256MB video card just for 3D? got that, too. 8GB ain't enough? no sweat!

Want 4 SCSI SCA 10K drives in there, well, why didn't you say so, we can do that.

I don't think $8K is that bad either. People moan about another $129 upgrade? Try $1000 maybe? some formula for how many boxes, cpus, cores, MHz proably. I think 10.3 is gonna be worth whatever.

07-01-2003, 04:10 PM
All is not lost, <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>tim_s
Member posted 07-01-2003 07:02 PM

3.3V PCI does not delete the 5V power rail. The 3.3V refers to signaling, not power supply. It is quite possible for a 3.3V PCI card to draw power from the 5V rail (and vice versa).

The rules of PCI voltage compatability, as best as I can summarize them briefly: There are two types of PCI host, 5V and 3.3V. There are three types of expansion card, 5V, 3.3V, and Universal. 5V cards can only plug into 5V host slots. 3.3V cards can only plug into 3.3V host slots. Universal cards are compatible with both 3.3V and 5V signaling and can plug into either kind of host slot.

The 5V and 3.3V mechanical keys are entirely contained within the 32-bit part of the PCI connector. 5V slots/cards are keyed at the end closer to the front of the computer. 3.3V slots/cards are keyed at the end closer to the rear of the computer. Universal cards have both keys milled into the connector. When examining a 64-bit card, be sure to not confuse the 5V and 3.3V compatability keys with the gap necessary for the 64-bit extension connector. AYM BBS <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

07-02-2003, 05:18 AM
For the moment, let's overlook what manufacturers say about PCI-X compatibility and whether a PCI card has three slits of not. I have been checking voltage signaling requirements for various cards I have as stated in their manuals. So far checked:

5V - Miles2, Miles, Bluenote
3.3V - Acard 6880M
Universal - zero

Now I know I have a Universal card somewhere, maybe one of my PCI video cards, Radeon or Voodoo 5 or ProFormance3+. Still checking manuals as well as searching for one of my UL3D manuals. I'm also checking for my Apple OEM/Adaptec Ultra Narrow docs for voltage. I do find it curious and perhaps telling that Apple no longer offers a SCSI high end card option for G5 nor an Ultra Narrow card for SCSI scanner, removables, etc. Anyway still checking. k

07-02-2003, 06:11 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>NEWS: A technology first set out in the early 1990s is set to finally make it to market by 2004. The replacement for the ailing PCI slot in PCs, called PCI Express, is set to offer superior bandwidth for component communications and a much simpler internal design.

Currently PCI runs at 133MHz (if your machine uses PCI-X); PCI Express will initially run at 2.5GHz, with a potential scale-up to around 40GHz. Simplification comes in the form of a serial connection. Currently, PCI slots use a parallel interface requiring many wires of the same length for each card. PCI Express uses a serial connection, meaning it only requires a single wire, with exact lengths not being an issue. Advantages of this approach include a reduction of wires and connectors by up to 60%, and a reduction in the size of the actual motherboard by up to 50%.

PCI Express is not just going to replace PCI as the standard inside machines. Work is also being done to create a version that allows the components of a PC to be split. For example, the processor and memory of a machine could be split from the rest of the machine and connected via a PCI Express wire connection. There is also interest from the networking market, which has already started producing products based on the tech.

Read more at ZDNet UK. (http://news.zdnet.co.uk/story/0,,t269-s2131043,00.html) More about PCI-X (http://news.zdnet.co.uk/story/0,,t269-s2125894,00.html) along with HyperTransport (http://news.zdnet.co.uk/story/0,,t269-s2129623,00.html)

It's about time this technology made it to market. The PCI slot has been a useful interface over the last several years, but started to show its age when the AGP slot was introduced to aid graphics card bandwidth. PCI Express should replace both of these technologies and open up the capabilities of the graphics card.

It's interesting that moving away from PCI will decrease complexity so much. With the increasing popularity of small PCs on mini-boards, this will be welcome for the home user especially. Decreased complexity also means decreased costs and more features being available in the same space. Manufacturers will be happy with the latter of those two options, of course.

