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Diq
02-25-2002, 05:06 AM
I don't know whether to label this as a Beige / OS X issue, but the more I deal with it, the more it looks like X hates my Beige G3 All in One. I installed X from CD onto a new HD with no problems in December. Shortly after I installed the OS, I reattached my original HD as the master to my stock cd-rom. You may be wondering why I didn't make my original HD the slave to my new one, but if you've ever seen the inside of an All in One, you'll understand the space constraints that are inherent here. Anyways.
After using X with no problems for quite some time, I felt it was time to reinstall it in order to optimize it from the start using the knowledge of the OS that I'd gained from using it for so long. So I pop the CD in, select it as the startup disk, restart and... all I get is the open firmware screen printing over and over "no bootable HFS partition" for about 4 lines, then I get dropped into 9.2, and now my cd-rom and HD on the same IDE channel aren't mounted, or found. I restart 9, try my OS 9 cd, which boots up fine, 8.6, 8.1 same thing, no problem booting from the CDs. But whenever I try to boot 10.1 from the CD, it always drops me into open firmware and then reverts back to 9.2 without mounting the cd-rom or HD.
I figured that maybe 10 didn't like starting up from a slave drive, so I reset the jumpers on the cd-rom as the master drive, detached the HD from the channel, reset the cables, press the CUDA button for 30 seconds, start up into 9.2 and 10.1 with no problems. So I put the 10.1 cd in the drive, select it as the start up drive, and restart. Smae thing as before.
Does this mean I need to update the open firmware for my cd-rom (can this be done, I've never messed with open firmware before)? Which doesn't seem right because I installed 10 from the cd in the first place. So is this 10.1 not liking my beige G3? Any ideas?

Thanks in advance,
Diq

dragon_x
02-25-2002, 10:08 AM
Support for the beigeG3s (gossamer board) is in beta at best. While some people do not have any issues - all to many people do have issues. There is even a lawsuit out against Apple because of their lack of support.

I had issues with a beigeG3 and X. I had two IDE/ATA drives (master/slave) plus the IDE/ATA CD-ROM. With the second drive it would not boot into X. I think I might have been able to install it... or maybe I did not even get that far. The hardware setup works fine in classic MacOS.

Not much help - I do not have a lot of experience with X on beige.

------------------
The Cost Of Freedom:
Every bit of energy.
Every ounce of courage.
Every drop of blood.

Diq
02-25-2002, 10:24 AM
I had heard rumors about the iffy nature of OS X's support of the beige model, and had even read a few articles about the lawsuit you mentioned. I guess I just find it strange that my stock cd-rom is acting up like this, but if you've had troubles with your IDE configuration in the beige with X, maybe I'm seeing similar symptoms just in relation to my cd-rom as apposed to your HD issues. perhaps someone else might know something else along these lines.

Diq

TZ
02-25-2002, 11:01 AM
There is a note on the front page of www.xlr8yourmac.com (http://www.xlr8yourmac.com) about a user getting the 7000 to work on the beige w/ OS X. - Gregory

Diq
02-26-2002, 12:58 PM
well, what really seems to be the issue here is a firmware incompatability. 10 booted fine off of the CD when I installed it, but since then I can't convince it to boot off of the disk. Does X automatically update firmware? And if so, would it do so on my cd-rom? Thanks for the help dragon, gregory.

Diq

dragon_x
02-26-2002, 02:34 PM
I am not sure the 'firmware' of the beigeG3s can be upgraded. I know there were several upgrades for the B&WG3s... I think X messes with the NVRAM settings. In the few times I have had to mess with beigeG3s and X it seems Zapping the PRAM/NVRAM fixes any issues caused by X.

I am also foggy on the ROM/Firmware/NewWorldOrder that Apple has. I know the vintage PCI Macs (and older) have a 'bootROM' that contains much of the OS and info on the hardware on the machine. I know the BeigeG3s (and similar models) had ROM in RAM. I am not sure where the Blue&White Macs stand and then there are the Sawtooth G4s (and newer) that have new world roms - or something like that.

ANYBODY know how to spell this out in simple, easy and fast terms?

I need a cure for the ROM confusion! http://www.macgurus.com/ubb/confused.gif

TZ
02-26-2002, 04:25 PM
So yes, an OS X install will modify the nvram (OpenFirmware) variables, and which zapping pram will also clear and require rerunning UUX 2.11 etc.

