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MadDog
01-09-2001, 09:41 PM
Well, any of you Gurus going to spill the beans on your impressions of the new CPU upgrades ?

Mad Dog

Dogstarman
01-09-2001, 11:14 PM
Yeah, really. I know the sweat must have totally saturated those XLR8 docs in Magician's hands by now. So let the cat out of the bag. The cards look super-spiffy and I hear (read Kaye's post) that they run in vintage machines just fine. Seem to take the Umax approach where processors can be of different speeds, too. Nice touch for us not likely to drop the whole amount of dough so we can get that new G4 with a CDRW/DVDRAM drive. Yikes. It's going to be a rice and beans year for me.

magician
01-10-2001, 01:54 AM
we should be ready to post pricing for Carrier 2.0 sometime today....and begin shipping.

CarrierMPe, meaning Carrier 2.0 with an MPe G4 ZIF premounted, will be a little while. I need to talk to disty to see when they are coming in.

as for Velocity....I'm not aware that XLR8 has actually mentioned a ship-date yet, so I can't, either. In fact, all I've seen are three press releases....

today should see some more clarification of all this stuff, I think.

magician
01-10-2001, 05:53 PM
ok...just posted Carrier 2.0. aka Carrier MPe.

looks like realistic ship-dates for CarrierZIF MPe and Velocity will be around March.

Fletcherism
01-10-2001, 06:35 PM
OK, I've looked to see if anyone's discussed this recently, but can't find anything, so I just gotta ask...

The bug where you can't use PCI cards in the lower three slots of six-slot machines with a G4- has XLR8 said anything about fixing that with the Carrier MPe? Has anyone ever speculated on whether or not fixing that bug would mean fixing the Carrier or fixing the ZIFs? Or both?

Dogstarman- I can't find Kaye's post that you refer to- which one was that?

Dogstarman
01-10-2001, 08:42 PM
From the Macworld SF forum...

Kaye says, "XLR8 took good care of me. I called from Moscone, spoke with Jack Kolk, and he told me to come on over, though they were booked up with press for the whole day. I met Jack and Dave Marsden, and Dave went thru the MP stuff that I was interested in. They had various machines, vintage on up, with xlr8 dual G4 processors. Would not sell me one yet. Dave gave me the press kit with the details."

Really a good read.
http://www.macgurus.com/ubb/Forum17/HTML/000056.html

Louie
01-10-2001, 09:25 PM
That "lower three slots" thing goes back several months. I never heard that it was fixed.

magician
01-11-2001, 01:57 PM
it's a G4 thing, not a Carrier thing.

I think they have focused on MPe to the exclusion of all else in the past weeks. Jack Kolk did tell me that they would prioritize the lower 3-slot problem after the show.

Tyrosmurf
01-17-2001, 04:49 PM
What about a 9600/233 motherboard compatability with the velocity MPe? I've heard the Mach 5 is better, but I'm not sure why. http://www.macgurus.com/ubb/confused.gif Did anything in Kaye's info. package shed any light? http://macgurus.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

[This message has been edited by Tyrosmurf (edited 20 January 2001).]

magician
01-17-2001, 11:06 PM
ok, let's get Darin in here to give us the party line. I'll page him.

01-17-2001, 11:51 PM
There's only so much I can say before a product ships, but the lower three slot issue is being addressed. Whether or not it will be completely overcome has yet to be determined. As Mag said, it's a G4 thing, and from I have been told by our engineers, trying to work around this issue is a serious mofo.

There will be *some* software utility that will scan the PCI busses and aid in configuring a working setup.

Let me find out if I can tell any more and I'll post more tomorrow. Hang in there guys. Honestly, it's Mac fanatics like you all that make this gig fun for me and I'm honored to be able to serve you.

Tyrosmurf
01-18-2001, 03:15 AM
If they beat the pci bug and put dual 800s in a 9600?! I'll http://macgurus.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif http://www.macgurus.com/ubb/dance.gif http://macgurus.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif http://www.macgurus.com/ubb/dance.gif http://macgurus.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

PENDRAGON18
01-18-2001, 08:01 AM
Didnt Newer Tech fix the 6-slot G4 issue? Maybe XLR8 could buy Newer - or what is left of them. I wunder if the S900 is affected? Since it only has 1 PCI controller.

