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ne\'er-do-well
10-12-2003, 12:53 PM
*Troubleshooting help requested*

The machine: stock B&W 450 server (revision 2 motherboard). I believe that all the following were probably original issue with the machine: two matched sticks of 128MB Apple-branded MT16LSDT1664AG-10E27 PC100-222-620 RAM, an ATI Rage 128 GL AMC Ver. 2.O video card, a Mac Apple SCSI ULTRA2-LVD/SE FAB 1692307-00 REV B AHA2940U2B SCSI controller (one internal and one external connection) and three matched 10,000 RPM Seagate Barracuda ST39103LWS drives running off one three-drive Foxcomm SCSI cable. A CDROM which is likely stock. No IDE drive. No additional PCI cards, RAM, or anything else I can see.

I had hoped to run it on MacOS 9.x using software which I own that has not yet been upgraded to MacOS X and that does not take advantage of the G4 Altivec engine. The G3 450, this amount of RAM, these SCSI drives using SoftRAID in a mirrored RAID 1 configuration would be a perfect cost-effective fit for this particular software set-up, probably for several years to come. This particular box would probably never go past MacOS 9.2.2, max - except for some experimentation.

That was the plan. Too bad the B&W doesn't work.

When troubleshooting, the machine is hooked up to nothing except keyboard, monitor and mouse - no printer, network, or scanner, etc. No firewire or ethernet connections hooked up. Naked. Simple. Pure.

When I turn the B&W on - from the power key on any of several known working USB keyboards in either USB receptacle or from one known working ABD keyboard, or from the front power switch - the front power light button comes on, the fan(s) come on, I hear a half second "riiiip" sound (probably a hard drive being momentarily accessed), a few more sounds of hard drives being momentarily accessed, an occasional click and "brp," and that is it.

No welcome chime. :-(

No sustained disk access sound of an OS loading. :-(

The monitor stays completely dark. :-(

Nothing on the monitor at all.

If I leave it on for a while, I hear an occasional short "brp" sound, like a hard drive calibrating itself.

Although the machine will start up from any keyboard I have thrown at it, it will not shut down from a keyboard - not via any keyboard combination I can come up with (one finger or three finger followed by the enter key).

So - I can only shut it down via the front panel power button.

Troubleshooting thus far - please note, not one thing has changed with any of this troubleshooting:

(1) Before I even turned the box on, on first receiving it via Fed Express Ground (it was double-boxed, better boxed than most, with no obvious damage - the seller seemed to care about what he was doing), I opened it up and, with careful anti-static precautions (touching the power supply first), I made sure nothing was loose. Also confirmed that it had a Revision 2 motherboard.

The only thing I saw loose was the end of the "Foxconn" SCSI ribbon farthest from the motherboard. It has some circuitry there, and is designed to be seated on a plastic thin square gizmo glued to the top of one of the hard drives. I carefully reseated it in the plastic holder.

(2) Exchanged out the keyboard, mouse and power cord that came with the machine with known working ones. Confirmed that all these things that came with the B&W work fine on my other machines. So it ain't the mouse, keyboard, or power cord.

Tried it on two different working monitors - a Samsung SynchMaster IFT 17" and a Samsung SynchMaster 957MB 19" - these work fine on both my other Mac and on my Linux box. So, unless the B&W does not like Samsungs (doubtful), it ain't the monitors.

(3)Zapped the PRAM via the keyboard on startup. Held the cuda button down for 20 seconds. Pulled the PRAM battery for over an hour. Exchanged the PRAM battery with a known working one from another Mac (the PRAM battery that came with the B&W is working fine now in the other Mac).

While I was in the area of the cuda button, I also reset the PMU chip. (Actually, I am not sure which is which - the gray button nearer the battery is labled "S4" while the similar gray button a little farther away from the battery is labeled "S5" - there is no red button or any button labeled "S1.") - so I did the cuda and the PMU reset one after the other, not sure which is first or second. Laer reversed order - didn't seem to make any difference.

(4) Unseated and reseated RAM and every other plug and such I could think of. The PCI SCSI card and the PCI video card are in there very solidly and screwed in - couldn't even wriggle 'em. Just pressed down to insure they were well seated.

(5) Tried starting with the shift key down to avoid extension conflicts. Tried rebuilding the desktop from the keyboard.

(6) Took a look at the drives - they are matching Seagate Barracuda ST39103LWS drives - two have jumpers (in different places), one does not. I figure that they are probably properly jumpered. Disconnected two to leave just the last one engaged. Then disconnected that one and tried with just the first one engaged.

(7) Through all this, a couple of times, tried booting off a MacOS 9.x CD with the "C" key held down or with both the "C" key and the shift key held down. No dice.

(8) Took out one of the two matched 128 MB sticks of RAM - I think it's the good stuff:

The big white sticker reads:

MT16LSDT1664AG-10E27 PC100-222-620
SG NA1PP010 199931
APPLE 333-0317

The eight small chips on one side read:

9930 4-2
MT 48LC8M8A2
TG -8E E
A57V

The eight chips on the other side are similar:

9930 4-2
MT 48LC8M8A2
TG -8E E
A55L

Exchanged the two 128 MB RAM modules (running only 128 MB RAM each time). The white sticker numbers on both sticks of RAM were the same. The numbers on the small chips on each side were the same with the exception of the four-character code on the side of the chips: A4R2 and Y57L. Looks like the two chips are very closely matched, anyway.

Finally replaced both where they were originally - in the two slots farthest from the edge of the keyboard. Firmly seated.

(9) Disconnected the SCSI cable from the SCSI controller and pulled the SCSI card entirely (screwdriver time!). Tried to boot solely via the CD with the "C" key held down.

The SCSI card, assembled in Singapore, is as follows:

SCSI ULTRA2-LVD/SE

AHA2940U2B/
MAC APPLE
1795500 E
9928

FAB 1692307-00 REV B

It has one internal SCSI plug and one external SCSI plug. The gentleman at SoftRAID was kind enough to note that both will not work at the same time.

I know that there may be a firmware update on this card, but I have no way of knowing if it has been applied.

(10) Pulled the video card - heck, I wasn't getting any video, anyway.

ATI RAGE 128 GL
AMC VER. 2.O

(11) Hooked the SCSI stuff back up completely and unhooked the CDROM ATA cable from the motherboard.

(12) Hooked everything back together internally and started up with all externals - mouse, keyboard, and monitor - unhooked. So the only cord going into the machine was a power cord.

During all this time I did an occasional keyboard PRAM Zap, "C," etc. At the end, another cuda button and PMU reset.

