View Full Version : Startup Smiley Freeze

04-18-2001, 11:00 AM
Hey there,

The problem I'm having is very similar to Chrisyip's in another thread entitled "Startup Conundrum." I'm running OS9.1 on a 7300/180 w/XLR8 G3 366Mhz, USB and Firewire PCIs, 168MB RAM. Connected media: One SCSI CDRW, SCSI EXT HD, SCSI ZIP, SCSI Scanner, 2 USB Printers, 1 Firewire HD.

I intalled 9.1 about 2 weeks ago and have had no problems until now. Computer never woke up from a sleep session yesterday. I restarted and it stalls on the Happy Mac after the disk crunches a while like its going to start up.

I heard a mention of updating drivers, but not sure how to do that. The startup disk is a 8.5Gig Quantum Fireball SE 5400RPM, and I have gotten messages in the past about it not having apple drivers or something, but I didn't no how to update.

Could insufficint RAM be the problem? I was just about to install another 64MB. If you're reading this Chrisyip, did you figure out what the problem was with your system?

thanks for any help,


04-18-2001, 02:45 PM
Oh boy... that sounds so familiar - you're not going to like what I had to do to get it back up and working.

I basically did a clean install of OS 9.0 -> 9.0.4 in order to get it to work again... Basically mine failed when I was doing a network copy of a file and it crashed so somehow the machine lost where its startup disk was but it didn't fail enough to give you the "?" icon... You could try Louie's suggestions of the OS 9.1 Startup control panel using version 9.2.1 (or whatever the latest is). but that didn't seem to work for me. I also do numerous PRAM / NVRAM restarts and nothing.

Even used SystemPicker to pick the active system folder and the machine still did wonky things for a while in terms of not rebooting. Somehow it's getting confused re: startup - it has to be some sort of start-up extension conflict or SCSI bus scanning that's stalling it so perhaps removing all your external SCSI devices might in fact get it back running.. Go back to the 1 drive / 1 CD / 1 floppy config.

Final summary:
Clean install of OS 9.0.4
System Picker to choose active System Folder

That was the only solution for me.. YMMV


04-18-2001, 02:53 PM

I'd say your first priorty is the disk driver warning. Do you know what software was used to format the disk? When you installed 9.1, did you allow or tell it to update the driver? Use Drive Setup 2.0.3 and tell it to "Update Driver" and tell us if will do it.

Do you have enough storage to backup your main drive for a reinitialization?

04-18-2001, 03:00 PM
Right - I had SoftRAID 2.2.2. running my 7300 with a boot Raid 0 off a Miles2...
So if you were using Apple Drivers = that's a different animal than my problem

Which is sort of solved now...


04-18-2001, 03:26 PM
Hey all, I supect the message niktu is referring to is the OS installer warning given when the drive has a non-Apple driver and you don't turn off the option to update driver at install. Thus, he likely has a third party driver which may need to be updated for OS 9.1. If he's using an old version of FWB, that is very likely the problem, don't you think?


04-18-2001, 03:44 PM
Yikes, alot of what you guys are saying is going over my head. Louie, I have done the update driver thing from Drive Setup and it wouldn't do it.

Macmikester, thats exactly what error message I'm talking about, although I thought I said yes to any updating that needed to be done and it wouldn't happen for some reason. How do I update my 3-party driver?

Thanks for the help and education y'all.


04-18-2001, 05:32 PM
Ummm - based on VERY limited experience, the only to go from a third party to Apple is to back up everything to another volume (physical drive) and reinitialize w/ Drive Setup (that's the yikes part of it).

You can Apple -> third party driver w/o reinitializing (at least in the case of SoftRAID) - it basically takes over the Apple one....

I did this for my SoftRAID systems.... I have an old external drive that was formatted by APS and Apple's Drive Setup can't initialize it w/o wiping the drive.


04-18-2001, 06:50 PM
Okay n,

What driver software are you using, and what version?

04-18-2001, 07:52 PM
Well I finally got the driver to update from Drive Setup 2.0.3 and everything seems to be working okay again [crossing my fingers]. Didn't even have to re-initialize.

BTW, what is the difference between "standard" and "extended" formatting?

Thanks for all the help, I hope this works.


04-18-2001, 10:19 PM
Congrats.. good work

Glad to hear that you're back up and running.

As for the difference between HFS and HFS+ - it has something to do with the size of the file blocks that are written. HFS+, I believe, uses smaller ones so it's more efficient at utilizing disk space c.f. HFS


04-19-2001, 12:13 AM
Jeez! I think Drive Setup 2.0.3 just took over a third party driver!

Let us hear if all stays well.

