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chrismenke
03-25-2001, 03:56 AM
So I've got the machine (9600/233, ZForce, 266mhz ZIF, 352MB RAM) stablized...thus far, but I've got some serious issues about the BUS speed. It won't boot at above 46.7.

When I first migrated the guts out of the 9500, it booted and ran fine at 303/152, on a PowerLogix ZForce, with a 266 G3. That ended today. It hung once, and from there on out, would hang one or two minutes after successfully loading the desktop.

I have had to back the processor down to 270/187, with the bus a 46.7. As this is supposed to be a 50mhz bus, I'm supercalifragadisappointed, that I can't get 50, let alone 52.5 or 55. I have tried all my bootable partitions, 9.1, 9.0.4, 9, 8.6, 8.5, and 8.1. No luck.

L2/L3 cache is disabled, as unlike the 9500, it locks the machine. My MacBench scores are down over two hundred points for processor & FPU after clocking down. Arrgghh...I'm far too in love with this case to migrate back, but 200 point is a lot, especially on a 850 pt system. (NEW INFO, I'm only down 75 points on 3/27), which would be more in line with the mhz drop).

As always the problem has generated questions:
Should I de-interleave my RAM?
Has anyone got this configuration, and have DIP 1-8 on the ZForce settings for me to try?
Any thoughts on why a machine which was stable for 5+ hours of heavy use last night, bailed this morning?

And some asides:
A new issue with the 9600 and not the 9500 is that it hangs on boot (at the Happy Mac) with my 50-pin media tower hooked up to the MoBo external bus, only if it is powered on. If I power the media tower after passing the Happy Mac stage, all is fine.
The active terminator is aglow, and the termination and cabling all succeed with PC, 7200, and 9500.

Also, Gauge Pro thinks it is a Mach 5. Can anyone with a non Mach 5 9600 corrobarate that this is a Gauge Pro bug before I start screwing with the Speculative Address Switch?

Cheers,
Chris

[This message has been edited by chrismenke (edited 27 March 2001).]

[This message has been edited by chrismenke (edited 27 March 2001).]

crazyeights
03-27-2001, 12:55 PM
Hi chris, have you verified that all your memory is the same speed? (No 60ns and 70ns mixed in the machine) Theoretically they can coexist, in practice they can bitch and moan.

When I installed matched good RAM in my mac, about 90-95% of the oddball problems just went away.

You might try playing with the memory, weeding out any RAM sticks that may be of marginal quality. Admittedly, with a 266Mhz CPU, I wouldn't think it should push the RAM over the edge.

Have you ever had the occasion to use the xlr8 diagnostic software?

You could nail your CPU to stock clock speed, then run memory test and the fractal program for a good 10-12 hours (disable screen savers, use monitor sleep only), and see if it returns a memory error.

Shot in the dark, but what the heck. I've sure seen "it worked in the other machine" bite the dust a bunch of times on these forums.

There's the 2 out of my dinky little knowledge base.

c8

chrismenke
03-27-2001, 01:58 PM
C8,

As to the RAM, the two 128s are matched, verified 60ns.
The two 32s are matched, speed unverified.
The two 16s are matched, speed unverified.

These three sets are interleaved. Without specific serial number ns ratings, how does one ascertain RAM speed? Also, I've heard tale that de-interleaving helps in higher speed configs, but haven't tried.

I've not run PowerFrax, as I don't have it. So, where does one obtain this PowerFrax thingy I've read so much about? Sounds interesting. As to XLR8 diagnostics, I didn't know of any, I'll poke around and see if I can find anything.

My new and interesting discovery...my 233 processor (which I pulled when I got the 9600) won't boot the 9500/132 (no chime/video [after CUDA & NVRAM & MoBo Battery]). I'd like to drop in the 233, because as I'm sure you're all aware, 233mhz is fater than 132mhz!