No dice.

Symptoms never changed once. No welcome chime. No disk access chatter of loading a MacOS. Monitor stayed blank throughout.


My conjectures:

(1) Bad motherboard. Either from transit or from an incompetent/dishonest seller. If this is the case, I guess the next step is to attempt to return the machine.

Others have conjectured a problem with the the processor (it seems firmly seated beneath a large clamped heatsink - I haven't tried pulling it out) or the multipier (a tape stating "Void if Warranty Seal is Broken" is in place over what I assume to be the multiplier jumper settings.

(2) I dunno some secret about how to handle a B&W.

(3) I wonder if the seller may have tried to put MacOS X on it without doing the appropriate firmware update first. Or may have tried to put an incompatible version of Mac OS 10.x.x or 9.x.x, perhaps without an appropriate firmware update. Or if he applied a firmware update which hosed the machine. If so, I do not where to begin in regard to recovering the machine. Any ideas?

I would like to get this machine running if I can, it is perfect for my software situation. But if it's broke, it's broke.

If anyone can help with troubleshooting, I would greatly appreciate it.

Or next step is back to seller.


Thank you,

ne'er-do-well


Oh - I am already familiar with most of the relevant materials at lowendmac.com and xlr8yourmac.com.

The troubleshooting that I have not tried and why:

(1) Hooking up an external USB or Firewire drive. I have neither.

(2) Testing the hard dives on another Mac. I just have a PPC 7200 (50-pin SCSI) - I don't know if it could handle these SCSI drives for testing, even with the B&W SCSI controller card. Seems to me that if the B&W will not boot with the whole SCSI system detached, that the problem is probably not a SCSI problem.

(3) Hooking up a known working video card. I have one - an Ultimate Rez - but I have kinda run out of steam on this approach. And heck - I did pull the ATI video card entirely from the B&W, with no changes seen.

[This message was edited by ne'er-do-well on Sun October 12, 2003 PT at 13:05.]

ricks
10-12-2003, 01:49 PM
Oh boy, don't you have fun.

¬?In reverse order to clear up a few things,

¬?You cannot boot a B&W from a USB or Firewire device, the code is not built into the rom. So you aren't missing anything by not having tried that.

¬?The button nearest the battery is the CUDA, the other is a power on switch that is for bench powering without the mobo in a case. No problem if you hit it except it should boot up the computer. There is no PMU in B&W and early G4 Macs.

¬?I would really get that machine down to bare next. I would remove the 2940U2B and replace the Apple ram and try and boot from the OS CD that it shipped with, 8.5.1 if you can find it. That B&W will not boot OS9 unless it had the firmware update and there was also a firmware update for the 2940U2B. You may be stuck and have to assume that the update was made if you do not have a copy.

¬?I would do an Open Firmware reset the very next time you try and boot. I do not expect that to work if you do not get a startup chime though, so pull everything except ram and CD cable and after hitting power hold the Command+Option+O+F keys. This will put you in the Open Firmware interface. At the '>' prompt type:

reset-nvram
Return
set-defaults
Return
reset-all
Return and hopefully your computer chimes again. The Open Firmware is on the motherboard rom and does not need any drive connected to boot to. Until you can get booted into Open Firmware don't even bother with any other procedures involving OS installs and hard drives or CDs.

¬?You might also have to try removing the Graphics card to see if you get a chime. You will have to power it down manually if you do get a chime since you won't be able to tell what is going on but at least you'll know if the graphics are the problem.

I have a copy of the G3 service manual on my iDisk, you can go through it and analyze what LEDs are lit and where the problem might be. Manual (http://homepage.mac.com/rstephens/.Public/g3_minitow.pdf)


Rick

Quis Custodiet Custodes Ipsos?

eric
10-12-2003, 01:57 PM
Let's try the pmu reset again.

Unplug the machine. Let it sit. Ground yourself. Press S5 once -- the labeled 'Power'. You're done. Don't press it more than once since that can prematurely drain your battery. (You have to unplug the machine to do this PMU reset; otherwise S5 functions as yet another power button.) FYI, there's a logic board diagram here (http://docs.info.apple.com/article.html?artnum=95063).

Plug the machine back in and try to power it up again, either from the keyboard or from the front panel button.

If that doesn't help, there's another thing which can cause what you're seeing. A dead/fried front panel. There's circuit board with buttons (and lights) right behind the front panel power, reset, programmer buttons. If that things dead, your Mac won't boot.

There is a way to test for that. If you look behind those buttons, you'll see a metal cover which houses that circuit board. You'll also note that there are two connectors going into it: (1) a standard 4 pin Molex power connector, (2) a flat ribbon cable -- I think around 12-16 wires. (You can also make sure that Molex connector is plugged in properly.)

That flat ribbon cable runs from the front panel to the motherboard. With the machine unplugged, disconnect the flat ribbon cable from the motherboard. Plug in the machine. You should still be able to startup your Mac with the power key on the keyboard.

TZ
10-12-2003, 02:14 PM
I'll take some stabs. Obviously you want to know if you were sold a "dud" or not.

RAM: you want PC100 8 ns 125 MHz. Crucial is best bet and safe. They also sell/recommend PC133 for the Yosemite that works fine, and is slightly cheaper. Even the RAM that Apple originally sold was 10 ns and would cause crashes (but only couple times a week under full load that would max out memory).

2940U2B: both channels work. But I defer to Mark and SoftRAID on all things http://forums.macgurus.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif Okay card, works better with Granite cable and adapter. The B&W today, might as well stick with ATA card and drives, or SATA, rather than SCSI. Those are old, slow Cheetahs in there that don't compete with today's drives.

Please do this for us, an Open Firmware reset. Hold down "command + option + OF" and at the prompts, type the following (follow with return after each). The final command should boot - I'd want a good OS 8.6/9.x CD to boot from ready.

> reset-nvram
> set-defaults
> reset-all

Of course it could be the cpu is gone, or power supply.

If you use FireWire, you need a FW PCI card on these. And you can't boot from FW.

Very glad to see you familiarized yourself with G3-Zone and the rest. I and others own and work heavily on B&Ws. I have enough spare parts to outfit three B&Ws at this point.

While the UltimateRez might work, its 8MB and slow and doesn't have new drivers, while the ATI Rage 128 was a decent card in its day, the ATI Radeon is the last and best PCI Mac card available.

Any chance of returning as DOA? or was it cheap "as is" and prepared to upgrade if necessary? There are G3 cpu upgrades from 400-900 MHz or G4/450-1000.