I think the Max speed of a dual G4 config in a vintage mac (3 or 6 slots) is 450Mhz, unless XLR8 gets some of Sonnets 'FORSITHIMO' bus doubling technology.


--WAIT-- Did someone mention somewhere that the new 7450 has a 16x mulitiplier????

Strange - the G4e+ can be about what 50 to 100% faster than a regular G4 per Mhz - running at 16x50=800Mhz - maybe we get 1MB of one die L1 cache and 2MB of backside L3 cache running at 3:2 on each processor? I think we would need it.

[This message has been edited by PENDRAGON18 (edited 18 January 2001).]

Dogstarman
01-18-2001, 02:34 PM
Sonnet bought out the brains behind Newer, so maybe that is our best hope. I knew they were working on the issue...did they fix it?

And yes, the current run of G4's (I think) only support 9x bus speed.

jeff walther
01-18-2001, 05:32 PM
I found a table on Motorola's web page which listed a summary of processor characteristics for 603s, 750 series and 7400 series. I thought that it had the new 7450 on there, but I guess it doesn't after all. Here's the URL: http://e-www.motorola.com/collateral/PPCCPUSUMM.pdf. Hopefully they'll update the document for the new processors soon.

magician
01-18-2001, 06:38 PM
my understanding is that Newer claimed to have fixed the problem, but in reality further engineering was required. I could be wrong. I hear all kinds of wacky stuff here.

I suspect this issue will be resolved shortly, as who else is going to want to buy dual G4's from XLR8 but owners of six slot Power Macs? I mean, think about it. They have to fix it.

right?

http://macgurus.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

PENDRAGON18
01-19-2001, 12:00 AM
Hopefully with the Cali-grid in flux http://www.macgurus.com/ubb/eek.gif TRIPP LITE will sell a TON of UPS system and enable XLR8 to come out with some KILLER hardware. TRIPP is the parent of XLR8, right?

Didnt Mike Breeden run some tests with G4's on 6 slot macs?
I know the first run of G4's was more or less a failure.

I would bet 6 slot macs would make a big chunk of sales, but there are many BeigeG3s, B&Ws & Yikes - Yikes is ZIF, right?

Hopefully SONNET got their money's worth. They do have some good stuff and Gurus likes them. That is IMPORTANT.

kaye
01-23-2001, 09:30 AM
Some interesting info on pricing of both old and new xlr8: http://macspeedzone.com/art/edge/xlr8/jan_01.html k

magician
01-23-2001, 05:28 PM
too bad they want money to be listed on their site.

http://macgurus.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Tyrosmurf
01-24-2001, 03:24 AM
Alright M. Are we still looking at end of Feb. for a delivery date? And is there any news on the 6-slot problem?

01-24-2001, 05:06 AM
Look like we will meet the February ship date for the MACh Velocity dual CPU upgrades.

Now then... let me clear up something:

Newer did claim to have a fix for the six slot bus mastering issue. Thus was complete hogwash. They did not have a fix. The issue lies not with any upgrade card but with the G4 itself. Our engineers are working on it as we do realize the importance of the points made here. Thus isn't *real* news, but I felt the need to clarify.

Tyrosmurf
01-24-2001, 11:29 AM
Thanks for the update Darin. Hopeing for better news soon in regards to the slot problem. http://macgurus.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Tyrosmurf
01-24-2001, 11:57 AM
By the way, while exploring the Motorola site I found a page saying the 7450 has 3 speeds, 533, 667, & 733. I wonder if that means the 7410 will soon be restricted to the powerbooks only because of heat issues. Dual 533 7450's at low end? http://www.macgurus.com/ubb/cool.gif

Big Al
01-24-2001, 02:36 PM
It looks to me like Apple is currently using the 7410 in the new 533MHz G4. If you look at the specs the 466MHz and 533MHz G4s have 1MB of L2 while the 667MHz and 733Mhz have 256KB of L2 and 1MB of L3. I wonder if that is a stopgap measure to get some of the new G4s shipped before the 7450 chips are available in quantity or if it's the way they will stay?

magician
01-24-2001, 03:50 PM
hard to say.

