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levelbest
04-18-2002, 10:18 AM
Hi,
I have now installed a SIIG ATA 133/100 card and a new Maxtor ATA 133 60 GIG drive in my 7600. I also installed a Sony 24x write CDRW IDE internal burner.

The drive speed is much snappier. Although I have been having some troubles getting benchmarks. Something is yet a little unstable and I get finder quits and other odd things. One thing that I would like an answer for here, if anyone knows it, is that I seem to have folders linked from my old drive to my new drive. What I mean is that I dragged my working system folder from my old 2 gig to my new 60 gig and then rebooted from the 60 gig. Works fine, except, that I can't run disk warrior from the 60 to verify the directory on the old because it says that it is still running open files (on the old drive)

Another oddity which suggests I have a second system that I have not isolated is that the startup of the new (60 gig) comes up with an old copy of now utilities that it asks me to register it. The old HD didn't used to do that. One of my back ups long ago did, but, I have to figure out now for once and for all, where the dups are and then clean it all up.

So, how can I check the newly copied folder to ensure it isn't referencing anything on the old drive? Is it the preferences folder that might be doing this? Is it calling up preferences and referring to programs on the old drive?

Not sure how to proceed on this one. Thanks for any help.

lb

ricks
04-18-2002, 11:12 AM
lb,

When you drag and drop a entire drives contents including the system folder all the paths still lead to the original drive. You have copied them over exactly.

I had this bite me once with Netscape and my accounting software. I copied everything to a new drive, left the old drive installed so I could rely on it as a backup. I then did my daily routine and ran backups of my data folder. I kept Netscapes User folder (with all my email) and the data from the accounting program in a data folder that I burned backup to CD on often, sometimes everyday.

Well, because I hadn't thought it through, the files for those programs were still being saved to the data folder on the old drive, I had copied the paths when I copied the drive. One day I had a crash and flushed the old drive, all my data since I had done the drag copy was gone.

What's worse, I had daily been burning a backup CD of a data folder that never had any data added to, all the data had been added to the now extinct drive. Not a fun thing. I will never forget that though. Hard lessons are forever lessons.

Two things you can do,

One: When you do a drag copy of a system folder, if you wnt the old drive contents as a backup for a little bit immediatly disconnect the power from the old drive and just leave it. It will stay intact as a backup but will be inaccessable to your system unless you plug it back in. Then you can be sure of the paths on the new drive.

You will still have to repair some things like your license for some programs, like Now. The path is needed exactly as before or it will ask for a new registration. You can fix the path or reregister, whichever is easier.

TWO: Run Software Restore. This resides on the Apple Install disk, I have never done this but Software Restore will fix all aliases, which is another way of saying fix all the file paths on your new system.

You might just run Software Restore, do a Sherlock to find it, highlite your drive while in Software Restore and press GO.

lasvegas is the one to tell this better than I, maybe we can get him to stop by and double check what I said here on Software Restore.

Rick

http://www.macgurus.com/ubb/batlogo.gif Batsignal invoked to lasvegas!

lasvegas
04-18-2002, 03:51 PM
Ricks' right! Software Restore is the route to go here. Your original 2GB drive is the maximum source drive you can use with Apple Software Restore. To accomplish this, boot from your OS 9.x CD and then follow these steps:

1) Scroll down to the bottom of the CD window to locate the folder Software Installers and open it.

2) Locate and open the folder Upgrader Files to find the Apple System Restore application.

3) Drag and drop your 2GB drive onto the Apple System Restore.

4) Verify that the Destination Disk is set to your new drive and the Erase option is set.

5) Click Restore.

The result will be that the new drive will contain the exact image of your old drive except that all the extra space will be there. All aliases and links will be restored correctly as well. Note that the drive name and any custom icon will also be moved so verify the new drive by size and rename the old one so you don't end up erasing the wrong one when you get to that point! http://macgurus.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Good luck!

lv

[This message has been edited by lasvegas (edited 18 April 2002).]

levelbest
04-18-2002, 04:34 PM
Unfortunately, things are getting uglier. I spent a good deal of time today trying to fix what has become a looming problem with my old drive. The drive should still be in integrity but something is definitely amiss. Both Norton Systemworks and Disk Warrior are unable to repair my directory. It seems about 1500+ files have decided to overlap and nothing so far has helped. Dam!. I have no clue how this happened. And, I think I can still access most files except when I start from that drive, it is slower than dog (do).