The cuda reset button is the one closest to the battery, round button in square.

Was the FoxConn cable and terminator damaged? It sounded like the terminator (which is stabled on) came off, not a good sign.

http://forums.macgurus.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_confused.gif

ne\'er-do-well
10-12-2003, 06:34 PM
<< You cannot boot a B&W from a USB or Firewire device, the code is not built into the rom. So you aren't missing anything by not having tried that. >>

Thank you - Good to learn.


<< The button nearest the battery is the CUDA, the other is a power on switch that is for bench powering without the mobo in a case. No problem if you hit it except it should boot up the computer. There is no PMU in B&W and early G4 Macs. >>

More learning - thanks.


<< I would really get that machine down to bare next. I would remove the 2940U2B and replace the Apple ram and try and boot from the OS CD that it shipped with, 8.5.1 if you can find it. That B&W will not boot OS9 unless it had the firmware update and there was also a firmware update for the 2940U2B. You may be stuck and have to assume that the update was made if you do not have a copy. >>

OK - I have a disk that will boot into MacOS 8.6.


<< I would do an Open Firmware reset the very next time you try and boot. I do not expect that to work if you do not get a startup chime though, so pull everything except ram and CD cable and after hitting power hold the Command+Option+O+F keys. This will put you in the Open Firmware interface. At the '>' prompt type:

reset-nvram
Return
set-defaults
Return
reset-all
Return and hopefully your computer chimes again. The Open Firmware is on the motherboard rom and does not need any drive connected to boot to. Until you can get booted into Open Firmware don't even bother with any other procedures involving OS installs and hard drives or CDs. >>

(1) I just disconnected everything but the video and the keyboard.

SCSI card pulled, ATA disconnected, only one stick of RAM.

Hit the power-on button then held down the Command+Option+O+F keys for about 60 seconds (one thousand, two thousand . . . ).

No change in behaviour.

Never got to any Open Firmware interface.

Screen just remains dark.

(2) Then pulled the video card - no PCI cards or SCSI or ATA input, now. And exchanged the sticks of RAM - now using different RAM slots each time.

No change in behaviour.

(3) Hooked the CDROM back up and attempted to load MacOS 8.6.

No change in behaviour.


I.e. - no startup chime, no sound of accessing a MacOS, and completely dark screen each time.


<< I have a copy of the G3 service manual on my iDisk, you can go through it and analyze what LEDs are lit and where the problem might be. Manual >>

LEDS?

Where are these LEDS?


<< Quis Custodiet Custodes Ipsos? >>

MSNBC?


Rick.


Thanks again,

ne'er-do-well

ricks
10-12-2003, 06:56 PM
Oh god I hope not, PMSNBC that is. I sure hope for better than that!

¬?The LEDs are all over the motherboard. The service manual will tell what each is telling you.

Rick

Quis Custodiet Custodes Ipsos?

ne\'er-do-well
10-12-2003, 07:39 PM
eric47 wrote:

<Let's try the pmu reset again.>>

OK. (Rick's statement on PMU noted.)

Unplugged. Machine idle for 2+ minutes (got impatient). Pressed S5 - held down for 20 seconds (would one second suffice?). Did not press more than once.

Plugged in again and started up - no change in machine behaviour.


<< That flat ribbon cable runs from the front panel to the motherboard. With the machine unplugged, disconnect the flat ribbon cable from the motherboard. Plug in the machine. You should still be able to startup your Mac with the power key on the keyboard. >>

Unplugged machine. Static precautions. Pulled small ribbon cable from motherboard. Could not pull the Molex next to it - it was in pretty firmly. Plugged machine back in.

Machine - appropriately - would not power up from the front power button, but would from keyboard.

Otherwise no change in machine behaviour, except I had to turn it off from the UPS power switch.

Hooked the small ribbon cable back up - all is now as it was before.


Eric.


Thanks for tryin' -


ne'er-do-well

__________________________________________________ _______


LEDS on the motherboard:


(1) Everything disconnected except one stick of RAM -

Three lights glowing green: DS7, DS8, DS9.

(2) Everything connected, internal and external:

Four lights glowing green: DS1, DS7, DS8, DS9.


Looks like it's the manual for me -

But thoughts are certainly welcome in the meantime.


<< Quis Custodiet Custodes Ipsos? >>

With Ashcroft at the tiller - why worry?

ne\'er-do-well
10-12-2003, 08:29 PM
<< I'll take some stabs. Obviously you want to know if you were sold a "dud" or not. >>

Yup. Precisely.

It sure would be nice if it were salvageable.


<< RAM: you want PC100 8 ns 125 MHz. Crucial is best bet and safe. They also sell/recommend PC133 for the Yosemite that works fine, and is slightly cheaper. Even the RAM that Apple originally sold was 10 ns and would cause crashes (but only couple times a week under full load that would max out memory). >>

Understood and appreciated. I am aware that there were apparently problems with the RAM on some B&Ws - both Apple and third party RAM.

The RAM on this machine is 2.2.2. I believe that the information on the chips indicates that it is 8ns RAM.

So - it looks to me that by the time Apple put this particular Revision 2 / 450 MHz server together - probably fairly late in the B&W development cycle - it had finally gotten it's act together.


<< 2940U2B: both channels work. But I defer to Mark and SoftRAID on all things >>

But do both work at the same time?

If so, I must have misunderstood.


<< Okay card, works better with Granite cable and adapter. The B&W today, might as well stick with ATA card and drives, or SATA, rather than SCSI. Those are old, slow Cheetahs in there that don't compete with today's drives. >>

Understood and appreciated.

The machine will be dedicated to a single application.

Said application runs plenty fast on MacOS 8.6 on a 120 MHz PPC 7200.

Heck - it worked fine on my running on MacOS 7.5.5 on my 25 Mhz Mac 660AV.

MacOS 8.6, the application and all the data take up less than 500 MB of space on a 2 GB 50-pin SCSI hard drive running on the PPC' 7200's native 10 MB/sec internal SCSI bus. I can back-up the whole thing onto one CD.

The only reason I am attempting to update this set-up (it ain't broke - why fix it?) is because the software people are making noises about discontinuing support for MacOS 8.5.1 and Mac OS 8.6.

Can you imagine that?

They say that they will likely support MacOS 9.x.x for years to come.

Their software has not yet been updated to MacOS X and does not use the Altivec engine of the G4.

So I figure a relatively fast G3 with a pair of RAID 1 mirrored drives will be a very good solution for our situation.