I can add this clarification to the six-slot issue with G4's.

at this point, it appears that it will not be readily fixable by any manufacturer with single G4 upgrades. There is not enough logic on the boards to handle the work-arounds required to support the lower three slots.

there is adequate logic on the forthcoming Velocity upgrades, which will support dual-G4's in various machines, including those vintage machines upgraded with CarrierMPe.

I would not expect to see this fix incorporated in the first build of Velocity, but certainly in later builds.

of course, this is ALL very subject to change. As of yesterday, this is the latest as I understand it.

Tyrosmurf
01-24-2001, 03:51 PM
That is what I meant. The 533/7410 was used until the 533/7450 was available in volume.But with bigger Altivec etc. a dual 533/7450 would be sweet as a low end setup.

Tyrosmurf
01-24-2001, 04:03 PM
M. Is a Daystar Genesis ( with 4 604's ) based on the 9500 or 9600 motherboard? I came across one for sale and wonder if it is worthy as an upgrade project.Dual Velocity cards? Facinating idea to play with. http://macgurus.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Louie
01-24-2001, 05:25 PM
Genesis is based on the 9500. DayStar did all of Apple's early work on MP. Mike Breeden has a Genesis and has lots of stuff on his site about it.

Tyrosmurf
01-24-2001, 06:02 PM
And Mike's site is ........... http://macgurus.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Louie
01-24-2001, 07:17 PM
Sorry, it's http://www.xlr8yourmac.com/ . He rearranged a while back so you'll have to search. He has full blown tests of his Genesis and also has used it many times to test G3 cards, video cards, etc. in comparison tests along with other machines. I don't remember how many processors he runs.

Lots of the DayStar people went to XLR8.

Tyrosmurf
01-24-2001, 07:59 PM
Louie, did the daystar have all four cpus mounted on the same card? Or two on two cards? I was under the impression it had two cpu slots. I found the page. Thanks for the tip.

[This message has been edited by Tyrosmurf (edited 24 January 2001).]

Louie
01-24-2001, 08:37 PM
I'm not sure. Never saw one. I think the 9500MP had two processors on one card. The UMAX had two processor slots. Kaye and/or Magician will know. Kaye is having dinner guests and Magician is walking his dog, but they will be along.

kaye
01-25-2001, 03:07 AM
T,

You might also look here http://www.daystar.com/ for more info. k

PENDRAGON18
01-25-2001, 10:47 AM
I'm nearly certain that the S900 was the ONLY Mac that had a secondary processor slot. Its nearly useless as nobody supports it. I did not have the best results with my 604e/250|200Mhz setup, so I went to a G3. It also limits the size of the PCI card in the first slot. Good thing most SCSI cards are small.

I remeber seen a Gensis Quad card... it had 4 CPUs on it...

Tyrosmurf
01-25-2001, 02:20 PM
You were right Pen. four on a card. Any suggestions on the worth of a Day/Gen box? Listed with; 4/200 604s, 512 mb ram, Atto uw scsi with a 4 gig and a 3 gig hds, dual video ( type unknown),and ethernet. I'm thinking of this as a starting point for a custom project. All SAGELY GURU advise is welcome!

I'm sorry , I just realized I've changed subjects. Should I start a new thread? http://macgurus.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_redface.gif
PS I have 24 hrs to decide.
[This message has been edited by Tyrosmurf (edited 25 January 2001).]

[This message has been edited by Tyrosmurf (edited 25 January 2001).]

Louie
01-25-2001, 05:43 PM
It certainly would be a conversation piece. Those thing cost a bloody fortune new.

magician
01-25-2001, 05:48 PM
you're right. They were like ten grand. Best enclosure ever built. The problem is getting power supplies for them.

I don't remember whether it had two daughtercard slots or one, but I do know that Velocity will only work on a CarrierMPe running in a primary processor slot. The Genesis and Millennium were all Tsunami variants, based on the 9500, not the 9600. Most had logic board cache, though there was a procedure guys like Tweek did to disable it for improved G3 daughtercard compatibility back in the day.