Fortunately, I already backed the whole 2 gig drive onto the 60 gig, which I now boot from and run. My Toast was ordered from Amazon who has an especially nice offer right now even to include free shipping. Think is, they put it on a slow boat to China and it won't even think about shipping until apr 24, even though I paid by credit card last Fri... (RRRRRR). Point? Oh yea, I don't know anything about burning yet and I assume I can't try until I get my hands on toast. The drive is running fine by the way.

As to the restore disk. I don't have one. I bought this mac a year ago in Jan and it came with a clean drive but no cd to install. And if I have to get one for future stability, at this point I will likely choose 9.1. I did get the 9.1 on the Norton cd to boot on my second Maxtor partition after dragging the whole cd there. Only I can add some components to it, and some things make it not work (after all it wasn't supposed to come off the CD), and the basic 9.1, now does work.

But no install stuff, durn it. Other ideas?

lb

ricks
04-18-2002, 05:32 PM
Well lb,

When you make it interesting, you really make it interesting.

I'd just unplug the old 2 gig. Get it out of the loop, especially since it's still being accessed. Run off the new drive, get your backups done next week.

At some point you need to get a 9.1 install CD. What get's installed from an installer is entirely different than the minimum, and questionable currentness of a third party vendor emergency startup system folder.

Apple still sells the 9.1 cd, unfortunately they don't list it online, who knows why, so you have to actually call and talk to a Apple Store saleperson, 1-800-my-apple.

Thanks lv for the great step by step. I'll keep it handy.

Rick

levelbest
04-18-2002, 11:24 PM
I guess it's time to move up to 9.1. I did a test with Lacies drive time. If I understand the results I guess I am a little disappointed. After reading about read and write speeds of 30 and 40 and even higher, I had hoped that an ATA 133 might do a little better than that. It's definitely faster than it was. And the cost per meg was fine. But I guess it's not the power drive I had dreamed of (loud sigh). http://macgurus.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

lb


Timing Test Results
by TimeDrive¬Ć 3.0.3
brought to you by LaCie¬Ć

This data set was archived on Thursday, April 18, 2002 at 11:17:26 PM.

Tested Volume Information:
Name: MAXTOR 1
Bus: SCSI: Bus 2 ID 2
Hardware ID: ATA MAXTOR 6L060J3
Total Size: 27.96 GB
Free Space: 24.73 GB
Allocation Block Size: 4096 Bytes
Allocation Block Count: 7328502
Driver Name: .ASYC00
Version: 8.1.4
Creatded: 3:34:41 PM Wednesday, April 17, 2002
Last Modification: 11:12:03 PM Thursday, April 18, 2002

Test Information:
Test Type: single size transfer test
Buffer Size: 2000 KB
Repititions: 8
Discard first test
Buffer Contents: Random Data

Average Results:
Read Transfer Rate: 16,742 ± 105 Kilobytes per Second
Write Transfer Rate: 7,183 ± 16 Kilobytes per Second

Results:
Read Transfer Rates (in Kilobytes per Second):
16,817 16,884 16,683 16,760
16,702 16,637 16,818 16,498
16,832 16,816 16,715 16,742

Write Transfer Rates (in Kilobytes per Second):
7,218 7,199 7,183 7,165
7,173 7,195 7,172 7,183
7,169 7,180 7,197 7,164

ricks
04-19-2002, 12:10 AM
lb,

Download from ATTO their free ExpressProTools. EPT has a great benchtest built in the will give you numbers to compare with all the rest of us. You can get it from attotech.com

Run the bench with all the settings default except the first one, Sample Size should be set to 8 MB.

That'll give us something to talk about.

Rick

levelbest
04-19-2002, 06:58 AM
Thanks. Looks like a nice little piece of software. I see it also formats and partitions drives. Although those features were grayed out. Did I Miss something in having them available (the buttons to reformat) or does that come with the commercial product? And if so, do you recommend it?