From the Darwin list (http://www.opensource.apple.com/bugs/X/BSD/2782739.html):

"We will need to release, in some binary form or otherwise, the fake System file used during snag booting and used to reset nvram patches if PRAM is zapped. "bless" will (soon) be able to write this into the wrapper (like the CD) or you can dump it into the blessed system folder (like an installed Mac OS X partition). The wrapper method allows the main filesystem to only have a single file (BootX) with a resource fork. The system folder method is a little less obscure - you be the judge.

We will also need to break out the boot block code from inside the System file to be a standalone file, since we have no Carbon file manager to extract the resource.

The thing that's in flux is adding the BootX XCOFF as a StartupFile. I have this working using MediaKit, which is what will go into a future release of Mac OS, but unless MK gets open sourced real fast, we may need to pull in code from the community to do this." - OpenSource Darwin/BSD/X support list <GMT12-Oct-2001 05:52:57GMT>

Startup Disk 9.2.1 to make new volume "Darwin" bootable, installes OF nvramrc patches as well

Stock Beige G3 Mini-tower Rev. 1 (Gossamer), no CD, 6GB HD, 96MB OF 2.0f1 reports "No bootable HFS partition"
-----------------------------------

Take a look at ADC article on Boot Sequence (http://gemma.apple.com/techpubs/macosx/Essentials/SystemOverview/BootingLogin/The_Boot_Sequence.html)
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> BootROM

When the power to a Macintosh computer is turned on, the BootROM firmware is the first code activated. BootROM (which is part of the computer's hardware) has two primary responsibilities: to initialize system hardware and to select an operating system to boot. BootROM has two components to help it carry out these functions:

мя POST (Power-On Self Test) initializes some hardware interfaces and verifies that sufficient RAM memory is available and is in a good state.
мя Open Firmware initializes the rest of the hardware, builds the initial device tree (a hierarchical representation of devices associated with the computer), and selects the operating system to use.

BootROM is identical on Mac OS 9 and Mac OS X systems.


BootX

When BootROM (or the user) selects Mac OS X as the operating system to boot, control passes to the BootX booter (located in /System/Library/CoreServices). BootX's principal duty is to load the kernel environment. As it does this, BootX draws the "booting" image on the screen.

When loading the kernel environment, BootX first attempts to load a previously cached set of device drivers (called an mkext cache) for hardware that is involved in the boot process. If this cache is missing or corrupt, BootX searches /System/Library/Extensions for drivers and other kernel extensions whose OSBundleRequired property is set to a value appropriate to the type of boot (for example, local or network boot). See the kernel developer documentation for more on the OSBundleRequired key and the loading of device drivers during booting.

Once the kernel and all drivers necessary for booting are loaded, BootX starts the kernel's initialization procedure. At this point, enough drivers are loaded for the kernel to find the root device. Also from this point, Open Firmware is no longer accessible.

After the root file system is mounted, the kextd daemon is started during system initialization (see "System Initialization" ). It examines all the drivers available on the system and unloads any unnecessary drivers, freeing up memory. From this point onward, kextd attempts to fulfill any requests for loading kernel extensions.

Kernel Initialization

In this phase, the kernel initializes the Mach and BSD data structures and then initializes the I/O Kit. The I/O Kit links the loaded drivers into the kernel, using the device tree to determine which drivers to link. Once the kernel finds the root device, it roots BSD off of it.

Finally, the kernel starts the mach_init process, the first process in user space. The mach_init process is the Mach bootstrap port server, which enables Mach messaging.


System Initialization

The mach_init process starts the BSD init process. This latter process, which has a process ID (PID) of 1, "owns" every other process on the system. Despite its centrality, the init process is simple. It performs four principal tasks:

1. It determines if the user wants single-user mode or is booting from a CD-ROM. If either of these conditions apply, an advisory is printed and control is handed over to the user.
2. It runs the system-initialization shell scripts-/etc/rc.boot and /etc/rc-which complete basic initialization tasks; for details, see "The rc.boot and rc Scripts" .
The /etc/rc script runs the SystemStarter program, which handles more specialized initialization tasks specified as "startup items"; for details, see "Startup Items" .
3. Via the getty command, init launches the loginwindow application, which displays the login window, validates entered user names and passwords, and completes the login procedure; for details, see "The Login Procedure" .
4. As the parent of all processes, init handles all necessary cleanup of processes as they terminate. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Taken from Inside Mac OS X: System Overview (http://gemma.apple.com/techpubs/macosx/Essentials/SystemOverview/) on-line html or PDF version (http://gemma.apple.com/techpubs/macosx/Essentials/SystemOverview/SystemOverview.pdf)

Hope that helps.

