View Full Version : Rev1 B/W Won't take OS...

05-24-2003, 08:00 AM
System is a G3 400 Rev1 B/W 128MB RAM with CDROM. Bought it on E-bay with no HDD.

I installed the 20GB HDD from my Beige, partitioned 5GB for Jag, 3GB for 9 and 10.8GB for Storage (for some reason, there's only 18GB available total).

Here's the problem, 10.2 was working on the Beige, but unstable. Installed drive in the B/W and immediate lockup, wouldn't boot at all. Formatted the Jaguar section and tried to install Jag fresh, no good. Tried again, and corrupted the partition (lost the sibling reference or something). Fine, reinstalled the drive in the beige to migrate all the data to my G4 before complete reformat, and it booted happily into Jaguar... Still had the invalid sibling reference so I moved all the data and formatted it clean, still no dice with Jag.

I decided to try the upgrade route like I did on my Beige and installed base X.0 and after four reboots during install, it finally worked. Upgraded to X.0.4 no problem. Tried to install the X.1 update and the installer unexpectedly crashes at the same point, every time.

Decided to try installing 9 on it so it would at least function, booted off the 9.1 CD, everything worked fine, installed 9.1 and the installer locks up with less than a minute remaining, every time.

Thought maybe it was the drive so I took the spare 4GB drive that I was going to put in the beige and installed it in the B/W. This drive has 9.2.2 on it and works fine, tested just before pulling it out of the beige. No boot, can't find the system folder. Booted off the 9.1 CD, ran the OS9.2.2 installer with a clean install and still, no system folder. In the startup disk window, it shows the drive as having 9.2.2, but it can't find the system folder.

I've reset the Open Firmware, Zapped the PRAM, installed up to 740 MB RAM, removed everything but the base 128 RAM, tried two HDDs, what else is there? What am I missing?


05-24-2003, 09:51 AM
Check the G3-Zone on www.xlr8yourmac.com (http://www.xlr8yourmac.com) for sure.

Run Dimm First Aid. Very likely your RAM is one culprit. 8 ns PC100 RAM. More is better, if you do shop for RAM, get PC133 (its better quality and cheaper) and pick up a couple 256MB chips.

Partition the drive in Disk Utility or Drive Setup 2.07. It needs to be initialized at the least by now.

Run Disk Warrior before installing any files.

Run Drive Setup again, only this time just run the Test Function.

Get a 2nd drive. IBM 180GXP or WD. Consider a PCI IDE card for 2nd drive support, and slightly better performance.

Start with a full 10.2 installer and skip and old beta versions. Jaguar will run with 128 better than 10.0 or 10.1. In my opinion, 10.0 was the public beta.

You can likely move a drive from the B&W to beige (I've done it) but not as easy the other way around. The OS X installer makes some changes. Have you updated the B&W for 9.0 firmware? You said though that it had no drive... maybe its DOA or damaged? Use it for parts to upgrade your Beige?

You've done a OpenFirmware reset and reset-nvram etc on the B&W? I don't know how to tell what firmware was installed. If it will install (not just copy) OS 9.2.1 or 9.1 even, start from there.

Jaguar needs 5-6GB for install, better to give it at least 8GB so it has room to grow and to move files around. OS 9 can get along with 1.5GB.

Sorry there isn't an easy answer solution... at least that I see.

- G.

05-25-2003, 02:23 AM
Dear Joe,

Unfortunately the Rev. 1 B/W G3 machines were bugged since their first appearance on the market by the inability of the on-board IDE bus to read safely the data from an IDE hard drive installed there, other than the OEM one fitted by Apple.
This because such controller has an old revision of the DMA mode, while most modern hard disk drives wear a newer version. Such problem returns to the end user data corruption issues from the drive, especially on read activities.

If you read through this thread (http://www.macgurus.com/6/ubb.x?a=tpc&s=40160367&f=55360809&m=140600901), you may find some useful tips and suggestions about curing the B/W Rev. 1 IDE conroller issue.

Let us know if any of the above is of some help.


Take it to the Max, Mac!

05-25-2003, 11:37 AM
You say that the B/W arived without a hard drive. Did it include the IDE cable? If not, be sure to use an 80 conductor type cable. You will get data errors using a 40 conductor cable. It shouldn't be neccessary to partition your drive in the B/W unless you're just more comfortable that way.

