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View Full Version : External IDE/FireWire Drive Kit Problems - ADVICE NEEDED!!



MarkS
03-07-2001, 11:50 AM
Hi,

Had been using Quantum Fireball 20 GB in a Pyro FireWire Drive Kit with my PM8500/OrangeLink FireWire/USB card. Drive worked fine for a few months.

Periodically, got error messages from DiskWarrior that I should rebuild directory immediately, which I always did. Also, use TT Pro 3.02 as well.

A while ago when trying to do tape backups on my various drives using Retrospect (latest version) the backup would freeze up about halfway into Quantum/FW Drive Kit backup. Called Retrospect several times but never got an answer that worked.

Last week got error message again from DiskWarrior saying to rebuild directory immediately. However, before I could do that I got another error message 'Bomb' and had to reboot Mac. From then on, at end of bootup process I'd get another 'Bomb' message if FW Drive was connected to Mac. So no way to get to utility program to rebuild directory.

Took drive out of case and brought it to local Mac repair shop. They put the drive in a new Mac and couldn't get drive to mount.

So sent drive into data recovery service and they said that drive went bad but they got all my data off of it and put it onto new 40 GB Quantum Fireball and sent it back to me last Friday.

In the meantime, I had called ADS Technologies that makes the Pyro FireWire Drive Kit. They admitted that there was a problem with the DriveKit that I had and would send me a new one at no charge.

I put the new Quantum in the new Pyro Drive Kit and drive mounted normally on Mac.

Last nite while doing a Retrospect backup of my drives, I got a DiskWarrio error message saying that directory on new Quantum drive should be rebuilt immediately. Meanwhile, Retrospect had frozen up during backup on another drive. So had to reboot Mac. I then used DiskWarrior to rebuild directory. Everything seemed fine. Shut down Mac.

This morning when I booted up Mac, I got error message saying that drive was not recognized and asked whether I wanted to initialize it!

Talked to data recovery service and they said to send drive with Drive Kit to them to look at.

Meanwhile, my question is, is this just a fluke that I've had all these problems or is something else going on here??

Should I just forget using FireWire Drive with 8500 and get another SCSI drive??

Also, I plan to finally get a new Mac G4 sometime in the next few months, so would like to be able to migrate drive over to new Mac if possible.

As I use my Mac in my own small business I can't afford to deal with this all the time.

Any suggestions???

Thanks for any help!!!

Mark

kaye
03-07-2001, 12:28 PM
Mark,

That is a nightmare, and I'm not even going to ask what that data recovery and new drive cost. Since this has happened twice, I'm wondering about the OrangeLink FireWire/USB card. Either the software installation process which seems to require a specific order of installation which I will get to, or the card itself. I know, at this point in time, magician prefers RATOC here http://www.macgurus.com/shoppingcart/showrampage.cgi?ratoc.html for the combo cards.

The software installation process, by magician from another thread:

the secret we have found to installing FireWire cards is to ensure that you install the Apple FireWire 2.5, the Apple USB 1.4.1, and the card-specific drivers BEFORE you install the card.

try different PCI slots, too.

while they can be a little finicky sometimes, we have never failed to make them work--unless they were just defective.

Hope this helps. k

MarkS
03-07-2001, 12:37 PM
Hi Kaye,

Thanks for the reply!

I have the extensions you mention installed.

Also, the drive worked fine for several months before this disaster happened last week. There were occasional DiskWarrior error messages, which DW fixed). Also, recently, Retrospect froze up midway backing up this drive, which is why I didn't have a current backup of that drive...

Yeah, data recovery is very expensive ($2200)....that's why I was wondering whether to chuck the FireWire drive approach and go back to a SCSI drive???

Maybe even bite the bullet and get a Cheetah/ATTO card which I can later use in new Mac???

Appreciate any thoughts...

Mark

kaye
03-07-2001, 12:53 PM
Mark,

I just want to be sure that you installed the software in the order magician says with the FireWire card removed. The fact that DW found errors before and after the data recovery indicates to me a problem before and after.

If that is the case, then I suggest two possibilities.
1. Get the RATOC combo card. I am not familiar with the Pyro FireWire Kit. I would wait for magician to comment about it or someone else who has actually used this device and their experience with it. So it could be this Pyro device causing the problems. What is the model number of the Pyro kit.

2. An ATTO/Cheetah would certainly do it and would, IMO, need the appropriate Gurus Granite cables. But again, let's wait for other comments about your FireWire setup.