And these SCSI drives on the B&W server - though not as fast as state of the art SATA drives - should be plenty faster than those in my PPC 7200. And I can mirror two of them to keep my data that much safer and keep a third drive as a diagnostic drive and as a spare.

Of course, I would check all the drives out carefully first. TechTool Pro, Norton, and Hard Disk Toolkit all stand at the ready: SoftRAID would be the next purchase if the drives otherwise test out well.

If the machine worked, that is.


<< Please do this for us, an Open Firmware reset. Hold down "command + option + OF" and at the prompts, type the following (follow with return after each). The final command should boot - I'd want a good OS 8.6/9.x CD to boot from ready.

> reset-nvram
> set-defaults
> reset-all >>

Didn't work. No prompts.

Screen stayed dark.

No change in computer behaviour.


<< Of course it could be the cpu is gone, or power supply. >>

I guess so.

Tear in my eye.


<< If you use FireWire, you need a FW PCI card on these. And you can't boot from FW. >>

Thanks.

No firewire.


<< Very glad to see you familiarized yourself with G3-Zone and the rest. I and others own and work heavily on B&Ws. I have enough spare parts to outfit three B&Ws at this point. >>

Any more suggestions are welcome.


<< While the UltimateRez might work, its 8MB and slow and doesn't have new drivers, while the ATI Rage 128 was a decent card in its day, the ATI Radeon is the last and best PCI Mac card available. >>

Understood.

This machine will just be for office software - typing numbers and letters into an application. 2D at 256 colours is fine - we used to run it at 16 colours, but the newer MacOSs took that option away from us. :-(

I only mentioned the Ulimate Rez for troubleshooting purposes.

Even then, I don't see a reason to try it.


<< Any chance of returning as DOA? or was it cheap "as is" and prepared to upgrade if necessary? There are G3 cpu upgrades from 400-900 MHz or G4/450-1000. >>

Yup.

The return route is making more and more sense.

I just thought I'd try everything I could before heading in that direction.


<< The cuda reset button is the one closest to the battery, round button in square. >>

Got it - thanks.


<< Was the FoxConn cable and terminator damaged? It sounded like the terminator (which is stabled on) came off, not a good sign. >>

Terminator is solidly on the cable.

No obvious damage.

It does fit into a plastic clip. It was out of the clip when the machine arrived, so I gingerly (anti-static precautions and gentle finger-work) put it back in the clip.


TZ.


Thanks,

ne'er-do-well

ne\'er-do-well
10-12-2003, 08:46 PM
Rick,


I must have been unclear.

In regard to the manual - I have been reading through it looking for the LED information for this poor ailing B&W server, but the manual you were kind enough to aim me to seems to be for beige boxes - 233-333 MHz machines which came with MacOS 8.1.

Any clues as to the whereabouts of a Macintosh G3 B&W server manual?


Thanks again,

ne'er-do-well

TZ
10-13-2003, 07:53 AM
Sounding like the COMPUTER FROM HELL

I think that even to do an OpenFirmware reset, that there has to be a disk drive. Either SCSI or ATA, and best if it is ID0 (SCSI) or Master on ATA.

It's amazing but Apple NEVER shipped a SINGLE Yosemite system (as of July 1999) that had the proper DRAMs installed. It was all 10 ns.

http://forums.macgurus.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_mad.gif

Apple Dev Notes (http://developer.apple.com/documentation/Hardware/Developer_Notes/Macintosh_CPUs-G3/PowerMacintosh_G3/frameset.html) manual & pdf.

[This message was edited by TZ on Mon October 13, 2003 PT at 8:11.]

ricks
10-13-2003, 08:41 AM
¬?Sorry about that. The correct manual is Here (http://homepage.mac.com/rstephens/.Public/powermac_g3_blue.white.pdf)

Rick

Quis Custodiet Custodes Ipsos?

Costa
10-13-2003, 10:20 AM
Eric,

this is the full spec sheet (in ".pdf" format) for your OEM RAM sticks: Micron Technology Inc. - Synchronous DRAM Module (unbuffered) (http://download.micron.com/pdf/datasheets/modules/SD8_16C8_16x64AG_A.pdf).
It bears the best specs for your kind of machine (PC-100, CL 2-2-2) excpet for the 10ns response on RAM cells charges from the Memory Controller. Like TZ said, 8ns should be better.
BUT, if you are planning to run just OS9.x, it should be alright.

IMHO, you've got top-noch RAM sticks with that machine and I would suggest to hang on to them.

May I put through a very stupid question to you?
Have you checked that the voltage switch at the back of your computer is properly set, to reflect the kind of voltage you are using in your place?

I know, I know ..... it's very silly, but.... I just thought that perhaps due to the handling the switch got accidentally moved.

If I've got further ideas, I'll post them to you, but I see that both TZ and Rick have you "covered".

My humble 2 ¬˘ worth.

Costa

P.S.: BTW, this is the official Apple B&W PowerMac G3 manual (http://manuals.info.apple.com/Apple_Support_Area/Manuals/desktops/0340687APWRMACG3SU.PDF) in ".pdf" format. HTH

ne\'er-do-well
10-14-2003, 09:17 PM
Dejected.

Facing defeat.

You know - there comes a time to just give it up and throw in that towel.

To admit defeat.

I figured I would give it one last shot and then box it up and return to sender.

One last shot.

___________________________________


Gentlemen:


We have a start-up tone.


It was soft - it was tentative - it was like a young girl's first time.

But it was definitely there.

Or was it?

Had I just imagined the whole thing?

Have I been working too hard on this?

Should I - should I actually just go out and get a life?

__________________________________________________ _____


Turned the B&W off, attached monitor, restarted.

We have start-up tone.

We have grey screen.

We have flashing question mark alternating with a Mac face.

No - no - I - I can't bear to look -

We have MacOS X!

(Music, please)


Now - I do not know my way around OS X at all - only seen it once at a computer store - so I have no idea how many hard drives might be working, what kind of shape they are in, etc.

But I will mosey around and see what I can see.

Suggestions are welcome.


Thanks, all!


What did it?

I do not know for certain. Most likely a combination of the contributions from the members of this board, the manuals, perseverance and luck.

And most importantly - taking a break for the day and doing other things.

"Resetting the Logic Board" - the 293 Manual gives two different methods - one on page 52 and another on page 201. I tried both.

Plus learning about the different LEDs from the Service manual - than you, Rick.

