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Santilli
10-23-2003, 08:39 PM
HI
My new school district is all macs.

So, to get things going, I brought out my g3, 33hmhz with 9.22, Cheetah 10x on an uw card, using an LVD cable, and termination.

I bought a Tempo 3 in one card. It has four fire wire ports, 2 usb external, and, it looks like two ide 133 channels.

Install card, dead machine, no boot. Switch slots, putting scsi furthest from processor, everything works fine. Don't ask me why. Just a guess from playing with PC's.

So, I reinstalled my mouse, and scanner, on the USB ports, and a La Cie
firewire, cd-rw for burning copies of programs, for class room use, and,
plus a scsi reader, external.

I ordered a LVD ATTO card, and, I'm considering ordering one of the 15.3K Cheetahs, 18 gigs, 3.6 ms, access time, for a boot drive.

I'm also wondering if anyone makes removeable ide drives that I could plug in, or, if I should just get firewire drives, and use those for data backup.

The grackle chipset limits the bus to 75 mbsec, about right for the new X 15, and the 32 bit/33mhz bus limits firewire to 40 mb/sec.

Another consideration is getting a raptor, booting os X, and going on from there. The problem is OS X may not support my scsi stuff, but, I think it will, with the ATTO card, and boot from the Sonnet, since I don't think the ATTO card is bootable in OS X, on a beige.

Any thoughts, comments, etc.?

Thanks

Mac G3/333mhz/384mb RAM Startup system: ATTO OEM UW SCSI Card
4000N printer




Lombard 333 with 384 mb RAM, VST Floppy, zip, and CD

Costa
10-24-2003, 02:20 AM
Dear Santilli,

First, as you speak about Grackle Memory and IC Controller (aka Motorola's MPC106 (http://e-www.motorola.com/brdata/PDFDB/docs/MPC106UM.pdf) PCI Bridge/Memory Controller chip), I take it you are talking about a Beige G3 Mini Tower PowerMac, with a CPU running at 333MHz frequency; correct?

As you have plugged in it a Sonnet Tempo Trio card, you should be aware that you can safely connect to it one of the modern, large in capacity, Ultra ATA-100/133 hard drives.
To be specific, contrary to the in-built limitations your OEM, on-board IDE controller, which is an ATA-2 std (aka EIDE) custom twicked by Apple to support Ultra DMA mode, you can connect to such Trio card hard drives greater than 120GB in formatted size and use it for backing up your fast SCSI drives.

For example, you could connect to such Sonnet card a 250GB fast drive with 8MB disk buffer (http://www.zipzoomfly.com/jsp/ProductDetail.jsp?ProductCode=101220), knowing you will be able to exploit it to it's full capacity; PLUS it will be also a bootable drive.

Such solution should leave you plenty of storage space for your scratch work, projects, backuped data, new applications to try out, new OS versions to test, etc. .... You name it.

Also, being such PCI card an ATA-7 std, it will enable you to wave the rule about OSX which needs to be installed on a partition within the first 8GB in size (http://kbase.info.apple.com/viewdoc.jsp?dialogID=27895179&searchMode=gs&docID=106235&sliceID=&sessionID=|27883904), when normally installing OSX on an ATA drive connected to the on-board IDE bus:
you would thus be able to install OSX on any partition, any size you wish.
However, keep in mind that your older Beige system does NOT support multiple versions of OSX (http://docs.info.apple.com/article.html?artnum=106975) installed on different partitions or disks.

I am not sure the new ATTO LVD PCI card you have just ordered is supported under OSX, unless it's any of their part #s FC 3300 or FC 3305.

Probably, someone more knowledgable than me, will chimie in on this one.