I used Apples drivers from 8.6 for my new 60 gig drive. I also have Lacies' formatting tool Silverlining. Their most recent drivers are still available for downloading. And of course there is my venerable FWB. But I recall that FWB really dragged their feet too long in support of system 9.x so they are probably not going to return to my A list anytime soon.

Please tell me, is the ATTO software recommended for future formatting and disk partitioning schemes? I went with an Apple driver instead of Lacie this time because I am , as we already discussed, going over to 9.1 soon. I thought with that, and still wanting to hack around with OSX someday, would suggest staying with Apples drivers for better future stability - especially with OSX. Opinions on that?

Here are the benchmarks. Now I do feel better. These rates are better than I was thinking from the last posting. Of course, if there is a way to improve them with different drivers or other configs, I am more than willing to hear about it.

Much thanks.

lb

With VM on

Peak Read 30.53 MB/s
Sust Read 30.33 MB/s

Peak write 14.66 MB/s
Sust write 14.41 MB/s

VM on or off seemed to have no effect.
I ran it with System Disk Cache checked:

Peak Read 127.74 MB/s
Sust Read 30.03 MB/s

Peak write 95.11 MB/s
Sust write 15.00 MB/s

PS - Apparently the formatting features are grayed out becasue it doesn't recognize ATA drives (manual)

[This message has been edited by levelbest (edited 19 April 2002).]

ricks
04-19-2002, 12:03 PM
lb,

Express Pro Tools is only good for formating scsi, and even there I'd say SoftRAID and Apple Drive Setup is better. Use the Pro Tools for benchtesting.

I have no idea what the limits are with the PCI bus on a 7600. When I did some testing with the ATA133 RAID card in a 8500 I get the same numbers or even a little lower with the RAID turned on as with the raid off.

They were:


--PR-----SR-------PW------SW---
28.98---28.24----37.98---37.66

This was on a 8500 using 2 ATA66 Maxtor drives on the ATA133 Hardware RAID card with the RAID on. The performance with the RAID off was a minute bit higher.

I think you should still be getting a little higher performance than that. Especially the write. Those peaks are way up there. I have never tested with system caching on since this tests the speed of your ram and not the hard drive, I like to just test the drive without interference from the rest of the system. (as if that's possible, but we try to limit it as much as we can)

We'll see if someone has an idea why the writes are lower than the reads, could be just a PCI bus issue.

Rick

levelbest
04-23-2002, 01:41 AM
What a long, strange trip it's been....

I have had a very hard time with my new SIIG card. I have had some serious problems with directories becoming destroyed and with overlapping files out the wazzoo. I also could not initialize my drive from the front card channel. Much later I learned that one of my cables was sub standard and now miraculously I can use the front channel too.

I sent SIIG an email for help with this last Wed. This morning I started getting a little aggressive in trying to get more than an auto response tommy problem. It took all day to finally get one persons email. I am not at all fond of SIIG's tech support just now.

I am seriously considering asking for an RMA and just sending the card back and ordering the Sonnet ATA 100 card instead. Just to ease my frustration I called the Sonnet tech support team. No problem getting through and quite helpful.

The headache is from the troubles with my files. I even lost one whole partition. Thankfully those files were duplicates. But the drive they are on still has a severely corrupted directory and I am crossing my fingers I will be able to pull all this out eventually.

At least I found that there was a firmware upgrade on the ACARD site. Now at least my write times are up there with my read times.

Peak read: 31.14 MB/s
Sust read: 24.93 MB/s

Peak write: 31.60 MB/s
Sust write: 31.42

Any experience in verification that the Granite cable would really make a difference here?

Thanks.

lb

ricks
04-23-2002, 02:06 AM
I hate to say it but the only Siig card I have ever seen was the ATA133 hardware RAID card made by Acard and packaged by siig with excellent TPO cables. I have had zero issues with the card at all. It installed flawlessly easy and has had no quirks at all. That doesn't do much for your present problem.