The most proximate matter was a balky CDROM that I was wrestling with with a paper clip - the CDROM was winning - I had gently pulled the tray out all the way with the computer turned off (it never did respond to the CDROM button) and the tray did not want to go back in. Pulled it out farther than I had previously - i.e., all the way. And it would not go back in. I do not like to force moving parts, so I turned the computer on (with no CD in the tray). The tray then closed without problem but the DS1 LED (which signals ATA disc activity) - which had previously been lit whenever the computer was on, except perhaps when I had the ATA cable unplugged (I don't know, I was not LED aware at that time) - that DS1 LED was no longer on.

And as it started up, there was a chime. The only chime in five days.

So - turned the machine off, unplugged the ATA cable from the motherboard, turned it on and the thing chimed, grey-screened, and booted up!

I am going to enjoy this a while before I turn it off again.

Maybe I will never turn it off again. ;-)


Unfortunately I canna TechTool around as the ATA CDROM is now disabled (ATA cable has been disconnected from the motherboard, as described above). But who knows - maybe there is something to be found on these drives . . .

Looks like the next hardware steps (after exploring what I can on these drives) will be to confirm if the CDROM and or cable is the problem - if these matters can be duplicated. If so - I do have other ATA cables and I do have a Plextor 48/24/48 ATA CDRW and a Lite-On 48/24/48 ATA CDRW - maybe one or the other will work. Anybody know?

There - I just came up for a little air and to let y'all know how things are going - now I am taking a really deep breath and diving right back in.


Who needs a life?


Thanks, all,

ne'er-do-well

ricks
10-15-2003, 08:19 AM
¬?Now this is COOL. Go man go. http://forums.macgurus.com/images/dance.gif

RIck

Quis Custodiet Custodes Ipsos?

Costa
10-15-2003, 08:49 AM
Dear ne'er-do-well,

Now .... that IS good news!


<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> I do have other ATA cables and I do have a Plextor 48/24/48 ATA CDRW and a Lite-On 48/24/48 ATA CDRW - maybe one or the other will work. Anybody know? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

If I well remember, the Lite-On burner should be Mac bootable. Check under XLR8YOURMAC Drive Compatability Database (http://forums.xlr8yourmac.com/drivedb/search.drivedb.lasso), for that.
It is important to be able to boot your Mac from a CD drive.
Make sure it is set to "Master" on the IDE bus, as this Apple's Knowledgebase article (http://kbase.info.apple.com/viewdoc.jsp?dialogID=26273518&searchMode=gs&docID=106728&sliceID=&sessionID=|26271512) specifies: otherwise you won't be able to instal OSX on another drive, booting the system from the installation CD.

Nice work, my friend!! http://forums.macgurus.com/images/dance.gif

That is sure a solid server machine, still today (Rick, if I'm not mistaken, you should still have yours operative, don't you?).

Go 'n get your life back!

Costa

Take it to the Max, Mac!

ne\'er-do-well
10-16-2003, 06:24 PM
CDROM - the Apple CD 32 X Mashita (likely stock) - manufactured June, 1999 (the only thing I have seen on this machine with a date on it) - driver version 1.4 - is now working fine. I can now boot and utilize troubleshooting software from the CDROM. CDROM eject button now works - previously I had to use a paper clip.

Computer will now shut down properly from the keyboard - USB or ABD. USB and ABD mice - three button and one button - both work.

Can now zap PRAM from the keyboard with the appropriate chimes - previously no zap and no chimes.

When started up with all RAM pulled - no RAM on board, whatsoever - during the Power-On Self Test, I now get a single beep. Previously, there was no beep at all.

All LEDs on the motherboard are now acting as they are supposed to - very differently from their prior appearance (that 293 page manual is most illuminating).

On booting from the TechTool Pro 2.5.2 CD (MacOS 9.0.0) with all extensions off, run in Expert mode with NO writing, repair, or optimization active (i.e., in diagnostic mode without messing up anything) - all hardware tests out fine. I was particularly interested in the RAM results: run at "Intensity - Maximum" through everything except "Minor March" (33 days) and "Major March" (months), the RAM tested out fine. I am aware that such tests are just a tool - not an end-all and be-all - but possibly helpful, particularly if the RAM had not passed the test. All video and VRAM tested out fine. The three SCSI hard drives test out fine (read only). The only thing that TechTool did not seem to like was some of the software - bundle bits, etc. - which is typical of both TechTool and Norton. I did not "repair."

Are there any other software RAM testers out there that anyone might like to recommend? I would be happy to run one overnight, but 33 days / months is a little much, even for me.

Norton DD 6.0 booted from the SystemWorks (original) CD into MacOS 9.1. Hard drives test out fine - read only. Get Info on the drives indicates no bad user blocks. All was well except that NDD, like TTP, did not like some of the software (bundle bits) - the usual - I ignored it's entreaties for "repair."

The B&W is now showing no weird behaviours and no inappropriate test results. None.

My conjecture is that it was not the wrestling with the CD-ROM that fixed it - this was probably actually a result of the repair, not the cause. Cause of repair was likely the last motherboard reset I did, just prior to wrestling with the CDROM. Though as to why this particular motherboard reset worked - probably the sixth one I have done - I do not know. Probably some tightening of something on the motherboard prior to this particular reset. Just a guess, of course. I do kinda wonder what sent it off the deep-end in the first place.

Maybe - maybe it was homesick.

How would you feel about working hard for all of your life, doing your best, knowing you are appreciated - only to be cast aside and sold, put in a box, and sent 'most way across the country?

Not even a thank you.

How would you feel?


I have - I have tried to treat it well in it's new home.


I think I have a keeper.

Thank you, MacGurus.

__________________________________________________ ___________________

Current issues:

(1) Firmware updates: I believe that there is a B&W firmware update (is this the hardware firmware update that blew away some people's RAM?), a PCI SCSI card firmware update, and a CDROM firmware update. For all I know there may be other firmware updates as well - or I may be confusing some of the above with updates for other machines.

I am not sure how to figure out whether or not the appropriate firmware updates have already been applied.

I will note that the computer has MacOSs 9.1 and MacOS 10.2 on it, and clicking on things seems to work, but I have not explored either of them in depth - I plan to triple erase the hard drives and put my own stuff on the drives. But the current existence of these OSs on the hard drives may provide a clue in regard to the firmware that must be present to those who know their B&Ws. Which I do not.

Apple System Profiler states:

(a) PCI Card . . . Slot J9 . . . SCSI Card . . . Card ROM # 1.2

Does this mean that a 1.2 Firmware update has been applied? If so - is that a good thing?

(b) Mashita CD-ROM / Driver version 1.4.