I don't know of anybody who sells removable IDE media adaptable for the Beige MT systems, but there are plenty of external FireWire solutions to choose from, if so you wish.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> The grackle chipset limits the bus to 75 mbsec, about right for the new X 15, and the 32 bit/33mhz bus limits firewire to 40 mb/sec. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Ehm, .... I think there's a little confusion in the above statement.
You can overclok the Beige Front System Bus up to 83Mhz, if so you wish (at your own risk and care, though).
The correct FireWire limit managable by the Beige G3 PowerMacs is through the added FW ports on the Tempo Trio card. Thus, any data going through there will be limited by:
<UL TYPE=SQUARE><LI>A FireWire specification of 400 Megabits per second such card supports; as you need 8 bits to make 1 byte, it translates to a maximum data throughput of 50 Mega Bytes per second.
<LI>The PCI bus specification handled by the GRACKLE chipset, is indeed of 33MHz on a 32-bit bandwidth, corresponding to a theoretical data throughput of maximum 132MB/sec.
However, since your PCI bus will be already busy transferring other data coming from other peripherals connected to the logic board, it is likely your FW external hard disks will guarntee you a sustained data throughput of about 40MB/sec.
[/list]
If you plan to install OSX on your machine, I would strongly advise you to boost your RAM availability up to 512MB at least.

Maybe, reading through this thread (http://discussions.info.apple.com/WebX?128@241.oKl0aVmnhHO.0@.599b1ab2) on the Apple Discussion Forums, will provide you with additional interesting info.

Work out an upgrading plan, stating what you want to do. Then we might be able to advise you better and more precisely.

My 2 worth.

Costa

Take it to the Max, Mac!

TZ
10-24-2003, 06:40 AM
Do you need X15.3's? The 10K is almost as fast for 1/2 the price. SCSI or ATA or SATA, pick one. but when it comes to LVD SCSI, Miles2 or Adaptec 29160, not the UL3S/D (and definitely not the OEM UL3D sold by OWC). The ATTO UW PSC is okay. You won't get 65MB/s but its pretty good.

I have Beige and ATTO PSC, UL2D, UL3S, OEM UL3D - I also got the 39160 to use but don't have Rev C ROM. Also used SATA and ACard controllers.

How much do you want to invest? Panther is not supported even if XPF 3 does allow you to.

When you add and move cards, either reset Open Firmware, or reset the cuda button for 30 seconds.

I have G3/466 and it just needs something more - its fully decked out - but a G3/900 or G4/700 or /1000 (Sonnet G4s) is needed. And I've got 768MB RAM on it, all PC100 CAS2 Crucial 8 ns.

FireWire - take any IDE drive, buy case (from Gurus Store of course http://forums.macgurus.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif and you're set.

Even the WD Raptor didn't perform as well as Atlas 10K IV (about the same slightly faster than Cheetah 10K.6), or much better than PATA. When it comes to 7200 rpm drives in PATA/SATA I'd look at the Hitachi 7K250 www.storagereview.com (http://www.storagereview.com) has reviews of and Drive Comparison tables.

TZ
10-24-2003, 07:17 AM
Beige layout:

SCSI card - ATTO UW (PSC is still supported and bootable and acceptable performance w/ 10K Cheetah 36GB $155-199.

ATTO UL3S is not bootable. And may not allow booting in OS 9. My UL2D is fine but not bootable in OS X but is in OS 9. Which is why if you really want SCSI and to be bootable and all, the Adaptec 29160/29160N is the way to go ("N" if you use narrow scsi devices externally), but it is $300. About the same as what most online stores sell UL3S and UL4S.

Save yourself $500 and put it into G3/900, or G4/700, or G4/1000.

Sonnet Tempo Trio - with a good drive, you should get 48MB/sec, offers good PCI funtions. About the same as SATA.

There is no SATA + FW + USB card.

You may eventually want ATI Radeon 7000 for video if you run OS X or just want something better.

Santilli
10-24-2003, 09:42 PM
OK:

I need mass storage. Every kid turns in a paper, gets scanned in PS 4, and stored in his folder.

Using La Cie CDRW, I am going to give each parent a record of the childs work, both in class, outside class, and the schedule expected, vs. turned in.

So far, the Sonnet card is working fine, and, the 52 x CDRW is awesome, software excellent as well.

Plan is to add a 15.3 boot drive, and use the 18 gb 10k as storage. If this isn't enough, I'll add ide drives, or, better yet, removeable, redundant, ide drives for storage.

