View Full Version : HELP GURU'S.....

12-11-2000, 06:40 AM
Please help. For a little background, see earlier thread from IdiotBoy, me.

PTP, originally a 225Mhz, previous owner upgraded to, as of now, unknown g3/310Mhz Unknown L2. I have a MAChCarrier g3/400/1Mb L2, but I don't want to put it in till I stabilize this thing. I now only have 48Mb of physical RAM in it, but again, I don't want to put more in till I find out what the hells going on with this thing.

On the internal bus: Granite teflon with 3 devices. 16x Teac CD-ROM, ID 3; 8x8x24 Yamaha CD-RW, ID 4. Both of these are unterminated. At the end of the chain, Seagate narrow Medalist 4.2 gig, ID 0, terminated. Using no SCSIVue on the end, using term on Medalist. No devices on external SCSI.

PCI: Slot 1 (closest to daughter card) Miles2 with a 9gig cheetah U160 in LVD.

Slot 6: Twin Turbo video card.

First, I need to find out what this accelerator is........

It looks like: almost full length heat sink. and has three green pots on top for switching. Big suckers. I feel pretty certain the Newer software that came on the drive is the wrong software.

Until I can figure out what card this is, I don't know what to load into the Sys.

Is that sufficient to cause all the trouble? Also, the installation is weird. The big ol green pots on the daughtercard don't clear the plastic card brace attached to the PTP's inner drive enclosure, and causes the daughter to flex over to one side a scary amount so the green pots clear.

If and when I get my xlr8 card in this thing, it won't surprise me if I have to bend out the pin contacts on the MOBO.

For some more about this, see previous thread; "HELP"...Delaware, we have a problem..

Well, my brains are toasted, so I'm goin to bed. It's REAL late. Hey, maybe we'll have a president by the time I'm concious again!!!

Any help is appreciated....


12-11-2000, 03:05 PM
"Plastic card brace attached to the PTP's inner drive inclosure" - ??

The inner drive inclosure is known as the RAID box. It has a cooling fan attached that blows directly on the CPU heatsink. It also has two STEEL legs which are forked at the bottom. The forks fit over the processor card to brace it. These steel legs must be bent slightly outboard to clear the dip switches on the XLR8
Carrier card.

It may be that the previous owner "jury rigged" things.

I could shut down, disassemble and take some pictures if necessary.

[This message has been edited by Louie (edited 11 December 2000).]

12-11-2000, 04:22 PM
Well, not that it is a certain thing, but I have seen/used a couple Railgun G3 cards that have the green pots you are talking about in the same places you are talking of. The heatsink was a full-length finned model on both. And yes, the little legs are supposed to secure the processor card in place and KEEP it from rocking back and forth. The Railgun cards I had contact with (still using one) have been awesome. At their time, they were the price/performance leaders. my 275 is currently running at 344 and has been for almost a year. I use PowerLogix's software...freeware. If you need pics, I can send you some (to verify if this is it). The settings on the card are beyond me...you would need an owner's manual. And since the card was sold through BottomLine Distribution (Out of Biz), I dunno where to tell you to look. Mine was lost in one od my moves. But the card itself could be causing problems, especially cocked to one side like that and overclocked.

12-11-2000, 04:35 PM
you do not want to run a card putting pressure on a daughtercard slot. You'll ruin the slot.

this card sounds like a RailGun or even a PowerLogix.

you should be able to pull the heat sink off it and find some markings on the card that identify it.

12-11-2000, 07:10 PM
Hi Gents.

I have no method for taking pics.....Dogstarman, if you do have pics, I'd appreciate you sending em, each one as a seperate mail. Send to prem1210@hotmail.com

Thanks for that.

Magician, I'm with you that this CPU card installation is clugy at best. That's the way it was when I got the machine. If the slot connectors are distorted, is there a remedy that can be applied? When the machine is powered down, is there ANY juice at the MOBO via a Capacitor...etc...?

Louie, thanks for the clarification on terminology. Yes, this RAID box has a plastic snap on that clearly has a channel in it for the card, and it's clearly an original manufacturer part. Unfortunately, whoever did this upgrade didn't take 5 minutes out to modify the plastic brase to accomodate the "big ol green pots", thus causing the sideways slant of the daughtercard. Pretty *****d (screwed) up.

http://www.macgurus.com/ubb/question.gif Would having the wrong cdev SW cause all this BS with misplaced directory info? As of most recent, D.Warrior only found bad directory info on the boot volume, the 9gb cheetah-2 volumes 1gig boot volume, remainder in 2nd volume as work disk. BTW, in this whole process, I did re-install the LVD driver; soft RAID 2.2.2.

