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jacob
10-09-2003, 10:42 AM
the rumors were true-- they are not offering an upgrade path for existing os x server customers.
So those stupid little blue tickets will sit in a manilla folder, along with all the other ones.

And now the question is, should we form a class-action lawsuit, since the rampant permission problems, and other major flaws in the product, leave us with no choice to pay their extortion?

http://forums.macgurus.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_mad.gif

ricks
10-09-2003, 11:16 AM
?Ya know, more effective than that has been popular uprising where thousands of users band together to jump up and down on the big dude's head. A website to promote it and a cause is all it takes and Apple has been known to back down on a fairly regular basis.

?The places to promote it are the new sites like MacInTouch, Observer............

Rick

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ricks
10-09-2003, 11:17 AM
?And besides, ya don't need no bloomin lawyers that way!

R

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unclemac
10-09-2003, 12:25 PM
Right. Keep the laywers out at (almost) all costs.

I fully understand Apple wanting to charge $$$ for the new features, and as I think it was TZ pointed out, it is a good value compared to other server software... They should, they will and Server has great potential to be a great(er) product.

However, I think they should offer patches for the serious issues for each current version. Afterall, schools, small and midsize businesses are the most likely customers. If Apple wants to make progress in these markets, they have to make everything Solid and work tirelessly to debug/patch.

10.2 server is pretty usable IMHO. The permissions issues that we have experienced are more of a nusance than being a serious problem; the previous problems in 10.1.5 were serious and made it almost unusable. And the fix was buy the next version. That's just wrong.

I was going to say it's just as bad as if M$ or Adobe did it, but in some ways I think it is worse:

I expect better from Apple.

__________________

Charlie Don't Surf!

[This message was edited by unclemac on Thu October 09, 2003 PT at 13:38.]

TZ
10-09-2003, 12:28 PM
Given the flaws with 10.2.8, iCal and other updates, I'm not sure how many should go where the fruit leads and act like lemmings.

Then again, the fees so far haven't reached the point of charging for number of cpus, users, and other points that other servers use to access charges - yet.

----------

You're right, with Apple, we expect more. And I would expect them to offer support for Jaguar Server for another year while, and until, they get all the bugs worked out of Panther, and not expect folks to upgrade until 10.3.5 or so, or next year at this time (seeing how it took a year to get Jaguar fixed, better graphics, etc).

The original 10.2.8 update killled ability to run FSCK of all the blasted things! The reposted version brought it back - but not on first reboot. So, I was unable to even get into single user mode, and req'd repairing permissions FROM 10.2.8, not from command line at startup.

I think Apple has gotten sloppy or trying to put too many fruity features into their Home Edition and not keeping their sights on being Pro OS.

Hit the Apple Server Discussion area. Ask for support for Jaguar to fix some nagging bugs. No IT manager or dept worth their salt (and soul) would deplay NT4 or something or 2000 until after it was tested, had at least one Service Pack at least under the belt.

[This message was edited by TZ on Thu October 09, 2003 PT at 13:37.]

unclemac
10-09-2003, 02:51 PM
All this talk got me to thinking it was time to go see if 10.2.8 (or anything else) fixes the existing permissions issue... have not followed up in months. Check this:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> Don't give your users admin rights to the server. Make sure you have HFS+ volumes shared using AFP. Make sure to select: inherit permissions from parent, in Workgroup Manager.

So, to clarify again. Don't use an administrator account to copy the files to the new server. Never use an administrator account to copy files from a workstation to the server, because the permissions will not inherit correctly. I have normal user accounts (no admin rights) set-up for all users including myself. I use a separate administrator account for administering the server through the server tools. Always use the normal user accounts for day-to-day use and for moving files around.

When everything is set-up as it should be the permissions WILL WORK but they WILL NOT display correctly when viewing them in the get info dialogue box on workstations. This is a known bug. They will display correctly when looking at the files directly on the server though.

I hope this helps. I experienced all of the permissions problems that you guys are talking about and was pulling my hair out. I'm sleeping better now that I understand what the issues are and how things work exactly. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

At the bottom of this thread (http://discussions.info.apple.com/webx?14@247.hMgaaoLvgFs.2@.59996fe4).


I know one of our users had admin access. Will test and post back if it helps...