The cables I got are light tan TPO cables that seem quite good in quality. Nice connectors that hook up securely yet smoothly. No complaints, I doubt anything would be gained over them with Granite Digital, and that's saying a lot. IDE is not nearly as fussy when it comes to cables though. But I have no idea if they packaged the same cables with the host card as the RAID card.

I still think you could be having troubles that started with a bad copy from a drive of problematical or dubious reliability. If you copied over bad files from a badly indexed or failing drive, then you had problems where you were crashing and doing hard restarts, you are just asking to have a trashed new drive. First thing should be a clean install, then you can troubleshoot.

I don't know how to get around that. Maybe disk Warrior would help if you have bad indexing, only things I can think of off hand.

Rick

unclemac
04-23-2002, 02:44 AM
lb,

For what it is worth, I bought the same SIIG 100/133 card, and have been using it for a couple months in this BW G3 350 without a single hiccup: booting to both OS 10.1.3(4) and 9.2, and using classic mode with X. No crahses, no corrupt data, nothing. I have 10.1.4 on one drive, and 9.2 on a second drive; seperate cables for each drive. The Mac and I are both very happy.

I checked forums here to verify that the SIIG card and the Sonnet card (and others I think) are made by Acard. I mention this because I would hate to see someone go through the joy of returning one, buying the other, only to end up with essentially the same card and the same problem, because it was a cable or somthing else... I hear you on the lousy tech support, but (assuming you don't have another problem) what if it is just a bad card? SIIG should replace it I would think.

Any thoughts Gurus? Is an Acard an Acard regardless of branding? My understanding is that the firmware upgrades should work on the SIIG, irregardless of the vender source...

Hey Ricks/LV: Talking of moving system folders... Assuming lb had a nince clean disc/partition, why not use disc copy? Other than the compression, is this any different/better than dragging/copying? And how about a reinstall of the core OS after installimg from the image? I have been doing this for a while on imacs with good success, but sounds like RESTORE is the way to go. I had always thought RESTORE restored the imac back to factoy specs - as in wipe the drive and reinstall everything original. Not so even on imacs?

TIA.

levelbest
04-23-2002, 07:48 AM
The card came with the tan cable. And that does the job with my Sony CDRW I got at the same time. But it won't work with the drive it came with. The Sony's gray cable is what works.

If I knew what had caused the cross linked files I would rest a lot easier. I have Norton System Works and I have DiskWarrior. I have more confidence in DiskWarrior and I am not using Norton at all until I Get this all resolved. My two original drives, a 2 gig Seagate and a 4 gig LaCie are still here. the 2 gig was my main drive and was maxed out. I was booting off that one when I first tried to initialize the IDE Maxtor on channel one. What ever happened, happened to the 2 Gig as well. Because it is royally screwed up as well. I can boot from it but it is dig slow. It is now full of overlapping files. The Alsoft tech (DiskWarrior) says that DW may look like it is hanging but if I have a lot of overlapped files and some of them are large, it could take a VERY long time. On stage 6 of the directory rebuilding process the DW window turns into a little progress barber pole to indicate constant progress. It stops. Then every minute, or 2-3 minutes, it ticks forward one tick. I spent a full 2 hours of yesterday waiting to see if it was going to get over that. I finally bailed out.

I do have my 4 Gig still on my desk but no longer on the machine. Until I get a handle on what the heck is going on i just didn't want to corrupt it too. Yesterday I lost a whole 30 gig partition. Mostly it was my main files backed up. But it unnerved me greatly just the same. My 4 gig has some backups on it but not my recent stuff.

For what it's worth, I have a buddy who got the same SIIG card for his 7300. He said it went without a hitch. He raved about how easy it was actually. He's a PC guy and apparently such an easy install is rare in his world. Wish I could say the same for me. :-(

lb

ricks
04-23-2002, 11:30 AM
Isn't funny how on those rare occasions that we have a glitch we think "I coulda had a PC and enjoyed these problems".

Software Restore. One name, two different things. First time I saw it was the Software Restore Disk that came with my G4. This is a restore to factory state of the disk image on your hard drives. Then there's a program called Software Restore. It resides on your installer CD and following lasvegas's instruct you will be able to move the contents of a hard drive, including the system folder, and repair in place all the aliases whilst doing so. Very cool. But you need a installer CD.