Another possibility is using Zip drives for moveable storage. I am going to look into this, seeing as I just found the Power supply for my
moveable zip, that I might attach to my scsi chain.

I also have jazz drives, which, when you combine their low capacity, with their unreliabilty, well, their only saving grace is they are very expensive, and, I just happen to have a couple.

I may also stay with 8.6 since my scanner, an old Nikon, seems to work only with 8.6.
It fails under 9.22, don't know why. Could be because, after spending 1200 bucks, Nikon figured they didn't need to support it for more then 4 years....F....Nikon.

Anyway, plans are use 15.3 on ATTO ULD3 in 9.22 or less, as boot, 10k Cheetah for storage, and burn stuff onto CD as we go. If worst comes to worse, pick an ide drive, probably a Raptor, or add many scsi cheap drives, and write data to them for storage.


GS

Mac G3/333mhz/384mb RAM Startup system: ATTO OEM UW SCSI Card
4000N printer




Lombard 333 with 384 mb RAM, VST Floppy, zip, and CD

bif
10-25-2003, 03:51 AM
I agree with your CD burning plan for removeable storage, at least to send home to parents. With a 52x burner and the cheap cost of media, although I haven't priced 52x blanks, how can you loose? Zip disks kight be good too, they are reusable and seem to be a thing of the past. Could you incorporate the idea of a USB pen drive into the mix? Assuming each family has a computer with USB, the kids could carry a Pen drive back and forth with a fair amount of data.

TZ
10-25-2003, 06:38 AM
I think its fun and all, but putting X15.3's? Overkill. I put some 15K drives in my B&W, and the new 10K drive stomps the 15K.2 by a long shot, and the new 15K drives are only a tiny fraction above 10K and there is nothing about desktop that demands that 5-8MB/sec. If you were editing a lot in PS and needed scratch disk, or doing video editing... but video editing is actually better also to stick to 10K.

research your ATTO card or whatever you get, carefully and you may want to look at ACard's LVD Ultra160 SCSI card even. Half the price of 29160 but suitable. Adaptec only requires 8.5.1+.

Also, when you initialize your drives, SoftRAID 2.2.2 ($100+?) or HDST 3.5 or maybe Drive Setup 2.07/2.1. DS 1.73 isn't a good choice, doesn't really "know" Ultra320 SCSI.

Costa
10-25-2003, 06:58 AM
Dear Santilli,

Like Bif says, you look fine with your CD-RW at present. I also like the USB pen idea: look into it and see if it is cost effective for what you need to do.

However, ZIP disks are getting much too expensive compared to other media available. Provided your kids are kind enough to bring them back to you, you may want to stick or use them another while longer. But, in your shoes, I wouldn't go crazy investing any more $$ on those.

I'd rather save up for a nice external FW drive(s) for my own data backups, scratch data, etc...

This site (http://www.xlr8yourmac.com/firewire/OWC_oxford911/OWC_oxford_911_casekit2.htmlc) has got some really good info on how to setup your own FireWire device; if you can do that, you will realize you will save a bundle, too!

About your Jazz drives, .... what can I add? You said it all. I would get rid of 'em on eBay.

Reguarding your SCSI scanner, you may want to consider Espon Perfection 1260 USB Scanner (http://www.epson.com/cgi-bin/Store/consumer/consDetail.jsp?BV_UseBVCookie=yes&oid=21643923); it looks to me to be plenty for what you need and comes at a very low price. I bet it carries better specs than your ol' SCSI one. At least with such peripheral you are one step closer to OSX, should you wish to upgrade to it in the future.
Besides, you could compensate the cost by selling on eBay your older SCSI scanner.

Just thinking out loud here,.... don't take me too seriously, o.k. .... http://forums.macgurus.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif ?

Have fun.

Costa

Take it to the Max, Mac!