Keep those ideas coming guys.

thanks for your help,


12-11-2000, 09:21 PM
uh....when the machine is powered down, some chipsets are powered by the battery....but most are not. I don't believe you have a lot of charged pots on the board, but then I've never really tested one by one with a multimeter, either.

just look at everything, and use common sense. If you need to remove plastic retainers, do it.

if you suspect your daughtercard slot is damaged, get a real bright light and a magnifying glass and inspect the leads for uniformity and spring.

if you can't adjust any questionable leads in a daughtercard slot with a dental pick, you are looking at a real problem. The old Gary Daily Technical Services (GDTS) used to be able to replace slots on logic boards, he had that kind of robotic soldering equipment....but they've been out of business for awhile. There was another place...Twix? Something like that? They used to deal primarily with DayStar systems?

for the masses, a busted slot means a bad logic board.

[This message has been edited by magician (edited 12 December 2000).]

12-11-2000, 09:40 PM
Hey man, you keep using the word "plastic". The only plastic in that area of the PTP is the CPU fan. The legs that act as braces are STEEL. I wonder if someone has used the Power Center Pro CPU fan assembly as a jury rig. I has plastic, forked legs to brace the card. I'll try to get you a picture tomorrow. Easier than that; there are all kinds of pictures of the RAID box/CPU brace/CPU fan from different angles in both of the Power Tower Pro Manuals that I put on the FTP site.

If it's that florfed, why not put the XLR8 card in it?

[This message has been edited by Louie (edited 11 December 2000).]

12-11-2000, 09:41 PM
Thanks Magician. So if I get to that, would it be safe to remove the battery if I have to try reforming the spring clips in the mobo.

Well, I'm off to buy a multi-tester.

Since last, used power logix installer. Finally found my L2 cache (512k), but on the second restart, machine locked on Power Logix control panel load. Tried 2 times.

Okay, Going to check Power supply, battery. Will update after that.

Ta ta till later,


12-11-2000, 10:26 PM
CrazyEights, I know this has probably been said before, but I urge you to get "back to your roots".

What I mean here, I take that PTP apart, totally and let it sit for a day.
Then, put in it a 604 card in it, the minimal amount of ram, a simple internal SCSI drive (not the medalist, no RAID or SCSI cards), and other minimal parts to get it to boot.
Does it crash a lot ? Any problems ? If the simple works, slowly add things one part at a time until something goes BOOM !

You are juggling too many variables.

Mad Dog

12-11-2000, 11:46 PM
I agree whole-heartedly with MadDog (FWIW). I would strongly recommend against building it up if a base config is troublesome. 604 cards are VERY reasonably priced, and can always be resold for close to what you paid. And about removing the battery. Yes, it's safe. The only thing that does is resets some PRAM settings which could be a good thing. Disconnect the power supply and take out the battery overnight for a guaranteed discharge of all charges on the board. Well, nothing is guaranteed, but it's pretty close.

12-11-2000, 11:47 PM
Damn Maddog; that's the most sane thing I've read all day. Maybe you aren't Certifiable after all. I'm going to bed.

[This message has been edited by Louie (edited 11 December 2000).]

12-11-2000, 11:49 PM
Louie, no need to disassemble.....but the brace in this box is definitely made from dinosaur blood that has been chemically modified in order to "set-up" in a predetermined shape.......your description of the jurry rigged is right on. I think you hit it.....This is for sure a RAID box, has the fan just as you say. It may be that the plastic snap on piece was PART of an upgrade for this machine.

Thanks MadDog.....unfortunately, I have no other drives for this machine. It has been narrowed down quite a bit. The drive it came with was the medalist, but I may pull out the Miles 2 and cheetah until I resolve this.

The seller has offered to send another PTP with a different card and more memory, after I told him what Magician said about running a daughtercard side-flexxed like that.

I told him I'd get back to him, although the one he has offered to send will have 2 64Mb sticks of buffered FPM memory.

Hey Magician, you used to be an english teacher, right?

Have you noticed how my writing style is structurally "dyslexic"?


BTW, I now KNOW there is a problem with L2 cache. I installed the PowerLogix cdev stuff, and now I can't get rid of it. It must have an invisible file.

I'll keep you updated, but yes, I am sort of going backwards in eliminating things.

I'll check to see if the installer has a de-install, otherwise if anyone has any suggestions, let me know

12-11-2000, 11:55 PM
Check for an INIT in the extensions folder..."G3/G4 Profiler INIT". Can't be truned on or off via Ext Manager, but it's in the folder. And their "Control Panel" is actually a separate app that just gets installed into control panels. If you still want some pics, I can have them out tomorrow. Otherwise, glad to hear the seller is being courteous.

12-12-2000, 01:05 AM

Hold off on the pic's.

Well, I have it fairly stabilized. Deinstalled Power Logix cdev, and then reinstalled it and set the backside to the fastest it would handle which is 123.20Mhz. It is possible this is an overclocked 2xxMhz board.

I have too little memory, but I can keep this machine running......

I think I'll just wait until he sends the new PTP w/ 2x64Mb buffered FPM DIMMs, set up the narrow drive for my XLR8, then move it and my card to the new box. I think I'll just take a pass on the possibilty of there being a problem with the daughtercard slot on the mobo, since the daughtercard installation in this PTP is suspect.

I appreciate all the help you guys. Without the ftp and encouragement I couldn't have gotten to this more stable point.

