09-18-2003, 12:43 PM
I have a ca. 1999 G4/350 which shipped with a 10gb ATA hard drive. Said HD is about to bite it (at least that's the consensus based on the noise it's making). So the idea is, get a new drive and copy the old drive to it, then trash the old drive. Great, doesn't that sound easy?

So I bought a new Seagate Barracuda 120gb drive and it arrived today. Apparently I didn't buy it "retail" since all I got was the drive, no box, no manual, etc. Never done this kind of thing before, so I read the instructions on the drive case. No workie.

So I called Seagate. They told me to call Apple. I called Apple, but since my machine is LONG out of warranty, they're useless. And he told me to call Seagate. The Apple guy did tell me that my machine likely won't even see a 120gb drive, or at best may only see 10-20gb of it, requiring me to partition it (which accomplishes what, exactly?).

So... here I sit with a nice new drive that's acting like a paper weight, and an old drive that's making funny noises. I'm about ready to toss the whole shootin' match out the window and buy a new G5.

Problems are: 1) I have no idea how the jumper settings on my existing drive are set up (no picture on the drive case), so I don't know if it's set up as "cable select" "master" or what (Apple was less than worthless here). 2) I have no idea if I even do get the new drive installed how to go about partitioning it or otherwise making my elderly G4 recognize it, and 3) I'm about ready to slit my wrists, and if this old drive pukes before I get this sorted out, I'll do it.

If anyone out there in Mac Land really knows this shit (I'm a user, not a computer geek), I'm all ears. Please email me direclty (jrh@pemtel.net) if you can.



09-18-2003, 02:46 PM
1) PUT THE KNIFE DOWN!! http://forums.macgurus.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

2) The drive in your G4 is most likely set to "Master". Set your new drive to "Slave". Most likely the drive has info on it, if not you can get it from Seagate's web site.

3) Your G4 should be all set up to accept the drive as Slave. See how it fits nicely above the orignal drive, with a connector available on the same cable? Go ahead and install the drive (make sure your G4 is off and unplugged; be careful about static electricity - touch the metal case of your G4 before you touch anything around the motherboard), connect the ATA cable and the power cable. Close up the G4 and boot up.

4) The last thing to do is format the drive. The procedure is slightly different for OS 9 and OS 10. If you use both you need to format with 10...

5) Watch the drive mount on your desktop, and say "ahhh, that was easy."

Post back if you need help with the details of formating the drive, transfering your stuff, or have any problems.



Charlie Don't Surf!

09-18-2003, 03:20 PM
?Hey man,

?This stuff just seems really tough until you've done it a few times (or thousand time http://forums.macgurus.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif ) That new 120 gig drive will work PERFECTLY, salesman or technical helper notwithstanding!

?First, here's the jumper settings from Seagate for that drive:


?If the new drive is installed WITH the old drive then set the jumpers for Slave on the new drive (no jumpers). Make sure the old drive has jumpers set for Master with Slave and not Single, depends on the brand of drive whether it takes a change of jumpers but you need to pull it out and read the label. Some drives, like the Barracuda use 'Master' as the only jumper setting, some drives have a 'Single' position as well as a 'Master with Slave' position. You must read the drive to find out.

?Give a shout if you need more, we'll all be here.


Quis Custodiet Custodes Ipsos?

09-18-2003, 04:18 PM
A couple of things. I actually printed out that stuff from the Seagate site, but everything you read is different. Some says set the jumpers to "slave" with no jumper in place, some say other things.

The drive that's in the machine (the original equipment 10gb Western Digital) has no jumper setting diagram visible on top of it. Just all the verbage about power consumption, serial number, etc. Also (and this may be pretty important), I can't see how to physically remove that drive. It's down in the chassis, but there are no screws holding it in place, and I'm fearful of taking a screwdriver and prying it out. The guy at Apple said it "may" (how much confidence does that engender?) just slot into place. Why do I get the feeling he was in high school when I bought this machine in 1999? Anyway, how the heck to you get the old drive out?