TZ
10-25-2003, 07:54 AM
I had to spend $600 at one time for 300 dpi SCSI scanner, $500 for OCR software etc. Toady, you can find great USB scanner Canon LiDE30 (http://www.usa.canon.com/html/conCprProductDetail.jsp?modelid=6623&section=10217) for $79 that I use on my Beige and B&W now. I was surprised how well USB can be - and better than my Umax "FireWire" (parallel scanner with just FW bridge that was trash) which was even more expensive but I figured FW had to be better, and boy was I wrong.

The only SCSI scanner I still use is a slide scanner for 35mm, but with digital cameras, doesn't get much use, either.

Santilli
10-25-2003, 04:11 PM
So I ordered a 15.3 Cheetah from the gurus.

I've always used Cheetah drives, and I find a big difference from the 10k's to the 15ks.

I can take all the stuff off the 10k, and use it for storage, 18 gigs.

When that fills up, I MIGHT hook up an ide drive for mass storage. Problem I have with that is according to records, the ide drive is about 5-10 times more likely to fail, so, using it for a primary storage unit is really stupid.

I could install TWO drives, I think the Tempo has two channels, and do a mirror raid, using 2.2 Softraid. IIRC that works under 9X.

I managed to get my 1200 dollar Nikon scanner to work on another mac, using 8.6. Seems for some reason, PS 4.0, Nikon scan, and 9X don't work together. Freezes in Nikon scan, and, there is no new product to use, that I know of.

So, I wonder if I'd be better off running 8.6 on the beige, since I might be able to get my scanner to work, even though, I currently have PS 4.0 and a Cannon 1220U working great with 9.21.

The nikon scanner is still a great scanner, doing 1200 dpi, with Nikon optics. That's a good thing about 100% of the time.


The OWC card is a Ul3D with one internal channel, and one external.

I had a UL3D raid card, with two internal channels in the beige, hooked up to 4 X15's, and only got 75 mb/sec, can we say grackle?

I moved that all over to this PC, and flashed the card, and I now have a 110 mb/sec in the PC.

I like the snappiness, and cache of the 15k's.
The machine currently has a 10k cheetah in it, 18 gigs, that's a perfect match for the UW card, since it does about 37 mb/sec.

I'm not after the difference in transfer rates, but the near 2x increase in access speed.

Thanks

GS

Mac G3/333mhz/384mb RAM Startup system: ATTO OEM UW SCSI Card
4000N printer




Lombard 333 with 384 mb RAM, VST Floppy, zip, and CD

TZ
10-25-2003, 04:42 PM
I've got three 15K drives, and 10K drives from the last three years. The Performance Database (http://www.storagereview.com/comparison.html) is where I always start. Then select some drives Atlas 15K v X15.3 Cheetah v. Atlas 10K-IV v. Hitachi 7K250 (SATA) (http://www.storagereview.com/php/benchmark/compare_rtg_2001.php?typeID=10&testbedID=3&osID=4&raidconfigID=1&numDrives=1&devID_0=232&devID_1=213&devID_2=221&devID_3=250&devCnt=4) I'd think putting G4/1000 would do more for work and performance than the slight margin of the X15.3 in non-RAID.

If you think the Beige is bad, the B&W is worse, limited to 53MB/sec unless you avail yourself of the 66MHz slot usually 'reserved' for video. Only then, with say 39160 or UL4S will I get 100MB/sec+.

ATA is beating the pants off some SCSI drives. IBM/Hitachi added features like TCQ, Scatter-Gather, and other techniques previously found only on SCSI drives. Which is why they can match the Cheetah 10K.6 in raw sequential transfers.

You could use Tempo HARD RAID rather than use SoftRAID. Guess you already own it. However, Ricks DB and testing seems to show that RAID doesn't do well in B&W or Beige.

I'll be surprised if those bargin OWC OEM UL3D will work in Beige. They aren't designed to, didn't work here. I do have UL2D which works fine, and as long as I don't need more than the 68MB/sec its fine.

Santilli
10-26-2003, 12:03 AM
Since I had a dual channel 3d raid card that worked, I figured their card would work in the beige.
Guess not, according to the list.

Do you still have the 39160, and would you like to sell it?