__________________

Charlie Don't Surf!

TZ
10-10-2003, 05:29 AM
I use to think Apple's price on OS was reasonable but this got me to add up the cost, and the OS alone, with Panther, would be close to $499 - and its gotten this close to being what I expected from it. Let alone costs in software upgrades (sometimes update fees for 10.0, 10.1, and 10.2 - with maybe a little enhancement and features thrown in), while developers and vendors learn their way with Cocoa programming, and now, learning how to optimize for the G5 architecuture. And then there is the hardware.

Would Mac users swallow the Home Edition vs. Pro Edition or Server Edition if the price was more realistic and wasn't more like a yearly lease-renewal fee, which is what I see it as now?

In 5 years down the road, how many full versions and lay down how much $$$? $650 just for the Home Edition?
http://forums.macgurus.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_confused.gif

[This message was edited by TZ on Fri October 10, 2003 PT at 6:37.]

ricks
10-10-2003, 10:56 AM
?Look how many people just skipped 10.2 entirely and are making their fist upgrade from 10.1 to 10.3. Apple does need to make money, but they also need to differentiate themselves from Micro$hafts deplorable hijacking of its customers wallets.

Rick

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TZ
10-10-2003, 11:29 AM
We're paying for beta. For untested releases.

No one tested whether you could run FSCK on reboot w/o repairing permissions. Or that the first install wouldn't allow you to even if you did all that.

Q&A has slipped. We've got G5's with bad RAM slots. Let alone vendors selling memory that is only coded in SPD 18-19 byte for ONE CAS latency code it seems.

It's not cheaper. It is $130 per year. $1300 in ten years. Unless you buy a new system within... 30 days? or its a G5. It is "free" but $20 s/h.

I use to derride people for complaining about OS update and price. Not when I've been stuck dealing with beta software for three yrs and waiting for companies to get their Cocoa code and methods straight (inlcuding Alladin for Stuffit 8, good idea done wrong, I don't like 8.01, and I don't like many of the installers).

I was a programmer. Pay 'em well, they deserve it. And too many are under too much time pressure as well as forced to hurry. Too often I've seen a "we are shipping Monday, so you have just the weekend to find any bugs."

Finding bugs is a matter of chance and luck too often. Not a science at all.

IBM wrote a paper on how 80% of the time and cost is in fixing, fixing the fixes, dealing with bugs. Software development is better, but it is complex and the cost to business can't be ignored.

$500 is the cost to me for Panther. I knew 10.1 was crappy code. I knew that Jaguar used new compiler. I also know that IBM showed that there can be a huge 40% improvement using even better compilers.

jacob
10-15-2003, 05:37 AM
great thread. I was away for a few days and was surprised by the activity.
I have been using apple since its introduction, and buying for my business for 7 years.
It is amazing that Apple has become so CORPORATE over the last few years in their treatment of the client base. Right about the time of the massive ad campaigns, when they started going after consumers like my mother, they realized it wasn't financially worthwhile to cater to the mac geeks even the return clients for that matter.
Make it fast, cheap and work the bugs out later.
It used to be that buying the first releases of their hardware was wise, as they would be less buggy than the follow-up mass-produced units. Now it is clear, you ought to wait...and wait some more to avoid problems (like the g5 ram issue mentioned, the power supply problem from the recent g4 series...).

TZ
10-15-2003, 06:57 AM
Apple is making it clear, too, which I support, that you now need a license for EACH computer, whether laptop or desktop, they each need their own copy. So I expect to see more Family Packs sold.

I tend to experiment with OS X on beige before committing anything to my B&W. Before that, I'd try something out on 7300 but stopped trying to use it. I guess with a G4/800 it could act as a test horse.

But I still want CD updates. Mozilla offers all their releases now on CD for $3.95 or yearly subscription for $12.95. No strings attached. Apple owes to get OS X Panther adopted to offer the same, so anytime Apple has, say, 10.3.1 or 10.3.9, the CD will be here in 10 days.

Adoption of OS X has been slow. I expect most are broadband users, too. If I wanted my Dad to update or install Mozilla (15MB download) he'd never do it. Now, just sign him up for the subscription service.

I hope Apple offers updates to Safari for Jaguar, or will it have in system requirements "10.3+" ?