Finally, yes PLEASE! I can get the drive in place in the machine (although I didn't get any screws with it, and I don't have any that will fit, so it's going to have to float untiL I get some). I can plug everything in that needs to be plugged in, but I'm open to any and all assistance with formating and partitioning it in OS 9.2.1. I REALLY don't want to screw this up.

God, does this sound like I'm a Windows user, or what? I'm so glad Macs are so easy to use http://forums.macgurus.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Thanks again for all your help folks!


09-18-2003, 04:58 PM
??You sound a bit happier! Like anything, knowing the rules on how stuff works helps a bunch!

?First, if you remove the cables from the drive you will see a single screw right in front of the drive that if you remove it will allow you to pull the tray out. Easy as can be. NO PRYING!!

?Here's a picture of the most common Maxtor drive jumper settings. If you read the serial number off your drive I am happy to check it for sure. (probably got one of them sittin here)


?See if that clears some of this up.


Quis Custodiet Custodes Ipsos?

09-18-2003, 06:14 PM
Thanks to y'all, I got the new drive installed as a slave, the old data copied over (using Retrospect), the old drive removed, the new drive installed as master, and restarted. I then renamed the new drive to the same name as the old drive, which made ATM a lot happier.

But now the bizarre stuff - and you *knew* this was coming, right? First, when I restart, at the very first screen (which is dark-ish grey), I get a file folder icon containing another icon which flashes alternatively with the Mac face and a big fat "?" for a few seconds. The startup then proceeds normally.

Second, why are some (not all) of my Apple Menu Item icons now looking like Simpletext icons? I copied the contents of the drive directly from one to the other, and I even went back and did a restore from my external drive using a backup I'd made this afternoon (again, using Retrospect).

Thanks again!


09-18-2003, 06:45 PM
?THe flashing icon/? is the boot looking for a system folder. Open your preferences folder and select your new hard drive as the startup disk and it'll go away.

?The reason you have some generic icons is some of the resource forks didn't get coped properly. You should run Disk Utility and Repair Permissions. And then you should run Disk Warrior and see if it can repair things. If the resource forks are missing even Disk Warrior can't fix that, reinstall of the offending programs is about the only fix. Disk Warrior at www.alsoft.com (http://www.alsoft.com) A necessary part of every Mac owners library.


Quis Custodiet Custodes Ipsos?

09-18-2003, 08:16 PM
Ricks has you (and me) covered well...

Sweet graphics ricks!

One thing though: Assuming you *are* running OS 9 (or did I miss something and you are running OS 10?), "repairing permissions" is not applicable. You need to rebuild your desktop. Super easy:

Restart and hold down the option and Apple(command) keys, until you get a dialog box that asks if you want to rebuild your desktop. Click "yes", it does it's thing, and you should have the correct icons again.

Other than that, a big ditto on DiskWarrior and running Disk First Aid (OS 9 version of Disk Utility). Assuming you are on 9, you have to excuse ricks info about OS 10; I expect he is a very busy boy these days what with the Gurus retail web site coming back on line, plus some of us have been eye balls deep in OS 10 so long, 9 is not at the front of the brain anymore... right ricks? http://forums.macgurus.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Gosh, don't ya just love Macs? http://forums.macgurus.com/images/dance.gif


Charlie Don't Surf!

[This message was edited by unclemac on Thu September 18, 2003 PT at 20:26.]

09-19-2003, 09:33 AM
Dear Butch,

I see that both Rick and "Unclemac" have covered you well. (BTW, nice work lads! http://forums.macgurus.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif)


<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> 2) I have no idea if I even do get the new drive installed how to go about partitioning it or ..... <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

If you use Apple OS 9.x, you might be interested in these instructions (http://www.sciencequest.org/support/computers/mac/topics/drive_setup.html) on how to use Drive Setup application for initializing and partitioning your drive.

About how best partition the drive .... well .... that's a very personal thing. Each one of us has his/her own way to use and classify work on the computer; so, what would be the ideal partitioning scheme for me, maybe totally unhelpful to others.