Gregory



[This message has been edited by Gregory (edited 26 February 2002).]

Diq
02-27-2002, 07:17 PM
Ok so what I gathered from your posts is that installing X changes the open firmware, which seems to be causeing my cd-rom to not want to boot my X cd. Also, zapping the pram should reset the OF settings

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> and which zapping pram will also clear and require rerunning UUX 2.11 etc.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

So with that in mind, I attempted to set my startup disk to the X cd, retart, zap pram (heard 3 bongs), let it go and see if it would start from the CD. Unfortunately, it dropped me into 9.2 without showing me the OF screen at all. So I tried again, this time, after I zapped the pram, I held down the "c" key to force it to boot from the cd-rom. This time, it got past OF, but stalled on the smiling mac image, which I believe is what is referred to in that article as BootX,

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>When BootROM (or the user) selects Mac OS X as the operating system to boot, control passes to the BootX booter (located in /System/Library/CoreServices). BootX's principal duty is to load the kernel environment. As it does this, BootX draws the "booting" image on the screen.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

So now, I seemingly can get past the Open Firmware issue, but am now getting stuck on BootX, maybe a little more tinkering will show something new.

Another article at the darwin list here (http://www.opensource.apple.com/bugs/X/Core%20OS/2761605.html) that mentioned the same "no HFS partition found." I wonder what the relationship is between their situation of getting this error on the stock HD, and mine getting it on the stock CD-ROM. My os X partition is installed on a new HD and has never shown any of these startup issues like the beige G3 described in the artcle. Hmmmm perhaps a new cd-rom would be the key. Any thoughts?

One last thing, Gregory, you mentioned UUX 2.11 which I have not used to get X to work on my machine. Is this not normal, I thought that while X support of Beige models is in its Beta stages at best, it would still work on a Beige model without using UUX, which at least for me it does.

Thanks for all the great info Dragon and Gregory,
Diq

[This message has been edited by Diq (edited 27 February 2002).]

TZ
02-27-2002, 07:51 PM
I wish I had a beige g3 here to play with. There are so many messages on the Apple Discussion Mac OS X that lack a clear "if... then" to cut through to the "how... why" needed.

This is my guess, and only a guess.

* Zapping the pram makes it harder to boot OS X but helps get back into OS 9 if the Option key doesn't.
* Booting from the OS X Install CD is enough to modify Openfirmware - which is good.
* setting the system to boot in 'verbose mode' (command + v) would let you see what is happening (standard *nix or DOS like)

The first time I used OF it was like DOS with directory tree listings only written in Forth (used back on CP/M days).

Stripping a system down. Reverting to original and slower CDROM, whatever it takes. Because the beige 'acts' like its unsupported, and XPostFacto can be used on newer machines to add "oldworld support" (there is an OS X pkg even so once booted those extensions can be added).

I've got a 7300 that has me totally challenged as well because I feel that "if others can install X, incl. Ryan even, on 7300, why not me?) Improper termination? doesn't like the U2 card? original Radeon PCI? it says "APPL, 7500" and refuses to go any further.

It probably can't hurt to give UUX a shot in the long shot it might get the system to boot.

I took a usable drive from B&W and put it on the 7300, but when I tried to boot OS X off the drive, or off the OS X CD, it rendered the drive "invisible" and never again showed up - anywhere. Can't just take an OS X installation on NewWorld and boot from vintage PCI PMac. And Darwin won't be any easier. SuSe Linux 7.3 will quite well though ;(

Gregory

TZ
03-03-2002, 12:42 PM
...talking to myself again...

We all talk about 'blessing' a system. If you are running OS X, type 'man bless' in terminal. Better yet, get a little program "Man Open" that formats man pages nicely and easy to navigate and use http://www.clindberg.org/projects/ManOpen.html

DESCRIPTION
The bless command modifies on-disk an Open Firmware-based
parameters used during the boot sequence. It allows fold-
ers the be "blessed" in the volume header, which allows OF
to find the loader program (usually BootX). bless also
sets Open Firmware variables to boot off the volume speci-
fied.

Gregory

ricks
03-03-2002, 12:59 PM
Hey Greg,

Magician's going to need more bandwidth if we all start talking to ourselves here, ha http://macgurus.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

I am absolutely, once again amazed at the stuff you're putting together. Thanks.

You ought to be the one writing a book about OSX.

Rick