Do you have a G3/G4 in the 8500? k

kaye
03-07-2001, 01:07 PM
Here is a link http://www.xlr8yourmac.com/firewire/Firewire_combo_cards.html of some experiences. At the bottom of the page are more links. k

MarkS
03-07-2001, 01:13 PM
>I just want to be sure that you installed the software in the order magician says with the >FireWire card removed. The fact that DW found errors before and after the data recovery >indicates to me a problem before and after.

It's been a long time since I installed FW card. I'm pretty sure that I did what OrangeLink said to do.

>If that is the case, then I suggest two possibilities.
>1. Get the RATOC combo card. I am not familiar with the Pyro FireWire Kit. I would wait for >magician to comment about it or someone else who has actually used this device and their >experience with it. So it could be this Pyro device causing the problems. What is the model >number of the Pyro kit.

It's the Pyro 1394 Drive Kit by ADS Technologies <www.adstech.com>. As I mentioned in first post, ADS admitted there was a problem with original drive kit that could occur when drive was left connected to Mac after power was turned off to drive. They said this problem could affect the firmware on the logic board. They revised logic board to correct this a month ago and sent me a new kit last week.

>2. An ATTO/Cheetah would certainly do it and would, IMO, need the appropriate Gurus >Granite cables. But again, let's wait for other comments about your FireWire setup.

OK, but just want to avoid problems if possible...

>Do you have a G3/G4 in the 8500? k

I have a XLR8 Mach Carrier G3/400 in my 8500, works great.

Thanks,

Mark

kaye
03-07-2001, 01:26 PM
I checked the Orange Micro site, go here http://www.orangemicro.com/fwusbtechspecs.html and scroll to the bottom of the page. I don't see Pyro or Quantum listed. k

MarkS
03-07-2001, 04:39 PM
Kaye,

Thanks for the OrangeMicro info.

Just tried to call tech support there to verify if there is a compatibility issue here...but there out to lunch....need to call back in a half hour.

Will let you know what I discover...

Mark

MarkS
03-07-2001, 07:09 PM
Well, called OrangeMicro. They said that their list isn't complete and they haven't gotten around to testing all the various firewire devices. So they thought compatibility is not the problem.

So it seems it's either related to the Drive Kit or the drive. My sense is its the Drive Kit.

Anyway, bit the bullet and ordered from MacGurus a Cheetah X15 plus ATTO UL3 card, etc so that I have a solution now until I get my new G4 and then migrate it over...

Do you think I need a fan to keep X15 cool?? If so, any recommendations??

Also, can you boot off the ATTO card??

Thanks again for all your help!

Mark

Louie
03-07-2001, 08:27 PM
The X15 runs quite cool for such a high performance drive. I have two in a PTP, each mounted in an Ultimate Cooler for insurance.

We need someone with 8500 experience to make a recommendation on cooling. I think the Ultimate Cooler will not fit in an 8500, so some other fan may be needed.

kaye
03-07-2001, 10:07 PM
I can't help either with 8500 location and cooling. Did you get Granite LVD cable and LVD terminator? k

MarkS
03-07-2001, 10:18 PM
Sure did!

>I can't help either with 8500 location and cooling. Did you get Granite LVD cable and LVD >terminator? k

kaye
03-07-2001, 10:37 PM
Marvelous. Now go here http://www.xlr8yourmac.com/cheetah/index.html for an installation guide. That APS 3-fan unit is no longer available. Looks to me like the Gurus UltraThin would fit, it normally mounts on the underside with screws. I prefer to put it on the top, the hot side of a drive. If you get one I can detail how to install on the top. Anyway, Ult Cooler may fit but another 8500 owner or magician is going to have to comment. Possible sleds/parts here http://www.macgurus.com/shoppingcart/obj_show_page.cgi?mgscsibezelsandsleds.html but I see there is another bottom bay magician may want you to use.

ATTO card will have to go in PCI slot 1. Did you order UL3S or UL3D? k

[This message has been edited by kaye (edited 07 March 2001).]

MarkS
03-07-2001, 11:19 PM
>Marvelous. Now go here http://www.xlr8yourmac.com/cheetah/index.html for an >installation guide.

Will check it out!

>That APS 3-fan unit is no longer available. Looks to me like the Gurus UltraThin would fit, it >normally mounts on the underside with screws. I prefer to put it on the top, the hot side of >a drive. If you get one I can detail how to install on the top.