Uptake may be slow with the corporate market, but as with most technology it will be the games players who carry the flag. Anything to make the next version of Quake run faster will be snapped up ... assuming that operating systems support it, and support it well.
PCI Express: Chipgeek <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

[This message was edited by Gregory on Wed July 02, 2003 PT at 8:43.]

07-02-2003, 06:24 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>IBM Power5 will be multicore and multithread

Like having 4 processors on a chip

By INQUIRER staff: Tuesday 25 February 2003, 11:10

THE WORLD OF BIG TIN will be much faster when IBM releases its new Power5 processor. The Power4 was dual core, effectively two processors on a chip. The Power5 64bit processor is still dual core but adds multithreading capabilities to both cores, according to Silicon Strategies.

Multithreading is the ability of a processor to run two or more parts of a program at once. This is the same as Intel's Hyperthreading technology in the Pentium 4 and Xeon processors. The Power5 will appear to the operating system as four processors, despite being a single chip.

This will come as interesting news to Apple fanatics too. IBM is producing a cut down version of the Power5 with just a single core. However, that single core should be capable of multithreading, another boost for Apple quite apart from the advantages of going to 64bit.

IBM has said that the Power5 prototypes are already meeting expectations. The processors are set to debut at speeds of 1.5GHz and higher. IBM has set the goal of achieving a four-fold increase in performance over the Power4 and all the signs are that it will hit that target.
INQUIRER (http://www.theinquirer.net/?article=7973) <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

07-02-2003, 07:06 AM
www.zdnet.com (http://www.zdnet.com)

The group responsible for maintaining the PCI standard for linking PC components announced on Wednesday that it is working on a new version that will double the speed of connections.

The PCI Special Interest Group (PCI-SIG), an industry consortium that includes representatives from Intel, Microsoft, Hewlett-Packard and other PC giants, said it has begun initial work to develop specifications for PCI-X 1066, the successor to the recent PCI-X 266 and PCI-X 533 specifications.

The newest standard will allow PC components to exchange data at bandwidths of up to 8.5 gigabytes per second, compared with less than 1 gigabyte per second for current versions.

PCI-X is expected to be the last stand for the PCI standard that has governed how PC components, such as network cards, communicate with the rest of the computer. story (http://news.zdnet.co.uk/story/0,,t269-s2125894,00.html)


There are currently no fewer than three additional PCI standards that will be proposed this year.

One standard, PCI-X, is aimed at expanding the PCI bus to provide more bandwidth between faster and faster peripherals. It will enable PCI to run at up to 133 MHz at 64 bits, compared to the current PCI standard that maxes out at 64 bits and 66 MHz. Most PCs only come with 32-bit 33 MHz PCI buses at this time, due to Intel and other PC chipsets only supporting a slower PCI standard and using AGP as the faster graphics pipe.

The other two standards are designed to shrink PCI cards for special applications. Mini-PCI can be used by laptop and specialty device manufacturers to allow interchangeable components, which should reduce the cost of laptops in the long run. Finally, Low-Profile PCI is being designed with newer, smaller machines in mind. When the height of Low-Profile PCI is standardized, you will be able to add Low-Profile PCI cards into especially small PCs that other PCI cards would be too tall for.

Read more at Reseller News.

Do we really need three new standards? PCI-X will be the powerful standard for servers and workstations. However, current PCs are saddled with the lame 32-bit 33 MHz PCI bus anyway, when we could be running at 66 MHz on a 64-bit bus. PCI-X may make a mark in high-end servers, but it won't be around for long. Intel, IBM, and others are working together to merge NGIO and FutureIO, two new I/O standards for servers. By the way, standard PCI cards should fit fine in PCI-X slots.