The 233 daughtercard also has a 250/300/350/400mhz indication on the bottom, and is labelled Apple High Performance Processor Card Model 100, 820-0823-07 on the top. Between this and Gauge Pro's findings, the stock internal Zip and IX Micro 8mb model, and the fact that I ran Spec Processing (in a protected data environment) successfully for 2 days, could this be an early Kansas model Mach 5 which shipped with a special 233 daughtercard?

Lemme know your thoughts!

Cheers,
Chris



[This message has been edited by chrismenke (edited 27 March 2001).]

Dogstarman
03-27-2001, 07:08 PM
As far as the XLR8 diagnostics? PowerFrax is one of them. Go to the FTP site here and get it all in the XLR8 folder. If you need help, just ask.

I would bet that the processor car is a Mach 5 model. When was the last time you had it running at 233? Type in the part number of the card and the mobo and I will tell you what you got. I would seriously bet a little cash that you have a Mach V model. I have dealt with many, and NONE had the 250-400 marks. The 604e wasn't scaled that high. There weren't even plans to do so. The 604ev could go that high due to the engineering progress.

So yep. I am right alongside Dave on most of this. But the Apple part numbers should set things straight once and for all.

Louie
03-27-2001, 07:59 PM
Go here ftp://ftp.macgurus.com//ftp/xlr8_stuff/ , download XLR8 PowerPack 1.1.0. It contains PowerControl and PowerFrax.

chrismenke
03-27-2001, 08:53 PM
DSM,

I ran it briefly at 233 to verify that the machine functioned (eBay purchase), and then in my newfound hardware glee, tore it to pieces.

The daughtercard bears only the 820-0823-07 number I mentioned below, and the MoBo (if I can see it easily, I'm crawling under the desk to pop off the excellent side panel) 820-0929-023. While I was pretending my head was a PCI card, I noticed something interesting, a clincher! The MoBo is labelled Kan 9600.

So how rare is my mutt? I'm going to have to put the daughtercad back in to find out more! Any others with 233 Mach V stories?

This has turned out to be a Killer deal! Super coveted Apple Azul LCD Studio Display, 9600/233/Mach 5 Mutt (128/4GB), Apple Extended Kybd. II (my fave ever), and all the appropo cables for $650. I'm stoked!

The spec addressing button shall soon be enabled!

Cheers,
Chris

BBIAB, Processor swap.

chrismenke
03-27-2001, 09:25 PM
My new Beaster (not to be confused with Beast), appears to be a 9600/400 604ev. ApSysProfiler, GaugePro, and Mac Bench all agree ub?r mutt is a 400mhz 604ev (well, 399.50), running a 49.93mhz bus, with a 64K 400mhz L1, and a 1MB 100mhz inline L2.

As a matter of fact, the ZForce is going to be napping in anti-static pajamas on the desk for a while.

So, the machine is currently a 9600/233 Kansas Mach V 400mhz. It never existed, and if it never existed, and I'm typing on it right now, I must not exist. Darn tootin....

Some numbers from the ub?r mutt:
MacBench 5 CPU:
726, extensions on
739, extensions off
MacBench 5 FPU:
1343, extensions on
1361, extensions off
Gauge Pro Memory:
30.8, extensions on
40.2, extensions off

Is this an oddball, a mutt, a prize, a space oddity, or all of the above?

Lemme know,
Chris


Oh yeah, Gestalt is 67.


[This message has been edited by chrismenke (edited 27 March 2001).]

Dogstarman
03-27-2001, 09:30 PM
That almost worries me. Apple didn't make a 233 604ev card. The part number is the same as the card I had (sold it, but jotted the P/N) in my Mach V running at 350 Mhz. Weird. 233 Mhz is 2/3 of 350. Exactly. I wonder how tough it would be to plug in your original card and give some info about bus speed, etc. Check out this site and tell me what pads are soldered together:
http://www.xlr8yourmac.com/tips/mach5info.html

The chip itself should be marked, too. Any chance you can tell what the markings are? I know it is a lot of work, but I am so darn curious if all these things are tied together. If it is a 350 machine running at 233, then something is going VERY wrong. Maybe it is a fluke. Who knows. Maybe you really do have a very-limited 233 Mach V with a few upgrade problems.

