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Damien
12-18-2003, 10:32 PM
Ok Now that you are here....

My G4MDD dual 1.0 ghz won't boot. http://forums.macgurus.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

Here is the story. I bought a G5 http://forums.macgurus.com/images/dance.gif Set it up. Fired up target disk mode and transferred all my files and prefs. No issues. At this point the G4 was still booting.

Played with the G5 a bit then the next day made one more pass thru the G4 to see if I had forgotten anything. Still booting.

Started to prep the G4 for sale. Removed scsi cards, installed a lessor video card removed scsi drives and installed original ATA drive. Closed up and NO BOOTY http://forums.macgurus.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_confused.gif

The power button will light as long as you are pushing it, when you let go, no light no boot. BUT the story does not end there. Of the bazillion times I have pressed the power button it has since booted twice. Neither time was I ready for it (no startup CD in). Also when you push the power button the fans will turn about 1 revolution and stop.

I have inspected the boards, power supply etc and found nothing obviously wrong. No abraided wires, burnt circuits etc. Confirmed my fans will work when properly powered. Removed ram one stick at a time. It has some 3rd party ram and bigger quieter fans that aren't stock, but as I said I tested all that.

This is a Mac that has been running without fail for 15 months every single day.

Besides a blown motherboard which I do not even want to think about here are my ideas.

Power Supply. My gut tells me the PSU is good and they cost 200$ which is steep especially if it isn't bad

Front Panel Power button/board. Oh I have a sneaking suspicion about this little bugger. it has been getting harder to press lately. Also this MDD model DID have an issue with that but I would have thought it would have shown up long before now.

Anyone have any thoughts?


On a slightly different note could an ATX PSU be hacked into this Mac? Always assuming I do not want to use any PCI slots and assuming I can do without ADC (no 28v line in an ATX PSU)

Thanks for any help or moral support.

Damien,

Damien's Stuff (http://www.macmeisters.com/~damien/)

eric
12-19-2003, 01:00 AM
Damien,

This sounds like you need to reset the PMU -- stereotypical behavior for that. You've tried that I presume, that is if a MDD has a PMU.

Otherwise, unplug it, pull the battery, and let it sit about 30 mintues -- a old-school logic board reset.

I think you may need to do some mods to an ATX to get it to work. I remember reading something somewhere -- people trying to build their own G4s on the cheap. The PSU was always a bit of problem. From what I gathered there the 28v lines are needed to kick start the PSU, so they need to be there.

As for the front panel board. You may be able to pull that thing off and take a look at it. I've been able to pull that box containing the board from my B/W. Don't know what you'd gleen from looking at it though.

Damien
12-19-2003, 05:46 AM
yeah I tried the PMU http://forums.macgurus.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

Will try the battery thing though...

The ATX will need to be re-pinned for sure but according to my research the 28 volt line goes out of the PSU to power the monitor via the ADC connector. More research if definitely in order before that happens, fer shure!

That little front panel.... hmmmm. I may take that off today and see whats what. It that is bad would it keep the mac from booting even with a Keyboard power key? I have a keyboard with a power key and I get nuthin from it as well.

Damien,

Damien's Stuff (http://www.macmeisters.com/~damien/)

eric
12-19-2003, 06:17 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>I may take that off today and see whats what. It that is bad would it keep the mac from booting even with a Keyboard power key? I have a keyboard with a power key and I get nuthin from it as well.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Well it's no surprise that the power key doesn't do anything on an MDD. Remember, Apple killed that off at some point on the early G4s. I believe it still functions on a Yikes G4 as it does on a B/W G3. But one of the next generation G4s (Sawtooth or Gigibit Ethernet), which included the Pro keyboard w/o a power button, marked the end of the Power Key.

I believe the story on that was, in order for the power key to work on USB, the ports were left hot, which is again the USB spec. So Apple played niced, and brought their implementation back into spec. which meant no more power key.

I wish I could answer your question about an alternative to try to kick start an MDD. On a B/W, you could do exactly what you were thinking. That is, unplug the connectors from the mb to the front power panel, but still startup the Mac from the power key. On these old Smurf boxes, it was one way to check whether that front panel was dead.

But I wonder, just a theory mind you. Do you have one of those Apple LCD/ADC screens? You can startup your Mac with the Power button on the LCD, no? If so, you could attach the montitor to the MDD and see if the thing starts up. Also, you could try unplugging those connectors to the motherboard and still see if the MDD startups up via the monitor. All theory mind you, but worth a go.

Damien
12-19-2003, 06:45 AM
About that power key thing anyway but I think you have the model where that was introduced incorrect. I had a G4 Digital Audio 733 that would definitely boot from a keyboard power key, so the disabling of that had to be done on the Quicksilver or MDD Macs.

unless..... I have always had my keyboard connected thru a powered hub... would this enable a power key to work on a Mac that didn't support it?

No LCD for me. When I sold this Mac that was where the $ was going to go.. http://forums.macgurus.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

Damien,

Damien's Stuff (http://www.macmeisters.com/~damien/)

eric
12-19-2003, 06:53 AM
You're probably correct about the model. I haven't bought a Mac since this B/W. I think you've gone through perhaps the entire G4 line since then. So you'd know better than me which G4s can still do it.

I don't think connecting the keyboard through a powered hub would enable it. In fact, with most hubs (powered or not), you can't startup a Mac (that can do it) from the keyboard when it's plugged into the hub.

I think Macally is the only USB hub manufacturer that makes hubs (their iHubs) which preserve keyboard startup when the keyboard is plugged into the hub. I have an iHub7, and my keyboard's plugged into that -- power key still works. With the old Xircom I had, couldn't startup from the keyboard when plugged into the hub.