My rom is version c, and if that's required, wouldn't the 39160 work in my beige?

More info on this would be good.

Thanks

gs

Mac G3/333mhz/384mb RAM Startup system: ATTO OEM UW SCSI Card
4000N printer




Lombard 333 with 384 mb RAM, VST Floppy, zip, and CD

TZ
10-26-2003, 07:09 AM
I use the 39160, only card at the time that works in B&W in 66 MHz slot properly. The best card for Beige is Adaptec 29160, unless you absolutely must have dual channel. $300 at CDW and MacZone etc.

Don't know where to find ATTO UL2D which still works but no longer supported.

the 2940U2B I think worked in OS 9, but not in Jaguar. Miles2 is another choice and $199, but limited to Ultra2.

ricks
10-26-2003, 09:42 AM
?Just as an offhand comment, I have two of those UL2D OEM ATTO cards that are not being used. And won't most likely get used. I'll sell them at $30 each to anyone who wants. (plus whatever little shipping)

?That is the OEM model which only has one channel internal and one channel external. 80 MB/sec.

Rick

Quis Custodiet Custodes Ipsos?

Santilli
10-27-2003, 10:29 PM
I've decided I'm going with the 18 gig, 3.6 ms access time, X 15.3 for a boot drive, off an ATTO LVD U2 card. On that same cable, will be the 10k Cheetah I currently boot from.

Now, data backup. I save stuff in bitmap, and I plan on saving it in folders per month, that hopefully will not exceed 750 mb, or 650 mb. In other words, I will burn the data to CD for parents and kids, at the size it's neccessary to do so.

How am I going to transfer files from work, to home, and back them up at home?

I have zip, and jazz drives that might work for this. I also, now, have firewire in both work, and home, pc. My home pc is not super reliable storage, since the one machine I love is based on a 4X X 15 raid, that does 110 mb/sec. That said, I need reliable storage, and, I have an old, 450 mhz, pc, with external storage, that, if the data is brought in could be transfered to the external raid box, and stored on multiple single drives.

I could also do this with the cd-rw format, on the current 52X La Cie firewire drive I have at work.
gs

Mac G3/333mhz/384mb RAM Startup system: ATTO OEM UW SCSI Card
4000N printer




Lombard 333 with 384 mb RAM, VST Floppy, zip, and CD

Santilli
10-29-2003, 09:38 PM
Hi
Got the drive, set it up in 8.6, and found out the LaCie Roxio burner software only works in 9.X or higher.
Installed 9.21, and, I have the scanner up and running, along with the burner, already. Haven't had a chance to test the drive, but I'll get the cards tomorrow, and install the next day.

Cheetah seems fast, but, I'd guess it's working at half the data speed it's capable of.

Cheetah 15.3=raid 0 in one drive.

Can't wait to put in the LVD card. Trying to figure out how to use the Jazz drive to transfer files from work to home. I have it hooked up, right now, with one at home, and one at work.
Twist is, I need a 25 pin connector, to that weird, small pinned jazz ultra 2 interface to connect to my main box. The backup box is hooked up through an external 2940, and I managed to hook up the jazz to that, problem is, it means I have to take the uw backup box off line, then reconnect.
Has to be a better way.

Have to look in my cable box tomorrow, and see if I can figure out a way to solve this problem.

gs

Mac G3/333mhz/384mb RAM Startup system: ATTO OEM UW SCSI Card
4000N printer




Lombard 333 with 384 mb RAM, VST Floppy, zip, and CD

Santilli
10-30-2003, 09:47 PM
Cheetah is installed, forgot to bring home the cables to match them to the variety of connectors I have, and also need to transfer files to the jazz, or zip disk I settle on.

I have the atto cards, thanks Rick, and will try them tomorrow.


gs

Mac G3/333mhz/384mb RAM Startup system: ATTO OEM UW SCSI Card
4000N printer




Lombard 333 with 384 mb RAM, VST Floppy, zip, and CD

[This message was edited by Santilli on Fri October 31, 2003 PT at 20:29.]