Dogstarman
03-27-2001, 09:36 PM
Well, are you using Apple Sys Proflier to check Gestalt? It shows mine as ID 67, too. Even thought I KNOW it is a Mach 5 (ID 105).

chrismenke
03-27-2001, 09:39 PM
DSM,

The numbers from the post below are the 604ev, which claims to be a 400mhz, not the G3. The MoBo has Kansas indication, and the case is the only item which I still believe has any relation to a Tsunami 9600.

Yup, Apple sys profiler agrees that Gestalt is 67.

I'm happily befuddled...


Stuck my head in the case again (sure love that side panel), and the resistors are set up for 400mhz like on Breeden's site. Either they were STOCK, or the mod was done by a solderer with surgeon's hands. Been a 604ev/400 for about an hour now, running SoundJam, Eudora Pro, Napster, Netscape 4.6.1, 5 Hotline Clients, Fetch, IPNetRouter FBA, IE, BBedit 6, Flash, Dreamweaver, and 9.1. No hiccups...

I dunno, but I like it!

[This message has been edited by chrismenke (edited 27 March 2001).]

Louie
03-27-2001, 09:46 PM
My PTP shows 67 also. Right below it says Power Macintosh 9500. All 9500's and 9600's thru 233 have a Gestalt Number of 67. The Mach 5's have a Gestalt Number of 105 according to Apple Specs.

[This message has been edited by Louie (edited 27 March 2001).]

Dogstarman
03-27-2001, 09:53 PM
I don't know what else to say except congrats. It must be a modded card. But it works and it is something (better?) different than you thought. Still curious what the actual 604 chip is marked as.....Downright weird.

chrismenke
03-27-2001, 10:00 PM
DSM,

I bought it based on the following description:

---------
Title:
Power Macintosh 9600/233 w/LCD Monitor
Description
Works great. Includes "Blue" LCD monitor. Cables, but nothing else. Buyers please note...

---------

I was expecting a non Mach V with a Bondi LCD, I appear to have gotten a Mach V MoBo, a 400mhz ass kicking 604ev, and an Azul.

I'm glowing almost as brightly as my display!

I would still like to know if anyone has heard of this combo, I'm close enough to Cupertino, that this could have been an internal machine.

DSM, I'll contemplate tearing off the heatsink to get you numbers, but make no promises.

Cheers,
Chris

Dogstarman
03-27-2001, 10:06 PM
The link I posted has detailed instructions on how to overclock a Mach V processor board. Is there any way you could stick your head inside and see the area of the card that is mentioned? If not, it's OK. But that would be an easy way to make sure your HW is behaving. It may have been an internal machine. No way to really tell. Or it could just be a modded machine that the seller was unaware of.

Here's one more question (sorry, but you got me curious). What is the ROM version in the bottom area of App Sys Prof?

chrismenke
03-27-2001, 10:14 PM
DSM,

I stuck my head in, and the resistors indicate it SHOULD be at 400, and look OEM/new.

Here's what Apple System Profiler says (with my IP info censored):