07-02-2003, 07:35 AM
From XLR8YOURMAC, <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>ATTO Comments on PCI card Compatibility with G5 PCI-X models - I was out from about noon until late last night but had written ATTO yesterday to ask if they could clear up the confusion over compatibility with their PCI SCSI cards and the new G5 systems with PCI-X slots (the upper 2 models have PCI-X slots, the low-end version does not). Here's their reply on the 5V/3.3V confusion and notes on compatibility:

"Mike- We've also noticed that the number of questions regarding 3.3V versus 5V PCI signalling have increased dramatically over the past several months. Within the past 3 months, several Wintel machines have released that are 3.3V-only PCI-X. Now Apple has joined the 3.3V only fray with the introduction of the G5. (1.8GHz and dual 2GHz models, 1.6GHz model has only standard PCI 33MHz/64bit slots-Mike)

Two things need to be considered to determine compatibility: motherboard slot and adapter slot. Motherboard PCI slots will typically be either 5V or 3.3V and are keyed as such. Our adapters are keyed for 5V only or have Universal connectors. We do not have any cards that are keyed for 3.3V only, but in the future that may change. Currently, the ExpressPCI DC and PSC cards are keyed for 5V and will work in any 5V PCI slot. However, since the G5 is 3.3V only, these cards will not fit in that system.

Our Ultra3, Ultra320 and all Fibre Channel adapters use Universal PCI connectors. So, these will work in either 3.3V or 5V PCI slots (or PCI-X slots, too, which are typically 3.3V). All of these cards will work in the existing Mac systems or the new G5.

Peter J. Donnelly
Product Manager, Host Adapters
ATTO Technology, Inc.

(He later wrote)

I am planning on putting together a tech note and posting it to our web site to better explain what works with what, but hopefully my abridged answer below helps explain things. If not, please let me know and I'll try to clarify. Also, when we release the tech note, I'll let you know so that you can link to it, if you'd like."


07-02-2003, 08:13 AM
From today's www.Geek.com (http://www.Geek.com) <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>The amount of L3 cache in these Madison chips will depend on the clock speed.

The 1.3GHz CPUs will have 3 MB of L3 cache and will cost US$1,338.
The 1.4GHz models will come with 4 MB of L3 cache and cost $2,247.
At the high end, the 1.5GHz models will come with 6 MB of L3 cache and cost $4,226 in lots of 1,000.

All these chips are using .13 micron technology and are quite large. They apparently contain a software program called "IA-32 execution layer" which should substantially increase the performance of Itanium CPUs running 32-bit code.

Since it takes approximately 50 transistors to store one byte of information in cache memory, Intel will need to devote about 300 million transistors just to the L3 cache of each 1.5GHz Itanium 2 chip. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

How to get around the 32/64-bit problem on Intel hardware that the PowerPC doesn't face or need.

07-02-2003, 09:00 AM
I wonder if I am the only one thinking about Apples pricing structure with the new machines? I am happy as heck about the new machines and I am not saying they are too expensive. Oh no. But, I want to go on record here and now as observing that the lesser machine they announced seems priced a bit too high. I say that because of past Apple patterns in marketing. For several generations now there has been an upper line at $3K - $3.5K. There has been a mid line machine at $2.4K - $2.6K and there has been a concerted effort to keep lowering the low end machine. Currently that is $1.5K - $1.7K.

I was surprised at the announced $1.995K price announced for the low end machine. I am thinking Apple is saying that to protect the machines still in their distribution pipeline. I am thinking that the bottom end machine should continue Apple's trends for price point grouping and retail for very close to the $1.5 - $1.7 price point. If I am right, they will miraculously lower the bar just as they are ready to ship. But certainly, by Christmas.

I believe that if Apple is serious about increasing market share, and I believe that is Job's stated priority, they have to keep their machines competitive with the PC market. Of course their upper machine is on top again but you can build a pretty durned kick but PC for about $800, I am told. Not that I am leaving the Mac but it's fair to point this out.

Just my 2 Cents. I still want the top end box though. For the first time since I bought my new IIsi for $2.2K at CompUSA,, I am ready to engage indebtedness, once again.

Ah, employment, wherefore art thou?


07-02-2003, 09:54 AM

Definitely caught me by suprise also. I've pointed out in the Memory FAQ how they are over-charging on the PC2700 DDR333 with prices more in line with DDR400. So maybe that will all change.

the G4/1.2 @ $1.3 would still leave room for G5/1.6 @ $1.7 and $200 would help me and make more sense. We'll have to see once September rolls around. I expect a bump before January, too.

