PDA

View Full Version : trouble connecting to the web



blinddog
06-26-2003, 01:06 PM
Hi

Today I have been trying to get my 8600/250 270Mb running OS9.1 to look at the web through my new router and DSL phone line, but to no avail. I spoke to the tech support at the ISP and they went through everything with me but still no joy.

When we first hooked up the router, we set the TCP/IP to Ethernet and to configure using DHCP. This allocated the IP address, Subnet mask and the router an address, no problem. This means the router and computer are "talking", I can access the router configuration page and key in my user name and password as given by the ISP, this allows the router to connect to the server, the tech support at the ISP can ping me, so the router and the server are "talking" but I still can't browse the web or check my emails.

Now what they suggested was that I ping them back and see what happens.

Question 1: How do I ping (what software if any extra do I need)?

Question 2: If they can see me and I can get addresses from them, then why can't I browse?

Request: Go easy with the jargon, I know my way around the Mac but am easily blinded by science!!

Cheers

Neal

paullt
06-26-2003, 10:17 PM
blinddog

This is a direct download link; OTTool121.sit.hqx (ftp://ftp.neon.com/pub/goodies/OTTool121.sit.hqx).

With it you can type in an IP address & ping it.

Paul

Jazzbo
06-27-2003, 11:33 AM
In the TCP/IP Control Panel, is the TCP address your Mac gets from DHCP either 192.168.somthing or 10.something? If so, then the router needs to be set up to do "NAT" -- Network Address Translation -- on behalf of your Mac for outside connectivity to fly. It could be labelled as "NAT" in the router configuration or it could be "IP Sharing".

Sounds to me like the tech support folks at the ISP are asking you just the right question when they start out with "Can you ping us?" Pick up the package Paul recommended and try to ping the IP address(es) your ISP's tech support suggested. If ping is successful, it means:

1. DHCP is correctly assigning the IP address, netmask, and router for your Mac;
2. If NAT is required, the router is doing that correctly for you;
3. The router is correctly connecting out to the ISP;
4. The ISP is correctly routing *back* to you;
5. The router is passing the traffic back to the Mac.

If the above doesn't work, the problem is in fundamental network configurations -- DHCP, the router config including NAT, flakey wire, something like that.

--
If pings work and browsing doesn't, ...

One of the next things I'd check in the TCP/IP Control Panel is that there is at least one Name Server listed, loaded into the Mac via DHCP. If not, you may need to hand-install one or two, and your ISP's tech support folks can give you the addresses for you to enter.

In the browser, if it says "Looking up host.domain..." at the bottom and stops there, it *may* be that the Name Server field is missing or invalid.

Jazzbo

blinddog
06-28-2003, 02:58 AM
Thanks Jazzbo and Paullt

I have downloaded the pinging utility, but when I ping out I get no reply.

There are a few points that have occured to me that may have a bearing on this. Firstly I'm in the UK, I don't know if that's really relevant but none the less.
Second and probably most importantly the router model is a 5861 "acquired" from BT (British Telecom) but I'm not using them as my ISP. Could this be the problem.

Also there is no configuration page to access for the router (or I can't find it). so I can't check the NAT or NoNAT status of the router or change any other settings. What I can do is type in 192.168.254.254 and get the connection status page and then type in my user name and password. This allows me to see that I am connected to the ISP and that's all.

I'm at home now (the broadband is in my studio) so can't say what message appears at the bottom of the browser window, but I'll check this when I go back.

Thanks for your help.

Neal

Jazzbo
06-28-2003, 09:13 AM
Okay, Neal, you can't ping out through the router and LAN side of the router responds to address 192.168.254.254.

DSL routers have been known to require some significant tuning on the WAN side; some vendors' boxes play great with some ISPs, others' with others. If your ISP has given the okay on the model you have, that you got it from BT won't be a critical problem at least. My memory of other folks wrestling with DSL problems is that they mostly had to do with the ability to synch up and remain in synch across the WAN connection to the ISP.

-----

Since you can't ping hosts at the ISP, the problem is at a rather primitive level of the networking facilities.

However:

1. Your ISP says they can ping your router's WAN side;
2. You can connect to your router's LAN side.

In the TCP/IP control panel:

What IP address did your Mac get assigned?

What netmask?