Does that refer to a firmware update version 1.4?

Any other places to look for evidence of any firmware updates?


(2) The RAM issue:

My thanks to TZ and to Costa and to Ricks. However, I take full responsibility for my own inability to figure out Apple on this matter.

I do understand that there may be some level of debate/disagreement - I just want to understand where the boundaries of the discussion may lie. As I understand it (today, anyway):

Apparently I have, for what was shipped with these machines by Apple, pretty good quality CAS 2.2.2 10ns RAM. But that is not good enough for a B&W, particularly if going beyond 9.x. Even the 293 page B&W Service manual, on page 4, specifically states that RAM for the B&W must be " . . . rated at 125 MHz (8ns) or faster . . ." And yet, the B&Ws were shipped by Apple with 10ns Apple RAM.

Left hand didn't know what the right hand was doing?

Manual was written/updated only after all the B&Ws shipped?

Whatever.

I am planning on taking the B&W to 256 MB of RAM running MacOS 9.2.2 - this is what the software people recommend I use as the most stable configuration for their software on my machine (their software seems to prefer MacOS 9.2.2. over MacOS 9.1 for some reason - I conjecture that 9.2.2 is probably where they have been focussing their debugging efforts).

The question is: is my current RAM good enough for 9.2.2?

This machine will be devoted to running one modest program. No other programs running. No Photoshop, no Quark, etc.

Not that it means a whole lot, but their software - I understand that it is the same software that I will be using on the B&W - is currently running fine on my PPC 7200 120 running MacOS 8.6 on a mere 64 MB of RAM. Heck, it ran plenty fast on MacOS 7.5.5 on 8 MB of RAM on my PPC 660AV - but that was back until December, 1999.

The changes to the software over time have been changes to adapt to new MacOSs - the software, itself, has not really been getting that much bigger - nor has it really been demanding that much more RAM - over time.

They now recommend 128 MB for a client machine and 256 MB for a server. Different tech support people cannot seem to agree if my lone machine is a client or a server or both - so I figure I will just put in 256 MB and not worry about it. The program itself only requests somewhere around 5-8 MB of RAM in the Get Info box.

I suppose I need to get the B&W into MacOS 9.2.2 with a compatible software RAM tester and just see what happens. But I have no idea if the results would have real-world meaning.

If the "good" 10ns RAM does not cut it in MacOS 9.2.2, how will I know?

Symptoms? Stress tests?

Is there an overall consensus answer already well known to experienced B&W owners?

Or is this a debated matter?


(3) Switching slots on the PCI cards.

I am intending to benchmark the SCSI drives with the ATTO benchmark utility. I was going to try putting the PCI SCSI card in the faster video card slot while switching the video card into a slower PCI slot. I figured that I do not put a lot of stress on an video card - typing and such - no 3D - but the video card slot would probably provide a fatter pipeline for the input and output of the three SCSI drives than a regular PCI slot.

In my recent reading, however - either on the Apple web site or in the big B&W manual - the need to put the video card only in the video card slot was emphasized. This seems to shoot down my idea of simply switching the two cards.

Could someone please clarify this matter for me?

Thank you.


(4) Open Firmware

Rick earlier wrote (and TZ seconded):

&lt;&lt; I would do an Open Firmware reset the very next time you try and boot. I do not expect that to work if you do not get a startup chime though, so pull everything except ram and CD cable and after hitting power hold the Command+Option+O+F keys. This will put you in the Open Firmware interface. At the '&gt;' prompt type:

reset-nvram
Return
set-defaults
Return
reset-all
Return and hopefully your computer chimes again. The Open Firmware is on the motherboard rom and does not need any drive connected to boot to. Until you can get booted into Open Firmware don't even bother with any other procedures involving OS installs and hard drives or CDs. &gt;&gt;

(a) Should I still do this? (I am game if it will not hurt anything - I might actually learn something).

(b) Uh - once you are in the Open Firmware interface, how do you get out? (I can see me having to turn off the machine from the UPS). :-(

(c) I know nothing of Open Firmware - Macs for Dummies doesn't seem to have a full chapter on this. :-)

Nor did I see anything of this in the big B&W manual.

Where can I learn something about Open Firmware?


I feel like I now know more about troubleshooting the B&W than I know about any of my previous Macs - and I have only had the B&W for less than a week.

I assume Open Firmware is more good stuff to know.


(5) PRAM batteries:

This is pretty minor stuff, but:

Are any brands of PRAM batteries - in this case 3.6 V Lithium - better than others? I have heard one brand claim to this effect.

I may as well buy a couple just to start this machine off well and to replace the one in my current Mac that I have been trading back and forth with the B&W.

No big hurry. Just good practice.

Sources?

(6) Modem and Zip drive - none currently, but I might as well fill-er-up. Any suggestions as to which ones and sources?

(7) Current project is to get a bootable CDRW up and running, but I think it best to pursue that in a subsequent thread. The title of this thread - "'New' Macintosh B&W 450 won't boot" - no longer applies. :-)


Thanks all,

ne'er-do-well

[This message was edited by ne'er-do-well on Thu October 16, 2003 PT at 18:36.]

rwm
10-16-2003, 07:43 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>When started up with all RAM pulled - no RAM on board, whatsoever - during the Power-On Self Test, I now get a single beep. Previously, there was no beep at all. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

It is a long post and I may have missed something - but you need at least 1 stick of RAM to boot up. Can't think of anyone better than TZ or Ricks to be helping you.

Good luck

ricks
10-16-2003, 08:17 PM
¬?I thought for sure we had a limit set for the length of a single post... http://forums.macgurus.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif



¬?There are several ram test utilities. However your RAM will pass them fine and still have issues running in OSX because they are 10NS. OSX just pushes ram farther than 9.x or earlier.

¬?Apple shipped with 10NS because 8 NS was cutting edge and bloody hard to keep in the pipeline. If there is one thing you learn it is that Apple's customers would rather have broken crap on time than perfection delivered late. (shame on us!!!)

¬?There is no downside to doing an Open Firmware reset. The last command reset-all will restart your computer, it'll chime again. That is how you get out of Open Firmware. OF resets can be useful when you have undiagnosed problems. Never fear just doing one just in case it might help. It resets the roms on the motherboard to default factory settings. This is good since that is most likely the setting you want. The only setting that gets screwed up is the startup disk. That gets set to Bus0, Disk0, Partition1. Only problem is when you do not have a system folder or even a drive at that location. I usually solve that by making sure I have Disk Warrior or another bootable CD in the CD-ROM drive and when the computer chimes after the OF reset I just hold the 'C' key and boot to a CD. Besides, I usually have to run DW after a OF reset since I am almost always having some weirdness from hard drive setups I am testing, DW is the next step.