07-02-2003, 01:06 PM
I can't see getting a 'wind tunnel' though the price is right. I don't want a 1.6 with 33MHz PCI slots. By the time you have the 1.8, its "only" another $500 for the dual.

Then I think, a G4/1000 for $499 (in 2-3 months) will give my Beige or B&W a nice boost to hold me over and get a speed fix.


So I tell myself to wait until December or 2004, right? I could pass up on all the QS/2002 and MDD and the DP500s and stuff with ease. Now I'm building a "war chest" to add 2GB RAM, dual 2.4GHz, ATTO UL4S, another Atlas 10K IV.

These are what I call "enticing" systems, that will only get better. And I'm itching for Panther to be released, too.

...and praying I don't need a couple root canals to dash my hopes.

07-03-2003, 03:52 AM
PowerMac G5 (pdf) (http://developer.apple.com/documentation/Hardware/Developer_Notes/Macintosh_CPUs-G5/PowerMacG5/PowerMacG5.pdf)

Developer Documentation (http://developer.apple.com/documentation/index.html)

07-03-2003, 06:09 AM
"...and praying I don't need a couple root canals to dash my hopes."

Or in my case several months ago breaking off two teeth on a duck bone. Dentist said that in my old age all of my teeth have stress cracks that a bone can break off. Cost over $6.5k to repair. A couple of G5s?

BTW, ATTO has a page on PCI-X compatibility already http://www.attotech.com/epciview.html and scroll to SCSI. I hope that page is wrong. k

07-03-2003, 06:17 AM
Update on my PCI card signal voltage check search:

5V - Miles2, Miles, Bluenote, Radeon Mac Edition (not 7000)
3.3V - Acard 6880M
Universal - zero

Voodoo 5 and ProFormance3+ manuals provide no information about voltage requirements. k

07-03-2003, 06:22 AM

I wonder if I should just pull all my teeth and go for wood or something? There is research going on to grow tooth enamel from stem cells. then again, I hope kids are lucky enough to have sealer on their first teeth, and the worst thing I did was use nicotine gum for a long time. It can dissolve teeth I think. FDA ought to pull that stuff off the market.

Ever had duck and bite into a shotgun pellet? that's another tasty tidbit.

Take a look at the thread on PCI-X? (http://bbs.xlr8yourmac.com/ubb/Forum28/HTML/000045.html) AYM bbs which linked to that ATTO page and was part of the concern. And, 18 months ago, I put my ATTO in the 66 MHz alot, then was told not, which was one reason I bought the 39160 which I use now and works great. tim_s is a wealth of engineering info and has been a big help over the years.

Also, for a look at some of Panther's add-on (like Activity Monitor check out http://www.macosxrumors.com

[This message was edited by Gregory on Thu July 03, 2003 PT at 8:42.]

07-03-2003, 08:19 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> Date: Thu, 3 Jul 2003 02:31:07 -0700
From: Norm LeMieux
Subject: G5 PCI-X slots

Frederico should use the PCI spec's "Universal" term, as Apple also uses it to describe the "three 'slits' in the appropriate spots ".

Simplified, 32b PCI cards have four power rails (+5V, +12V, -12V, and +3.3V) and one signaling rail (Vio). The latter is what determines what kind of card can be attached and the connector (cardedge receptacle) is rotated appropriately. If the motherboard attaches these pins to +5V, then the connector is rotated with a key towards one end; if +3.3V, then the key is at the other end. Cards that are +5V-only have a "slit" in the cardedge (gold-plated fingers) which matches the +5V key; +3.3V-only cards have the slit in the opposite side to match with the rotated key.

A Universal 32b PCI card has two slits and can accept either voltage. In all cases, 64b cards have another slit "above" the standard 62x2 32b pins. Only a Universal 64b card would have/need three slits.