Any other method of moving pre OSX to another drive has issues that are discussed below in other posts. (OSX is a whole nuther kettle of fish)

I know that there are differences in Acard model and Siig model RAID cards. Even though both are made by Acard, Acard does not support the Siig nor will Acard's flashing utility for OSX flash the rom on the Siig. I have no idea if that means there are differences in the ATA100/133 host card or not.

It would be nice if Siig had some tech support. I don't see any way you can get around doing either of two things, return the card for replacement or refund, or get a installer CD and troubleshoot. You might have to get the installer anyway since the old drive doesn't really work now.

Disk Warrior: When I had my BIG crash it must have taken 4 hours for Disk Warrior to get through crunching my hard drives data to restore the index. THis is a HUGE job. DW must look at your whole drive, try and figure out where the beginning and end of all your files are and recreate the markers at the beginning and end of each file. This is made worse by the fact that files are not written in one contiguous chunk but almost always split and fragmented. DW has to find where a file starts, ends the first time and starts again and ends again and starts ag....... and on and on. Long job that you can leave DW to.

Another thing to realize, DW will probably allow you to rescue the data but will probably not repair the index. You will have rescued item folders all over your hard drive when DW is finished. What you should plan on in this kind of situation is to be ready to copy your files to another storage device as soon as DW is finished. Then you reinstall software and go through your rescued data files carefully to see if they all work. Not a perfect world, but this will save your data files like email and bookmarks and so on. Better than the alternatives.

Rick

levelbest
04-23-2002, 01:11 PM
Sigh. I am now back to totally SCCI. Taking time, carefully pulling out just one decent backup. I called Provantage this mornig to request an RMA for the SIIG card. I told them how big a pproblem this has been and hopfully they won't push a restocking fee as this has essentially been a DOA experience. If they play nice I will just pay the extra $15 and get the Sonnet card. If not, I'll get it somewhere else. I have learned the most about my card from talking with a Sonnet tech. So,since customer service has always been important to me, I think it's time to switch.

The Sonnet tech said that the SIIG card and the Sonnet card are NOT the same card. I thought they were? He said that the Sonnet card was the only true ATA and therefore the only true card with full atapi support. I also thought that the SIIG, being 133 vs the Sonnet, being 100, should be faster. But Barefeats.com had a review that very much suggested otherwise. Apparently the Sonnet card kicks butt. - As long as it is fast AND my data stays stable, I will be a happy camper.

I have gotten to the place where DW finished and could not replace as it was unsalvageable according to DW. But both times I got that far, running off the stock DW boot CD, the finder stated quitting on me and I got zilch accomplished. I have no idea why the finder would quit on a CD like that?

Oh well, back to wading through the mess. At least so far I can still get to all my data. Unstable but present. I did order 9.1. It is on a fedex truck from Ca as we speak and probably wont be here till Friday. So finally I will have a restore disk. That will be a huge relief. And I did love how snappy the new IDE set up was - when it worked. I am going to download that benchmarking software (have to find it again for this disk). I want to see just what the numbers were on this old stock "fast" scci. (he he)

lb

ricks
04-23-2002, 03:29 PM
lb,

Can I send you my unqualified sympathy? When a installation goes bad...........

I like Sonnet. I have no idea what manufacturer the Siig card is actually made by. I only know that the Siig RAID card is made by Acard.

I would also agree with the Sonnet tech that full ATAPI support is important. No telling when a non-ATAPI card would decide to crap out on you, well, there is a way to tell, it would happen at the MOST inconvienant time possible.

Glad to hear you got a installer on the way. Good luck getting all your files squared away.

Rick

unclemac
04-23-2002, 04:48 PM
lb -

That's rough.

I don't know near enough to have a qualified opinion about which card is made by who, and are they essentially the same or not. All I know is that my SIIG shows up in ASP as an ACARD, and I bet your Sonnet will too (does not mean they are the same though).

I guess we may never know for sure the cause (cable, drag copy of system, defective card, or just inferior product). All that really matters is stability and performance in the end. Hope it goes smooth as silk the second time like mine did the first...keep us posted either way.