I aquired my B/W Rev 1 basically the same way. I installed a 60GB drive and have had no problems whatsoever with it in one partition.

BTW: Your 18GB results is typical. Drive manufacturers don't use the same numbering system that computers do. A GB in the drive industry is 1 Billion Bytes. In the computer industry a GB is 1024MB, which is 1024*1024KB and 1024*1024*1024 Byes). Therefore your 20GB drive has 20,000,000,000 bytes which calculates to 20B/1024/1024/1024=18.62645GB.


I Refuse To Have A Battle Of Wits With An Unarmed Person!

[This message was edited by LasVegas on Sun May 25, 2003 PT at 20:10.]

05-26-2003, 12:47 AM
Hi Tony,

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> I aquired my B/W Rev 1 basically the same way. I installed a 60GB drive and have had no problems whatsoever with it in one partition.

Really?! That's fantastic! It's the first time I hear of a Rev. 1 owner fitting a new, modern hard drive on the on-board IDE bus without experiencing some sort of issue. So, you are using a 40-pin 80-conductor interface cable, uh?
Have you filed a report on the XLR8YOURMAC site?
It would be interesting to see if your solution suits other users and could be replicated.

Have you any data about that?

Let me know.

Thanks for your very interesting contribution!


05-26-2003, 08:31 AM
Verify your RAM is 8 ns and hopefully all from one source.

You say you now have 740MB (768MB maybe?)

Also, that 10.2 wasn't stable on the beige. It should be, but again, RAM. Are you trying to use the same RAM in both systems? You can use B&W PC100 in Beige but usually not the reverse.

Were you running Disk Utility (from CD) or fsck from startup?

Once you get all the problems and upgrades taken care of, the B&W runs 10.2.6 - and I wish Apple had 10.2.6 install CDs so users could do it in one step, no downloads or updates necessary.

- G.

05-26-2003, 09:49 AM
The RAM is the original factory 128 that came with the machine. I also have a 256 that came out of my G4 when I upgraded to 512 and another 256 from a PC upgrade. All works fine in other machines. (So I have a total of 640, sorry for the typo) I put all three in the machine before trying to install the HDD and it didn't work so I took it all out except for the original 128.

For the IDE cable, I took the one that was in the beige so I don't know.

The Beige was unstable because I tried to install a G3 450 processor in it and ended up with a copper core one, it doesn't like to remain stable.

Yes, running disk utility from CD, I'm not very UNIX savvy...

I don't have DIMM First Aid or Disk Warrior so I can't run either of those programs.

It won't install 9.1, the installer hangs up before the end of the installation.

I tried to update the firmware from the 9.1 CD and it said that my firmware was up to date.

The computer was a corporate machine and the company removed the drive for security reasons.

Thanks for the info on the partition, I'll increase the size to 8 GB.

I think my best bet is going to be to put an IDE controller card in it, does anyone have a used one they want to sell or know where I can get a good one cheap?

Thanks for the replies,

05-26-2003, 10:13 AM
In the memory FAQ (Memory Forum) is a link to DIMM First Aid - or search MacUpdate.com or VT. It helps! Not all PC100 or PC133 is going to necessarily work in B&W. That's why I said start there, it is the most likely. DFA is freeware.

Disk Warrior is a 'one of a kind" essential utility. Like a backup, it isn't a matter of "IF" but when you might need it. My advice, to run Disk Warrior immediately after initializing a drive, and after installing, along with regular maintenance.

Mixing RAM of different spec in B&W doesn't lead to a stable system. Even the Apple original RAM can be a problem under OS 9, and kernel panics in OS X (slash thru circle, foreign language about having to restart, or "kern_excpt" in Console log.

No need to be unix savvy but usng "fsck" on booting after a crash etc or doing a "Safe Boot" is good to know. There's a link in the troubleshooting FAQ linking to Apple KB article that walks you through.

- G.

05-26-2003, 07:45 PM
My mistake. I'd forgotton how the Rev number was determined on the B/W. It's based on the ROM Revision number where:

Rev 1: $770.40F2
Rev 2: $770.45F1
Rev 3: $770.45F2

So my guess on my ROM Revision number being $770.45F6 would be that I actually have a Rev 5 B/W.


I Refuse To Have A Battle Of Wits With An Unarmed Person!