Breeden loves that thing. I do, too. I figure one will pass thru my hands eventually at a good price.

Tyrosmurf
01-26-2001, 02:23 AM
Alas.(heavy sigh) The competition for this one is at $900 and I fear it's lost to me. Fare well sweet Genesis.

the_anarch
01-26-2001, 01:58 PM
I'm gonna jump back in here to ask one question that I don't really believe anyone knows the answer to, but what the hell...

So the six-slot issue with G4 upgrades is supposed to be in the G4 itself. XLR8 is working to correct that with the new dual-proc upgrades.

The scenario I'm questioning is: Let's say Mac X buys an MPe Carrier card and Velocity, with either one or two G4 ZIFs it doesn't matter, for his 9600 or PTPro, as soon as they come out in February. But XLR8 hasn't fixed the six-slot problem by then.

A few months later XLR8 fixes the problem. Mac X now wants to have all six of his slots useable. Does he have to just buy new G4 ZIFs? Or does he have to start all over and buy a brand new Carrier and Velocity? Or maybe the Carrier's OK but he still needs a newly fixed Velocity?

Anyone care to speculate?

http://www.triozon.net/anarch.gif

magician
01-26-2001, 04:48 PM
the problem is in the G4 itself, but there is sufficient logic for a fix on the Velocity card itself. Running a single G4 MPe on a CarrierMPe will not accommodate the fix. Running dual G4's on a Velocity on a CarrierMPe will. I can't be certain, at this point, but I suspect that the fix would be implementable on legacy Velocity boards. If not, you can assume that XLR8 would execute an exchange.

Tyrosmurf
01-27-2001, 02:48 AM
Ok now. Just to throw the ol'monkey wrench in this disscusion, how did apple put four pci slots and a 4x AGP in the new box? Could the 7400 have the bug, but the 7410 and 7450 not have it? Hmmmmm. . . .

magician
01-27-2001, 06:12 AM
I believe the problem arises when the G4 has to talk to more than one PCI bus controller.

MadDog
01-27-2001, 12:52 PM
Good question... The new apple boxes have 1 AGP + 4 PCI. Does that mean there is a PCI bridge chip ? Or does AGP not count when counting up the total number of slots ?

Mad Dog


http://www.macgurus.com/ubb/jollyroger.gif

Louie
01-27-2001, 02:58 PM
Older PCI controller such as Bandit can handle 4 PCI slots. Guess the new ones can too.

Tyrosmurf
01-27-2001, 03:38 PM
That begs the next question. If the controller can talk to 4 PCIs, how do the expansion box manufacturers add up to 13 via a one slot bridge thing. Total Impact had two expan/boxes and some of their mp cards for a total of 96 604 cpu's operating in one 9600 box.(DROOL)

the_anarch
01-28-2001, 01:04 AM
According to an architecture block diagram for the G4s, the AGP is on its own 66MHz bus that is controlled by the Uni-North Memory Controller and PCI Bridge. In fact, the Uni-North controls everything except the USB, ATA/EIDE/UDMA/whatever, audio, AirPort and modem. Those are controlled by the Key Largo I/O and Disk Controller. But still the Key Largo has to talk to the processor through the PCI bus of the Uni-North.

The odd thing I noticed is that USB Port A is connected to the AGP slot as well as the Key Largo IC (I guess because the new monitors talk to the CPU over USB), and USB Port B is connected to the modem slot. I guess that would be so a USB modem could override the internal modem?

http://www.triozon.net/anarch.gif

[This message has been edited by the_anarch (edited 28 January 2001).]

Tyrosmurf
01-30-2001, 01:51 AM
This may become academic if you plan to us OS X. It seems Apple isn't supporting any motherboard older than the beige G3. According to MOSR the latest build 4K17 will not load on a 8500/9500 or older mobo and crashes on startup on the 8600/9600 mobos. It seams that Apple MAY support the older PPCs on the second release later this year.MAYBE. I've started thread up in OS X General for further discussion. http://macgurus.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_frown.gif