Fact: up until tonight, this machine has been running without L2 cache, and now I have it back.

When I get the new machine, straightaway I'll test the power supply and battery, and do a nice long cuda reset when I go to the XLr8 card.

After this fiasco is over, it makes sense for me to get my PowerCurve tasked as a back-up mail/web machine, so I still have straight access to mail and Guru's.

You guys are the best,


12-12-2000, 03:15 AM
dang, dave.

I'm glad you are making progress. I'll bet you are learning a lot.


no problem pulling the battery and then poking around the logic board, but it goes without saying that anti-static measures are important. Make sure you are wearing all cotton clothing, no rayons or synthetics (do NOT wear a satin Japanese Sari like Darin does when he is entertaining "men friends"), make sure you are not working on carpeting (prefer wood, concrete, linoleum, tile), and make sure that you are wearing rubber-soled shoes or boots (no "catch-me, do-me" spike heels from the transvestite limited-edition Hollywood Spank catalog).

My wife is a teacher. I flunked grammar in college (well, technically I withdrew, failing, and still carry an incomplete on my transcripts, I believe).


12-12-2000, 04:23 AM
Damn, just got those babies....a hot translucent pink....sooooo precious!!! (he's on to us Darin)

Oh well. Magician your blarneyesque and gracious remark gave me a much needed gut laugh. "I'll bet you're learning a lot." (He's on to me..from the get go)

Yup, and getting more organized. Deep sixed those paper window sleeves, labeled, and put all my utilities in jewel cases. Helps make it more involved when seized with an urge to whip them across the room in an attempt to get them to stick in the wall on the makeshift target I drew on the wall.

Zapped PRAM with techtools and that seems to have cleared things up even more.

I think the memory in that power curve was suspect too, so this machine upgrade will hopefully bring me into a more stable world.

So what's the history of on the Guru's and military service? Never served (although grades 4 and 5 in a catholic military school certainly made an impression). Kinda sorry I didn't do a military stint. One of my best friends was in the (phonetic) washua valley in nam. Helluva guy, and my pops (MHRIP) was a gunner/radio operator in 24 Liberators in the Pacific.

Whichever of you guys did serve, I can only say one thing from the bottom of my heart........THANKS!!!!

Waxing emotional here....must be time to go to sleep.

From -5? f in K.C., thanks for being there guys, goodnight.

Always the best to you all,

Dave aka Green Monster aka "the verbose"

12-12-2000, 04:28 AM

12-12-2000, 04:35 AM

12-12-2000, 02:12 PM
I hope the replacement machine has the correct (factory) RAID box/legs/fan.

What bought on the salute to veterans. Was it guilt for voting for the liberals?

12-12-2000, 04:01 PM
Louie, my response to your preceeding question is in the Talkback Forum.........

and again..........THANKS!!!!

12-12-2000, 08:40 PM
>Thanks MadDog.....unfortunately, I have no other drives for this machine.

CrazyEights (hhhmm... "MadDog"... do I know you ?)

You need to achieve hardware-repair-critical-mass. What I mean is have enough spare hardware lying around (or enough machines) that you can always find a spare part to swap around for another.

I suggest:
- a small SCSI drive (plain ole SCSI 1/2), maybe 500 megs
- a 604 card that can be used in many different machines (like a powerboost pro, those 604 CPUs can be used in a lot of machines and its adjustable too - I bought it from MacGurus http://www.macgurus.com/ubb/kickass.gif card, it is.)
- enough spare RAM dimms (maybe 2-3 8 meg DIMMS)
-spare floppy drive
-an APPLE ROMed CD Drive, 4x is enough

That should be about enough to be able to play around and not cost an arm and a leg...

>Damn Maddog; that's the most sane thing I've read all day. Maybe you aren't Certifiable after all.

Take it Back ! Take it Back ! http://macgurus.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Mad Dog

12-12-2000, 09:45 PM
MD, you're right about all of that.

Is that 604e purchased from guru's awhile ago?

I don't seem to remember seeing them on the web site.

Having a new PTP being shipped to replace this one, sans potential stressed mobo daugtercard slot, has given me the excuse to release my pit bull like hold on screwin with this one. Well, plus good support from here evolved me to a point where at least I have a machine to use, although low in memory (OS 9.x is a HAWG) and still a bit flaky.....

The replacement comes with 2 x 64Mb FPM buffered DIMMS, and a g3/266, which I will probably keep.

when I get the new box, I'm just going to move the 4gig medalist and my xlr8 400Mhz over to it, and tweak it till I'm okay with the stability, THEN I'll move my Miles2 and cheetah over.

One thing I do KNOW is that my xlr8 card has always worked well, and I for sure have drivers for it. Jeez.

Should've followed louie's advice, but didn't see it until after the fact.

Okay, I'm off to brave the chill and eat Vietnamese food. Woo hoo!!

Later guys,


12-12-2000, 10:08 PM
>Is that 604e purchased from guru's awhile ago?

It was a couple of years ago, just when G3 cards started becoming available. It was a great card for the time, and no slouch now.

Mad Dog