Yeah, I called APS earlier today and the girl I spoke with didn't know what I was talking about...

>Anyway, Ult Cooler may fit but another 8500 owner or magician is going to have to >comment.

I'm ready for comments!

>Possible sleds/parts here >http://www.macgurus.com/shoppingcart/obj_show_page.cgi?mgscsibezelsandsleds.html >but I see there is another bottom bay magician may want you to use.

I was assuming I can use the sled that I have already in my 8500 that's on the drive I'm going to replace??

>ATTO card will have to go in PCI slot 1. Did you order UL3S or UL3D? k

I bought the UL3S...I'll be lucky if I can afford one more Cheetah after what I gave to data recovery service this week...

Mark

magician
03-08-2001, 03:24 PM
if I'm not mistaken, someone here in Wilmington spoke with this gentleman on the phone. I don't remember the reader's digest version of the concluding guidance he was given, but I do remember a couple of the highlights.

1. the Pyro is not something that we would use, sell, endorse or support at this time.

2. no additional cooling is REQUIRED with an X15 in an 8500. That said, additional cooling certainly can't hurt.

3. there are no cooling kits designed expressly for the 8500/9500 case design available at this time. The best option would probably be to use the K technique with an UltraThin Heat Exhauster.

4. there is no reason not to reuse drive mounting sleds in those machines. The correct part number for the 8500/9500 is the K8030. That sled also fits the TOP BAY ONLY of the 7300/7500/7600/bG3DT case. The lower bay in those machines requires the 922-1124. Both are on our parts page.

5. the ATTO UL3D or UL3S will work in the 8500, but remember that it will be somewhat slower in a vintage machine than a Miles2. It will be optimal when you migrate, later, to a New World machine. K, was there a sustained-write limit you hit in your machines with the UL3D? I forget.

hope this helps.

http://macgurus.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

kaye
03-08-2001, 04:57 PM
magician,

Yes, in a vintage Mac, sustained writes below 40MB/s, I'm thinking 38-39MB/s, no matter how I configured the X15 striped RAID with the UL3D, both on one channel or one on each channel. A single Miles2 was just a bit better at 40.x MB/s with a couple of X15s. Of course, for both cards, sustained reads were almost 2x sustained writes with dual X15s.

And with one X15 sustained writes were again 38-39MB/s for ATTO card, and 40MB/s with Miles2. k

[This message has been edited by kaye (edited 08 March 2001).]

MarkS
03-08-2001, 05:39 PM
Thanks Kaye, Magician, Louie for all your input.

I'm anxiously awaiting arrival of Cheetah and ATTO card, etc...

Mark

MarkS
03-14-2001, 10:47 AM
Hi again,

http://macgurus.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif Well, I got my Cheetah/ATTO UL3S card installed yesterday and works great!

Everything feels quite zippy in my ol' 8500 now...

still wondering if I need some sort of cooling fan??? Was told no by a MacGuru when I called but Seagate's installation sheet says one should be used.

Any suggestions??

Thanks,

Mark

MarkS
03-14-2001, 10:48 AM
PS. Forgot to mention....anyone want a Pyro 1394 Drive Kit???

Mark

kaye
03-14-2001, 01:28 PM
OK, cooling, sounds like you want peace of mind. That is frequently my case too. Here is what magician said previously:

2. no additional cooling is REQUIRED with an X15 in an 8500. That said, additional cooling certainly can't hurt.

3. there are no cooling kits designed expressly for the 8500/9500 case design available at this time. The best option would probably be to use the K technique with an UltraThin Heat Exhauster.

Go here http://www.macgurus.com/shoppingcart/obj_show_page.cgi?coolingdevices3.html

This cooler is designed to screw onto the logic board side of the HD. The hot side of a drive is actually the smooth top side. So that is where I install the UltraThin by using small strips of double-sided foam tape. You want the strips no wider than the UltraThin mounting flange or the HD flat side edges, whichever is thinner. Mount the tape on the top of the drive between the top edge screws, not over the screws, on both edges. Press UltraThin onto the tape. Note that UltraThin has a directional arrow. I don't know the 8500, but I'll guess you want airflow to go from front to back. Also make sure those power wires are firmly in those two little pinching holders so the wires don't impinge on the fan. k

MarkS
03-14-2001, 04:23 PM
Hi Kaye,

Thanks for the reply.

Probably overly worried. However, having suffered through multiple hard drive disasters in the last two years I just want to minimize chances of problems.

Mark