However, given the unic attributes of Apple's OSs, you may find the following rule of thumb useful, provided you plan to work with one single hard drive:
<UL TYPE=SQUARE><LI>Consider having enough partitions on it, so as you can install two OS version on two separate partitions: should your main partition run into trouble for any reason, you may have the chance to boot your Mac from the other, allowing to performe the necessary trouble shooting and repairs more easely and effectively.
A second partition for OSs, would allow you to try out new OS versions without the fear of messing up your main trusted one.
In the same way, you could instal older OS versions on a separate partition, so as to run your favourite legacy software.
<LI>You could consider having a separate partition for your applications.
This way, you will be able to try out new software releases without the fear of messing up your data or your OS settings.
<LI>Consider having a separate partition for your data, irrespective from which application it was created with. This will allow you to easely and quickly backup your sensitive data.

Should you like to have some detail instructions on how to swap your internal hard drive, you may find the following links of your interest:
<UL TYPE=SQUARE><LI>Apple Customer Installable Parts instructions (PDF file) (http://www.info.apple.com/usen/cip/pdf/g4/atadrive.pdf) for the PowerMac G4 Systems - Hard drive.
<LI>Apple Customer Installable Parts instructions (QuickTime movie) (http://www.info.apple.com/usen/cip/html/g4ge/g4gbenet-atadrive-cip.mov.html) for the PowerMac G4 Systems - Hard drive.
<LI>Photo illustrated Guide to adding a 2nd IDE drive to Blue and White (rev 2) G3 or G4 Mac systems. (http://www.xlr8yourmac.com/IDE/add_2nd_drive/index.html)



09-21-2003, 02:56 PM
I can't thank you folks enough. After some tense moments, and some *really* worthless "customer support" people at both Apple (especially) and Seagate, I managed to get the new drive in, loaded, and functional. Rebuilding the desktop (which is something I should be doing much more regularly anyway) solved the wierd icon problem, and everything else appears to be functioning normally now.

One other question - is it too late at this point to go back in and partition the drive if I wanted to load OS X on one partition? I can't afford all the software upgrades a full move to OS X would require, but I would like to be able to start learning it for an eventual switchover.

Thanks again!


09-22-2003, 03:28 AM
Dear Butch,

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> ... is it too late at this point to go back in and partition the drive if I wanted to load OS X on one partition? ...<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
It's never too late to do anything (well.... almost anything).

The important thing is you realise that re-partitioning your drive would necesseraly mean you will erase all data on it, thus, unless you performe a complete backup of your data first, you'll loose all it's present contents.

You can performe complete backups of your sensitive data and of all your precious software settings with the aid of dedicated backup applications.

I personally use Dantz's Retrospect (http://www.dantz.com/en/products/mac_desktop/index.dtml), which allows you to record your backups on all sorts of media (including CD-R/DVD-R), but I know of several shareware apps which you could try aswell; this web link (http://www.pure-mac.com/backup.html) lists quiet a choice of them: take your pic.

Before erasing your new internal hard disk for initialization, you may want to test your backup for restores, to make sure everything works out fine.

Then, proceed with your new hard drive partitioning, following the Drive Setup instructions I've provided you in my previous post.

Hope the above is of some help to you.

Good luck.


09-26-2003, 06:05 AM
Rick says,

"You should run Disk Utility and Repair Permissions. And then you should run Disk Warrior and see if it can repair things."

The folks at Alsoft recommend always running Disk Warrior first, before any other utility, saying it can fix problems other utilities can not, but sometimes only if other utilities have not yet altered the directory. Has this changed with Mac OS X, or is there a special reason for it in this case? Perhaps Disk Warrior, or any other utility, needed "permission" to access the directory in this case?

09-26-2003, 08:30 AM
Hey BC,

With OS 9 there are no permissions, so access is not an issue. With OS 10, permissions are a factor, but DiskWarrior (booting from the CD) has root access, so it can see everything to "get around" potential permissions problems.

As for which order to run utilities, I usually run First Aid, then DW, then whatever else might be needed (Techtool, Disk Doctor, etc.). I am sure others have a specific order and reason...