04-19-2001, 01:01 AM
HFS (Heirarchical File System) is Apple's system for formatting the logical space on a disk (i.e. setting up a way to address the data on a disk). The smallest unit of space is called an allocation block and it consists of x number of kilobytes which cannot be divided up into any smaller segments.

HFS (standard) is the old system, which used a 16-bit 'word' to represent the unique address of each allocation block. The absolute maximum number of allocation blocks was limited to 2^16 = 65,536 (16 bits, each of which can be one or zero gives 2^16 possible unique numbers). This worked fine when a 20 MB hard drive was huge since (20 x 2^10 KB)/2^16 = .3125 KB (320 Bytes) per allocation block. A typical page of saved text might be around 2 KB so it would use seven allocation blocks (6.4 really, but an allocation block can't be further divided so there would be 192 Bytes wasted in the seventh block). On the other hand, on a modern 2 GB hard drive, there would be (2 x 2^20 KB)/2^16 = 32 KB per allocation block. The 2 KB text file could be written into only one allocation block but there would be 30 KB of wasted space (enough for 15 more pages)!

So, along came HFS+ (HFS extended), which uses a 24-bit 'word' to represent the unique address of each allocation block. The absolute maximum number of allocation blocks is now 2^24 = 16,777,216 and the MacOS routinely uses 4 KB allocation blocks. You can format up to a 64 TB (Terabyte) disk into 4 KB allocation blocks with HFS+. On a 9 GB hard drive, you would have 2,359,296 allocation blocks, each 4 KB in size, under HFS+. Formatted with HFS, this same drive will have 65,536 allocation blocks, but each would be 144 KB in size! Lotto lotto wasted space!


04-19-2001, 01:21 AM
Excellent disertation, Doctor!

04-19-2001, 01:26 AM
Sir! Thank you, Sir! http://macgurus.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

04-19-2001, 11:03 AM
(raises hand) So I guess I should reformat my drives in extended format? I already did one 4 gig external in extended, but my startup disk(8.5gig) and external firewire(40gig) I believe were formatted in standard. Would it be worth the time to do it?


04-19-2001, 02:50 PM
It's well worth it for both the 8.5 GB disk and the 40 GB; especially the 40 GB. Be sure that whatever you use to format the FireWire drive can do HFS+.

04-19-2001, 07:02 PM
Hey Louie, will Drive Setup 2.0.3 do the trick?

04-19-2001, 08:56 PM
I gotta a chuckle out of the explaination offered by "Eravau" on the MacAddict forum re HFS and HFS+...


Imagine your mommy bakes a pan of your favorite brownies for you and your friends. One of your
mommy's ground rules is that nobody can share their piece of the brownies with anybody else
because you'll get their germs and that wouldn't be good. You could get sick. Your mommy then cuts
the pan of brownies into 6 large pieces. You and 5 of your friends each get one of these huge pieces
of browie. A couple of you are hungry enough to eat the whole piece, but most of you can't. So there's
a lot of wasted brownie that's uneaten and just thrown away...because you can't share. And if any
more of your friends come along later, there's none left for them...even though a lot was thrown out.

A few days later you go over to your friend Tommy's house. Tommy's mom is smarter. She has the
same ground rule, that you can't eat any part of the other kids' pieces of brownie. Knowing that some
of the kids can eat a lot of brownie, but most of them can only eat a little, she cuts the pan of
brownie into 20 reasonably sized pieces. She tells you that you can have as many pieces as you can
eat...just don't take another piece 'til you're done with the one you have. There is still a little thrown
away, but not much since nobody had to take much more than they could eat. Not only that, but there
was enough for several more friends to have some brownies too.


What does this have to do with HFS vs. HFS+?

Well, your mommy is the HFS format. It cuts the hard drive into fewer large chunks. Each file has to
take at least one chunk which it can't share with any other files (or it would get contaminated with the
other file's data/germs). Most files aren't large enough to use this huge chunk of hard drive space, so
a lot is wasted.

Tommy's mommy is the HFS+ format. HFS+ divides the hard drive up into much smaller pieces. Each
file can have as many pieces as it needs, but they aren't forced to take a huge chunk if they don't
need to. So there's still some space left over when another small file needs some hard drive space.


I hope this explanation was good enough. If not, let me know where I lost you and I'll try to explain
it better.

[This message has been edited by spaz2 (edited 19 April 2001).]

04-20-2001, 01:29 AM
You know how to speak my language spaz. TIme to go to Tommy's mommy......

04-20-2001, 01:44 AM
very nice.

talk about a great FAQ question....


04-20-2001, 06:42 PM
Drive Setup 2.0.3 will certainly do it. You will need to back up and reinitialize to go to HFS+. (Alsoft used to have program that claimed to do it without initializing; haven't heard about it for a while)