¬?Keep at it. That B&W is going to make you a real computer yet.

Rick

Quis Custodiet Custodes Ipsos?

unclemac
10-16-2003, 09:27 PM
Congrats on your success! As a BW owner and a "assistant" guru (self-appointed http://forums.macgurus.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif ), I've been watching with baited breath as the Real Gurus do their stuff.

Firmware updates:

Pretty straight forward. Start here (http://docs.info.apple.com/article.html?artnum=86117) to get up to speed. The important bits: firmware updates are required before installing OS 10, and you have to download the update and run your mac from a HD with OS 9 (not 10, and not booted to CD).

You can check your Apple System Profiler for your current firmware version number, or can download and run the correct version. firmware updates always validate your current version number and either automatically proceed, or tell you "your firmware is up to date!" and not run.

My BW 350 Rev 1 (no factory SCSI) has current firmware, and reads (in ASP, system profile tab):
Boot ROM info_______1.1f4


<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> is this the hardware firmware update that blew away some people's RAM? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

There was one about 2-3 years back, but as I recall, the real problem turned out to be that after the update, some machines were less tolerant of RAM that was out of spec... Or in other words, some RAM that *did* seem to work before the update, though not up to minimum Apple specs, no longer worked (machine not booting, or constant/severe crashes) after the update. I *don't* remember if BWs were effected specifically; I though it was affecting most model macs...

Not really a case of a firmware update trahsing RAM, but of detecting bad/incorrect RAM.

My understanding is that Apple has continued to raise the bar since then for memory standards - less forgiving of inferior/incorrect RAM - especially with OS 10.

Some say that bad RAM is the number 1 cause of crashes in OS 10, and many have noted that RAM that worked fine in OS 9, was not stable in OS 10, with everything else the same. Have seen it myself on two different machines. Pretty wild.

Good - correct - RAM means no worries regarding both stability issues, and possible firmware update issues.

So, I like to think of OS 10 as the ultimate poorman's memory tester. http://forums.macgurus.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

__________________

Charlie Don't Surf!

[This message was edited by unclemac on Fri October 17, 2003 PT at 5:11.]

TZ
10-17-2003, 07:25 AM
If you search for Open Firmware on the forums, on Apple Developer, on Google, you'll find some stuff. "mac-boot" will also get you out, you can eject CD.

About a year or two ago I posted a lot of info on the boot process and open firmware. Linux was what triggered my "need to know" and how to get Yaboot or Bootx to dual or triple boot (before Apple had the "Option" key startupmanager included into the G4/AGP's OpenFirmware.

OF is written in Forth, looks like "DOS" in some ways, lets you view the folder/directory structure and more.

It also contains the Device Tree, device aliases, and Device Directory. A reset of OF forces a rebuild/rewrite of what PCI cards and addresses are present. Resets the boot path (setenv, use printenv to see what it currently is, then write it down).

As for the RAM, 10 ns would cause Internet Explorer to crash randomly couple times a week it turns out. But so did the way IE update and write to the Internet Preference file, and the way it shared the cache.waf file with Outlook (since then they each use their own .waf file but still "fight" over the Internet Pref file w/o respecting "write-lock" and "read-only" status, something that OS X is better at enforcing.

OS X is the best RAM test. it uses every ounce. Dimm First Aid helps. And there are RAM utilities. May as well have 256MB of Crucial 8 ns if you can swing it. Give the 10ns to a Beige G3.

There were other questions (thinking out loud? editorializing? ruminating?) but the above was what stood out.

Open Firmware reset is mentioned here:

http://docs.info.apple.com/article.html?artnum=42642

[This message was edited by TZ on Fri October 17, 2003 PT at 8:44.]

TZ
10-17-2003, 07:32 AM
There was a firmware update to allow installing OS 9, which also blocked using a G4 cpu upgrade (Apple wanted to sell the Yikes! G4 which was, after all, only a Yosemite in disguise http://forums.macgurus.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

You look to be 'current' and your Adaptec 2940U2B 1.2 is current. The SCSI card qualifies your system as "server."

ACard has a nice under $200 SCSI card that hanles LVD Ultra160 and not limited to Ultra2, as well as being supported under Jaguar (yours isn't, but may or may not work). Otherwise, Serial ATA or ATA is your most economical option for drives.

Costa
10-18-2003, 04:28 AM
Dear ne'er-do-well,

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> Apparently I have, for what was shipped with these machines by Apple, pretty good quality CAS 2.2.2 10ns RAM. But that is not good enough for a B&W, particularly if going beyond 9.x. Even the 293 page B&W Service manual, on page 4, specifically states that RAM for the B&W must be " . . . rated at 125 MHz (8ns) or faster . . ." And yet, the B&Ws were shipped by Apple with 10ns Apple RAM.

Left hand didn't know what the right hand was doing?

Manual was written/updated only after all the B&Ws shipped? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The fact is that at the time only PC-133 SDRAM modules were built to the 8ns standard and there were very few of them just for top-of-the-market workstations.

Still today is difficult to find PC-100 SDRAM modules bearing the 8ns spec response on RAM cell charges; I haven't found any so far.

The only SDRAM modules I have seen around capable of such fast response are those carrying the PC-133 spec but which are backward compatible to the PC-100 standard.

The predominant factor that determines the correct RAM for your machine is the Memory Controller.
Some of the B&W G3's (aka "Yosemite") RAM needs are discussed in this Apple forums FAQ: RAM expansions with GRACKLE based Macs (http://discussions.info.apple.com/WebX?128@241.ui6la6JRhXH.8@.4aaa63e3).