All I can add is that from my experience, and other's public rantings and disasters, is always run DiskWarrior before Norton! I have watched Norton and Techtool kill drives (rare, but it does happen), some of which DW recovered, but not always. As for the Alsoft warning about "other utilities", I always thought they were refering mainly to their commercial competitors, not Apple's utilities. Maybe not?

Anybody ever seen First Aid or Disk Utility snarf up a drive - actully make a problem worse? Are they dangerous enough to include them in Alsoft rule?


Charlie Don't Surf!

[This message was edited by unclemac on Fri September 26, 2003 PT at 14:00.]

09-26-2003, 06:44 PM
Howdy, UncleMac and Butch, too;

Alsoft says that DiskWarrior works uniquely by analyzing the existing directory, so that any software that has altered that directory makes it less likely that DiskWarrior will be successful. Certainly some utilities are more likey to trash your drive than others. Marketing aside, it makes sense to run DiskWarrior before any other utility, even a comparatively safe one such as Disk First Aid, so as not to lower your chances of successful recovery.

09-27-2003, 06:15 AM
however, Apple has always sided on the conservative side of caution, and who better to know the structure of the catalog and btree and VTOC. Norton never seemed to get hfs+ correct, and when there was Central Point Software, CPS MacTools did it Apple's way. Norton would mis-report free space.

So you will find most people, the ones I know, do use Apple's tools first, before even DW. DW 2.1 was very safe, but I can't say the same feeling exists for DW3 - yet.

Check out the 1999 MacFixit Survey (http://www.macfixitforums.com/php/postlist.php?Cat=&Board=Forum4) of what users like to use and why, on their discussion forums (read-only).

Also, Disk Warrior 3: you pretty much need to burn your own bootable CD. The OS they use is old, 10.2.2 I think, and a lot of systems, and even controllers and such (SoftRAID 3 comes to mind but there are others) require 10.2.5.

I'm still waiting for DW 3.01 because I know they have done some work to improve it, but maybe they are waiting for a Panther-ready release at this point - and the filesystem does get changed slightly again. OS X has now seen four modifications to its filesystem. It wasn't until 10.2.4 that some SCSI cards and I/O performance showed some decent numbers and improvements, allowed for SoftRAID to finally write and finish testing on an OS X compliant RAID utility.

So there are good reasons to turn to Apple first - and if it doesn't find a problem, probably leave be, and to use fsck as needed immediately after any crash etc. if you DO run into a problem that needs to repair the catalog: backup. Then, considering X.2 can restore 400% faster than OS 9 ever could, do you want to just erase and restore or not.

[This message was edited by TZ on Sat September 27, 2003 PT at 15:15.]

09-28-2003, 01:38 PM
Per usual, TZ,

You're way ahead of me, but hey, I want to learn. You say to run all your Apple stuff and fsck and then:

"...if you DO run into a problem that needs to repair the catalog: backup. Then, considering X.2 can restore 400% faster than OS 9 ever could, do you want to just erase and restore or not."

Are you suggesting that rather than run DiskWarrior, just backup the drive, erase it, and copy back everything from the backup? That would fix the bad directory, but would it recover missing files, the ones that DiskWarrior would have found?

09-28-2003, 04:16 PM
DW doesn't 'find' anything. It finds what is on the drive and creates a NEW catalog based on what it finds. Before you replace the old catalog, you have the option to see Previews of the two versions of the desktop and volume. And from those, you can copy your files off to another volume if you have any doubt or suspicion that there may be files lost. That almost always is from cross-linked files, and DW should alert you to the fact that there will be some major difference in number and size of files or something.

So yes, I am saying that sometimes it makes sense to use DW, and sometimes, to just backup and erase, then restore. But ALWAYS, try to make a backup before you get into trouble, and then, when you do, try to copy over the most recent changes and Preview in your backup program what will be backed up etc. Common sense stuff.

Also, trash any junk you have, recent cache and log files you don't need that can make it easier. Undoing what was done in reverse chronological order.

And then there is journaling. In 10.3, it is by default a journaling filesystem.