What got loaded into the Default Router field?

While we're there, what got loaded as the name server IP address(es)?

-----

One possibility is that you'll have an IP address assigned but no default router. I don't think it's all that likely, but it would cause the problem at hand: with no (or the wrong) default router, you can reach any host on your LAN (hosts on your LAN are "local"), but the Mac doesn't know where to send packets for any host that's not on your LAN (that's what a router is for: route packets to/from hosts not on your local wires).

If there is a default router, fire up the ping command and see if you can ping it.

If there isn't a default router and the IP address assigned to the Mac starts with 192.168.254., try loading 192.168.254.254 into the control panel as the default router. If the default router field is blank and locked in the control panel, try switching it from DHCP to "Configure manually" and re-enter the IP address that was assigned when it was DHCP, a netmask of 255.255.255.0, 182.168.254.254 as the default router, and the name-server IP address(es) you wrote down from back when it was DHCP. Then try to ping your ISP again.

If at that point you can ping your ISP, copy down all the values and we'll double check that they make sense in a non-DHCP, manual configuration of the Mac. You're done for now, but it may not survive a reboot (of the Mac or the router), for instance.

No change? Switch it back to straight DHCP in the TCP/IP control panel.

-----

The next thing I'd be suspicious of is the router not being set up for NAT. If the router assigned your Mac an IP address starting with 192.168. , then your Mac is not directly reachable from the outside world: 192.168. addresses (like 10. addresses) are "private network" IP ranges, re-usable by anyone in the world precisely because the core of the Internet won't route them. The "configure me" interface of your router has a private address: 192.168.254.254.

If it also assigned an IP address starting with 192.168. to your Mac -- and a default router address also starting with 192.168. -- then the only way traffic can be run between your Mac and the outside Internet is if the router either NATs or proxies for you.

Acting as a proxy requires more programming and CPU logic than most routers can handle, and NAT is more or less a natural fit with the other functions in a router.

When a router does Network Address Translation, it lies to the outside world about the IP address of the local host in the conversation. As far as the outside world can tell, the IP address of the host at your end is.... the router. It edits your outbound IP packet and replaces the 192.168. "From" address of your Mac with its own outside WAN IP address, then launches it upstream to the Internet. The router's WAN address is routable -- via your ISP -- so the packet goes on out with a usable return address.

When an outside host replies to the packet, the reply is addressed to the WAN address of the router. Since your router knows that this particular dialogue was on behalf of your Mac, it now replaces the "To" address in the return packet (currently its own WAN address) with the private address of your Mac (192.168.x.y), and passes it to the LAN to be picked up by your Mac.

Okay so far?

If the router has its NAT facility turned off and your Mac has an IP address in one of the private networks like 192.168. , no host outside your local network can or will exchange traffic with your Mac. Turn NAT on in the router and, all other parts already working, you'll be on the air.

We may need to find configuration documentation on your router to know what to check and how to change it. You might try this: fire up a web browser and enter the router's IP address 192.168.254.254 as the URL. A lot of routers support configuration via web browser connections on their LAN side.

(Is that what you meant by: What I can do is type in 192.168.254.254 and get the connection status page and then type in my user name and password. This allows me to see that I am connected to the ISP and that's all.?)

Maybe I'm just not awake yet, but I hopped into my Linksys router's browser-based configuration screens and couldn't see where to enable/disable NAT. That figures.

The NAT bit is something the ISP might be able to help you with, too. If your Mac's IP address from DHCP starts with 192.168. , ask your ISPs tech support if they know whether your router has NAT enabled and/or if they can talk you through verifying that it's on.

-----

Maybe the Quick Start Guide (http://kb.efficient.com/display/1n/kb/article.asp?aid=45246&s=) might help.

You might also try a Google search for keywords: DSL 5861 configuration

-----

Guess that's enough guessing for now,
Jazzbo

blinddog
06-29-2003, 03:54 AM
Thanks Jazzbo

I think you've hit he nail on the head! I think the problem is in the NAT or NoNAT as the case may be.

The router address and the IP address both start 192.168.126.x so it seems have been allocated private addresses. No problem if I could just get to turn on the NAT (just checking it would be nice).

I'm not at the studio at the moment but will look into this more tomorrow.

thanks for all the info. I really appreciate it.

Neal