Like "TZ" explained you, one place where you can fetch the correct SDRAM modules for your Yosemite, is Crucial Technology (http://www.crucial.com/store/listparts.asp?Mfr%2BProductline=Apple%2BPower+Mac&mfr=Apple&cat=RAM&model=Power+Mac+G3+Server+Yosemite+[Blue+and+White%29&submit=Go), which the commercial arm of MICRON TECHNOLOGY Inc. (http://www.micron.com/products/).
Part # MT16LSDT3264AG-13E_ (http://download.micron.com/pdf/datasheets/modules/SD8_16C16_32x64AG_C.pdf) is the typical Micron's module which, being backward compatable to the PC-100 standard, will performe correctly inside your machine.
Other producers of good RAM for your machine, are:
<UL TYPE=SQUARE><LI>Kingston Technology (http://www.ec.kingston.com/ecom/configurator/modelsinfo.asp?SysID=+8219+&distributor=0&submit1=Search), which produces SDRAM module part # KVR133X64C3Q/256 (http://www.valueram.com/datasheets/KVR133X64C3Q_256.pdf); however, Kingstone states clearly in it's site that " PC133 modules MAY NOT BE BACKWARD COMPATIBLE to PC100 machines
Systems using the 440BX, 810 or 810e chipsets should only use PC100 memory".
Kingstone is considered by many being on of the top world RAM manufacturesrs and they have signed an Industry alliance with Apple:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> Kingston is an Authorized Apple Macintosh Developer. Kingston designs memory products for Apple¬Ć iMacs, eMacs, iBooks, PowerBooks, Power Mac's and Xserve servers per Apple specifications. Kingston is provided with seed units from Apple to test and qualify prior to release of the systems from Apple and has access to Apple testing and compatibility labs.
Additionally, Kingston is the featured memory supplier for the Macintosh products guide on Apple's website. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
<LI>HYNIX Semiconductor (http://www.hynix.com:80/eng/) produces ALSO very good quality SDRAM modules for our Macs; so much so, that Apple shipped many B&W G3s with their modules fitted as standard. Their part # HYM71V32655A(L)T8-8 (http://www.hynix.com/datasheet/pdf/module/[1)HYM71V32655AT8.pdf), for example, is simply perfect for your machine, as (from page 12 of the Data Sheet) the device is able to operate at 125MHz, with 8ns response, while keeping a CAS Latency of 2-2-2 when operating at 100MHz.
<LI> SAMSUNG Semiconductor (http://www.samsung.com/Products/Semiconductor/common/product_list.jsp?family_cd=DRM020202) used to build good quality SDRAM modules for our machines, but, as you can read from their web site (EOL), they have stopped producing PC-133 modules with the specs we are looking for.
[/list]
The above are what I believe being the top 4 world manufacturesrs of correct SDRAM modules for the Yosemite.

Some of them will allow you to buy directly their products from their sites. Some others need to be acquired through RAM resellers.

I hope the above will give you some directions to worl onto.

Costa

Take it to the Max, Mac!

ne\'er-do-well
10-19-2003, 07:46 PM
Things I now understand:

(1) RAM: the 10 ns RAM will likely do fine in MacOS 9.2.2. If I get any flakiness, however, amongst other troubleshooting I will strongly consider pulling the current RAM entirely and replacing it with appropriate 256 MB of 8ns (or faster) CAS 2-2-2 RAM. All RAM used in this machine is to be identical - might as well buy it all at once. No mix and match.

If I decide to seriously pursue MacOS 10.x.x or Linux on this machine, I should plan on replacing the current RAM beforehand with matched faster RAM - probably at least 512 MB (two sticks), considering the way *nix uses RAM.


(2) Firmare updates: all is well. As per the Apple System Profiler:

(a) Boot ROM info: 1.1f4

(b) PCI &gt; SCSI-2 &gt; ROM# 1.2.


(3) Open Firmware: not a small topic! I plan to pursue this after adding a CDRW, Zip Drive, modem, and benchmarking the hard drives. But now I know where to begin - my thanks.

__________________________________________________ __________

Remaining questions:

(1) RAM: how to obtain Hynix HYM71V32655A(L)T8-8 SDRAM?

The link here leads me to &lt;&lt; The requested URL /datasheet/pdf/module/[1)HYM71V32655AT8.pdf was not found on this server &gt;&gt;. When I search the Hynix web site for the recommended RAM, I get is &lt;&lt; There is no result that satisfies keyword HYM71V32655A(L)T8-8. Try another keyword. &gt;&gt; Google gave no results, either.

Micron and Crucial each look fine. As has been stated, Kingston looks like it could possibly be a problem in regard to the &lt;&lt; PC133 modules MAY NOT BE BACKWARD COMPATIBLE to PC100 machines &gt;&gt; - considering that there are alternatives available, I probably would not take the chance.

My thanks for the very specific information on RAM modules. Not something to act on today, but good for getting those ducks in a row.


(2) TZ wrote: &lt;&lt; There was a firmware update to allow installing OS 9, which also blocked using a G4 cpu upgrade (Apple wanted to sell the Yikes! G4 which was, after all, only a Yosemite in disguise &gt;&gt;

Uh - does this mean that this machine will never be upgradeable to a G4 processor? :-(


(3) Would an Adaptec 2903B PCI SCSI card (10MB/sec - internal 50-pin, external 25-pin) work adequately in this B&W running Mac OS 9.2.2? Any firmware updates needed? I just need it to transfer some data off an external SCSI Zip 100 drive - this will not be for everyday heavy lifting.

Alernatively, would an Adaptec 2930 PCI SCSI card (20 MB/sec - internal 50-pin, external micro 50-pin) be a better choice? I have external 50-pin to 25-pin and external 50-pin to 50-pin SCSI cables (the latter for SCSI device "daisy-chaining") available in the parts bin, but could someone tell me if the latter are "micro 50-pin" or no?


(4) Is the Global Village internal 56K modem for the B&W a good choice? Any special software needed (I may be buying a bare modem without software if this will work via just hardware and MacOS 9.2.2 alone).


Still up and running. Amazin'!


Thanks, All -

ne'er-do-well

ricks
10-19-2003, 09:34 PM
¬?So I had upgraded the firmware to run OS9 and then redid the firmware with XLR8's G4 updater so I could run a G4. No problem ever. But a G3 will not run a G4 processor with the cache enabled without a firmware update from whoever maketh the cpu.

Rick

Glad to hear she's running so sweet!

Quis Custodiet Custodes Ipsos?

Costa
10-20-2003, 08:38 AM
Dear ne-'er-do-well,

Yep, ... sorry, I didn't realize that that link I've provided you about HYNIX didn't work.

O.K., try this one here (http://www.hynix.com/datasheet/eng/module/module_default.jsp), and once you are in that page, select under SDRAM --&gt; Unbuffered DIMM, the 256MB size.
You'll be brought to a page listing of technical data sheets about SDRAM modules.
Click on the part number HYM71V32655AT8. On page 12 of the Data Sheet you'll get the SUB-part # HYM71V32655A(L)T8-8, I've provided you with.

See if that works.

Costa

Take it to the Max, Mac!

[This message was edited by Costa on Mon October 20, 2003 PT at 8:49.]