As Apple states, the three PCI-X slots will accept either +3.3V OR Universal cards; and NOT +5V cards.
G5 Report (http://www.macintouch.com/g5reader.html#jul03) <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

07-03-2003, 08:52 AM
Another curious thought, heretofor left unsaid is, what if Apple is revising it's entire line with this new chip? I am remembering specualtion on the many rumor sites before the G5 announcement. I am inclined to think that, yes, Apple is going over to IBM and leaving MOTO behind. If so then APple probably doesn't want the low end G5 to sit too near the unrevamped-as-yet iMacs, iBooks and emacs. It would get a lot harder to plunk down $1700+ for a sexy new 17" iMac even at G4/1000, when a new monster Mac 64 bit breather was sitting, quietly snarling, at near $1500.


07-03-2003, 10:00 AM
You can already get a G4/1.25DP for $1595, or SP for $1295, and some places offer 512MB RAM with that. iMac has $450 LCD, low noise, style, different markets.


Crucial has no plan to offer a 1GB PC2700. However, some think we will see a 2GB DDR400 and that there is support for 16GB RAM (sort of like saying the Beige G3 only supports 3 x 128MB RAM was).

Original estimates were for a G5 1.4 on the low end, and maybe that could have been the $1599-1699 priced model, only yields were better.

Pixar wants these babies as soon as possible.

Solving the MDD heat and noise was hard or next to impossible.
Quad-channel DDR400 to boost memory.
G5 2.4's before year's end.
Death of the Beige G3 on Panther.

All of which makes it hard to know which model and when. The later the better... and don't dip into the warchest but DO pay off that credit card, you'll need it post-MWSF 2004.

Okay, I'm taking bids now on my G5/1.6 and Blue G3. If I buy the lowend G5 now, sell it in 2004 for one grand (2GB RAM extra).

07-03-2003, 01:25 PM
Thanks for all of those links Gregory. And BTW, go for that low end G5. k

07-05-2003, 03:13 AM
Hidden in the new G5 Dev Manual (Technical Overview) is "...future support for 2GB DDR... and support for 16GB." Hopefully, the price will come down from $1K it is right now.

Another tidbit, unplug the A/C when installing or removing PCI cards.

Don't remove RAM while on. (There is a little red light next to RAM slots to show there is power going to them).

Don't open the side door and remove the plastic wall or it will interfere with the system's cooling and fans will go into high gear.

Internal SCSI drives are not supported, only external. Huh? What's that about? http://macgurus.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

07-20-2003, 07:22 AM
A look at the G5 test results that had everyone shouting 'fowl.'


07-24-2003, 05:47 PM
&gt;G5 / 970

On Register, they mention IBM plan to sell Quad 970 server for US$ 3500.
Genesi SARL had announced Pegasos 3 machine with 970 (Early 2004).
Pegasos 3 will use Marvel chipset. Another secret 970 project is AmigaTwo
from Eyetech with Mai Logic chipset. The above machine will use Linux 64
bit PowerPC, however the machine can run OS-X using MacOnLinux


The cost of Quad Xeon (32 bit) from PC vendors (Tyan, SuperMicro)
is approx. US$ 3000. The Quad Opteron (64 bit) from Newisys is cheaper.

Can Apple 970 products compete with other 64 bit machines?

08-03-2003, 04:46 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>IBM should start producing 90nm PPC970 in November. They are still working to solve the last problem related to 90nm process, and they should be able to produce it in large volume end of January 2004. This processor will have 2 advantages when compared to the current PPC970:

- It should reach 2.8GHz max before to be replaced by the PPC980
- it will be for sure the first 64bit processor to be install in a portable computer.

This info fits with other ones and indicates a possible date for the PowerBook G5 around February/March 2004.

www.hardmac.com (http://www.hardmac.com) 8/3/2003 <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Sounds like waiting might be better. Smaller, cooler, lower wattage.

08-03-2003, 12:15 PM
...but you have to be an ADC member with hardware assets in your account. http://macgurus.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

That sure is the right price! slower 333MHz memory bus, only has 33 MHz PCI slots, no dual (but with rumors that Apple could add the option to encourage people to buy more low-end models, the idea of offering 1.8 duals, why not 1.6 duals also?).

Why not all models offered as either SP or DP?