I thought you had a 17" Apple LCD?

Damien
12-19-2003, 08:18 AM
Used to, Sold it and the 733 to get the G4 MDD (that won't boot now)

Damien,

Damien's Stuff (http://www.macmeisters.com/~damien/)

ricks
12-19-2003, 08:54 AM
D,

?What about that video card? And what else is different since it was running before? Did you pull some ram? Put in any old PCI cards?

?Have you go the MDD Service Manual? I think I have a copy around here somewhere.

Rick

Quis Custodiet Custodes Ipsos?

eric
12-19-2003, 09:02 AM
Ah so my memory isn't completely gone to heck. You did have 17" LCD. Good thing Rick's come around with some other ideas.

Well to brighten your spirit, I think you should go to the Apple forums and check out my icon.

Damien
12-19-2003, 09:07 AM
Stock video card makes no difference. removing the ram one at a time makes no difference. The ram has also been working for over a year.

No joy on the battery removal thingy either

Damien,

Damien's Stuff (http://www.macmeisters.com/~damien/)

Greentree_uk
12-19-2003, 09:52 AM
here damien solution for you.


Remove ram. remove power cord. remove battery. Reset cuda/ PMU, push pwr button. insert pwr cord and boot yes without ram if you get a beep then ur back in business. put ram back in. if not as above but press pwr and cuda together. have had this issue with a good few G4's and this always fixes them. if not. then leave overnight with pwr out. battery and ram out and when you come in in the morning press pwr button on front one last time. then pwr up. Goodluck

ricks
12-19-2003, 11:28 AM
Holy COW,

?It's the Greentree of UK fame! What's it been, a year? Great to see you around here again. Hope all is well. At least you're not posting about a recalcitrant G3. Wecome back.

Rick

Quis Custodiet Custodes Ipsos?

Damien
12-19-2003, 01:24 PM
Your Kung-Fu is greater than mine! There I said it. (I bet Rick would never have expected me to admit that about anyone)

I am installing X.3 on this recalcitrant G4 as we speak! http://forums.macgurus.com/images/dance.gif

I used to think I had some tech-savvy but you have shown me how far I still have to go to attain a true geek level!

Last week I had everything in and out several times. Last night I removed and dismantled the power supply. Today I have removed and dismantled the front panel board all to no avail.

Now it works!!

Thank you thank you thank you!! http://forums.macgurus.com/images/dance.gif

http://forums.macgurus.com/images/dance.gif
http://forums.macgurus.com/images/dance.gif

Damien,

Damien's Stuff (http://www.macmeisters.com/~damien/)

ricks
12-19-2003, 02:10 PM
ALL RIGHT!

Quis Custodiet Custodes Ipsos?

eric
12-19-2003, 04:23 PM
Sweet.

I have to admit I had my doubts when I Greentree's instructions -- sounded a whole lot of hoocus poocus, voodoo, mojo, etc.

But I bow to the master.

Greentree_uk
12-20-2003, 12:00 PM
Glad To hear it! yes ricks it's been a while indeed. been busy fixing macs! yes it sounds a far fetched solution but it dog darn works! have had a good few of these come in. I know alot of people think PSU is dead and replace it or worse throw their machine away!!

great to be back

Damien
12-23-2003, 06:37 PM
Now that the #@$# thing will boot I have been trouble shooting what might have caused this and here is what I have found

Ram slots 1 and 4 will work fine with any ram I want. Slots 2 and 3 will cause a no boot situation with any ram in them Even the tested good ram and the same ram I have been using for 18 months. The slots that fail have been occupied and working slots for 18 months as well. I did not remove the ram from these slots when prepping the mac for sale either. I shut down a working Mac, pulled scsi cards, cables, one hard drive and exchanged a video card tried to restart and nothin!

I plan to examine the slots themselves very carefully ( have a magnifying glass somewhere!) other than that I can't think of anything else to bring back these slots

Damien,

Damien's Stuff (http://www.macmeisters.com/~damien/)

ricks
12-23-2003, 07:36 PM
Damien,

Wonder if it might be firmware or boot rom related? You might try the same trick as you used to get it up and running last time, pull it down and boot up with no ram and then do PRAM resets or Open Firmware resets when you boot up with ram installed in those slots. See if you can get the system to reappraise all hardware with a PRAM reset and fix whatever is causing the no boot.

Rick

Quis Custodiet Custodes Ipsos?

Damien
12-23-2003, 09:21 PM
I could boot with no ram again but having ram in those slots results in no power ever coming on. no PSU at all so no pram or open firmware would be possible

I suppose I could reset it all and then add back in ram and see.....

hmmmm

be right back

Damien,

Damien's Stuff (http://www.macmeisters.com/~damien/)

Damien
12-23-2003, 10:23 PM
Well the no ram boot followed by a ram boot with NVRam reset did not help

So I just took the motherboard out completely daughter card and all. Examined for cracks, foreign objects etc .. nothing to be seen.

Oddly enough I did not have any spare parts leftover http://forums.macgurus.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif . Also it booted again! I also tested the known good APPLE ram in slot 2 and got the no ram beeps. Slot 3 booted this time but slot 4 didn't. weird.....

Slot 1 is the only reliable one so far but I have not tried the others since the board removal.


(later) Now slots 2 & 3 out again and 4 working

I give. Selling it as is.

Damien,

Damien's Stuff (http://www.macmeisters.com/~damien/)

[This message was edited by Damien on Tue December 23, 2003 PT at 21:31.]