Software overview
Mac OS overview
Finder: 9.1
System: 9.1 US
Active enabler: None
QuickTime: 4.1.2
CarbonLib: 1.1.1
File sharing: is on
Multiple Users: 1.3.1
The startup device has been chosen; however, Apple System Profiler
can't determine which SCSI Bus device it is.
Memory overview
Disk cache: 8160K
Virtual memory: is off
Built-in memory: 352 MB
Location Size Memory type
A4 16 MB DIMM
B4 16 MB DIMM
A5 32 MB DIMM
B5 32 MB DIMM
A6 128 MB DIMM
B6 128 MB DIMM
External L2 cache: 1 MB
Hardware overview
Machine ID: 67
Model name: Power Macintosh 9600 series
Keyboard type: Apple Extended Keyboard
Processor info: PowerPC 604ev
Machine speed: 400 MHz
Nanokernel version: 2.21
Nanokernel pool extends: 0
Nanokernel scheduled CPUs:1
Network overview
Ethernet built-in Link: n/a Speed: n/a Duplex: n/a
Ethernet PCI Slot [C1] Link: n/a Speed: n/a Duplex: n/a
Open Transport
Installed: Yes
Active: Yes
Version: 2.7.4
AppleTalk
Installed: Yes
Active: Yes
Version: 60
File sharing: is on
Default AppleTalk zone: Not available
Active network port(s): Ethernet built-in
Ethernet PCI Slot [C1]
This network: 65336
This node: 194
Router: <not available>
Hardware Address: 00.05.02.66.91.79
00.C0.F0.2D.C2.4A
TCP/IP
Installed: Yes
Active: Yes
Version: 2.7.4
Personal Web Sharing: is off
USB Printer Sharing: Not installed
Netmask: *********
IP address: ************
Default gateway address: **********
Domain:
Name server address: ************
Printer overview
Note: No printer has been chosen.
Production information
ROM revision: $77D.34F5
Serial number: Not applicable
Software bundle: Not applicable
Sales order number: Not applicable

Cheers,
Chris


[This message has been edited by chrismenke (edited 27 March 2001).]

Dogstarman
03-27-2001, 10:42 PM
Yep, all the vitals check out same as mine. The board PN is the same, but where you have "023" I have "A". Weird. I just have one thing to say....if you are even looking to part with that 604ev card, lemme know. I don't really think it is anything other than a modded (Apple or otherwise) standard issue card....but I regret selling mine and haven't gotten around to scouring for one for sale.

Any idea how the performance compares to your G3?

Thanks so much for humoring my 1,000 questions!!! http://macgurus.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

chrismenke
03-27-2001, 10:51 PM
DSM,

Some MacBench 5 numbers to digest:
400mhz 604ev in 9600:
CPU:
726, extensions on
739, extensions off
FPU:
1343, extensions on
1361, extensions off
Gauge Pro Memory:
30.8, extensions on
40.2, extensions off

Powerlogix ZForce with 266mhz ZIF clocked to 280 in 9600:
CPU:
821
FPU:
998

Powerlogix ZForce with 266mhz ZIF clocked to 303 in 9500:
CPU:
869
FPU:
999

Don't think I'll be selling this card, sorry dogstarman. I think the ZForce is going back in the 9500 (it seemed happier there), Beaster will remain the ub?r mutt, and I'll continue thinking about a new G4 with a nice Cinema Display to be their friends.

Don't worry about asking too many questions, I get to learn from answering them!

Cheers,
Chris

Dogstarman
03-27-2001, 11:06 PM
Seems you got a rockin' machine! http://www.macgurus.com/ubb/dance.gif That's one thing I always loved about the 604ev's....they kick some serious ass in FPU tests compared to the G3's of similar speeds.

chrismenke
03-31-2001, 10:19 PM
Dogstarman,

I got bored, and put the G3 back in ub?r mutt, and when I pulled the 604ev/400, I yanked of the heatsink, and got some data from the proc. for you.

top:
PPC604RRX300PB
right:
AIM015
bottom:
Eng Sample

I thought Eng(ineering?) Sample was an interesting annotation, and also ...300PB, could this be a 300 clocked up to 400?

Who knows...
Chris

Dogstarman
03-31-2001, 11:06 PM
I would send an email to Mike Breeden at XLR8YourMac.com and see what he can turn up for you. My Mach V chip had PPC760 as a chip ID.....not 604. Seems a little weird. The info on Mike's site seems to concur with mine, but yours is totally different. I have seen the "Eng Sample" tag before, and it is indeed an Engineering Sample denotation. You might have something on your hands. Not that it is going to be particularly valuable...just nice and unique. I am sure Mike will ask for lots of info and/or pics. If you happen to get any, shoot them my way. My best guess is that it is a 300 OC'd. No other explanation.