Ricks: As for full ATAPI support - how would a user know one way or the other? All the SIIG literature claims full support (bootable, use with CD ROM, etc,) -any thing I can look for or test, just for curisitie's sake???

ricks
04-23-2002, 05:37 PM
"Not Very" Newbie,

I just want it very clear that we should buy cards that plainly state ATAPI support if we're going to install a burner or a DVD on them. There are several cards that specifically do not state ATAPI support and I would hate to purchase a card for hard drive and CD use only to find out it wasn't intended to support ATAPI drives.

Rick

unclemac
04-23-2002, 06:49 PM
OK, I was just over at Barefeats.com, and I see that the Sonnet 66 board and the Acard (SIIG) 66 board were identical, but no mention of the newer 100/133s. So, perhaps they are completely different after all. I will have to do some testing to see what kind of numers I get with the SIIG, and read the fine print about ATAPI support, maybe my memory is just shot...

BTW - Can I change my user name, or do I just have to start over (newbie again?!!!) As always, thanks Ricks!

lasvegas
04-23-2002, 08:03 PM
The fact that the board claims CD-ROM support indicates that they claim ATAPI (IDE removable media) support.

levelbest
04-24-2002, 11:27 AM
Oye, such troubles we are having... I am borrowing another computer to check in here. Mine has developed another rash of troubles. After running Disk warrior three times in a row, it got progressively worse errors each time. And that was without doing ANYTHING that would have accessed the disk, I mean three ties in succession, no restarts, nothing. Since yesterday afternoon about 3 PM EST I have booted off the DW CD and it is finding beau coupe overlapped files (sob) on my backup disk. Oh God I hope I don't loose it all. I am now up to 2150 and counting, the process is still running.

The good news is that, assuming I can salvage my files, I have 9.1 coming from Apple. Also the Sonnet card. Toast finally arrived. So, all the players are finally here. (Sad to say I may have to file fraud charges from the non existent voodoo card I sent money into the ethers for on ebay back on APR 1st) But, ever the optimist, I am oh, so close to having a retro Mac system that truly rocks!

The Sonnet tech said that their card was the only true atapi supporting card. From that I got the impression that the SIIG will do it, but that it must somehow use smoke and mirrors or something. The Sony CDRW and even the Maxtor ran on the SIIG. Turns out it came with a bad cable which is why it would not format from the front channel.

And yes, the ATA 66 versions were identical, but this is apparently a later development. The SIIG card is still made by ACARD.

My gut feeling about all this mess is that I did something very wrong when I used the system 9.1 included on the Norton Systemworks CD to boot from on one of my partitions. I had to see if it would work, it did. But when I decided to get rid of it, it just disappeared. And that may have been the same time as all this mess started. Very close to the time the new card went in too so it’s hard to tell. But something seems to be really quite aggressively after my directory integrity. A virus perhaps?

What's a man's version of ruby slippers? There's no place like reliable backed up data, There's no place like reliable backed up data, There's no place like reliable backed up data...

lb

levelbest
04-24-2002, 12:56 PM
Here's another thought. Please speak up if you have knowledge of this one. SCCI devices in SCCI chains need proper SCCI termination, I was not thinking about that when I was swapping in and out with my old Apple CD drive and the Sony IDE burner. I also was booting off just the IDE channel without the old SCCI devices, or partially installed (CD player but no disk). And so, perhaps that could have been part of my problems?

I am thinking that I might do a little doctoring and remove the plastic that enclosed the floppy drive in the 7600 chassis. It is really so easy to add and to remove devices from this chassis. If I can pull that off (retro fitting a way to at least re-plug the floppy when I need/want to) then I can have my apple drive for booting and my Sony burner for rock & roll, lock and loading.

I now have Toast but I am still waiting on the 20 hour and counting directory rebuild on the one partition before I can play with the Sonnet card or the toast.. So I don't know a lot about burning yet, but, I was thinking that with two CD drives it might be pretty easy to drag tracks from one to another and make "best of" CDs, etc.

But I digress. Any thought on the SCCI chain in all this? Thanks.

lb