PDA

View Full Version : IDE Upgrade



einreb
01-22-2002, 12:15 AM
I have a G3 MT (at least Rev 2) Ziffed to a G4/400. I've got the floppy, a Plextor 16x CD-RW drive, the Zip drive and a blank space at the bottom of the case. I am running 9.2 and want to add a second IDE drive to run OS X from. I also want to upgrade my cables as I have been having errors with Toast Titanium and Disk At Once making coasters. In regards to the ways things are now, Apple Profiler says that my CD-RW (ID 0) and my Zip (ID 1) share ATA 1, and the hardrive is on ATA 0 with ID 0) Please tell me what I need to order and what I need to do. Thanks in advance!

ricks
01-22-2002, 12:28 AM
Just to be absolutely certain, what's your profiler say that you ROM revision is?
Rick

einreb
01-22-2002, 12:57 AM
Hi Ricks...$77D.45F1

ricks
01-22-2002, 01:38 AM
einreb,
Great, you hit the nail, revision2.

You should have an extra bay, there are four. Your current drive should be mounted on top of the power supply. You should be able to add a drive to the bottom bay. You have floppy,zip,cd and an open bay with a blank bezel.

Because you have a revision2 you can just add a slave drive and off you go. Get a Barracuda or IBM from the Gurus at
http://www.macgurus.com/shoppingcart/showrampage.cgi?idepagesofheck.html

Configure the new drive as slave. Make sure the original drive is configured as master. Some drives use 'single' when running by themselves and must be jumpered as master to run with a slave. Usually it's best if the drive on the end of the cable is the master drive.

It does not matter whether your fastest drive is the master, however to take advantage of the faster speed of todays drives I would install my system folder and applications on the newer/faster drive.

The IDE controller on Beige G3's (and B&W G3s for that matter) are dog-slow. If you want more speed from your hard drive upgrade then consider an ATA100 or ATA133 PCI card. You would use that instead of the factory controller, this would probably quadruple your hard drive performance, plus or minus some depending on the drives you get. This is not nessesary, only a speed advantage will be had.

Hope that helps, you can get drive screws from Radio Shack if you need them, or order some with your drive(I think you can order them) The bottom bay has a sled that slides out with two screws from the front that the drive will mount directly to.

Rick

einreb
01-22-2002, 02:02 AM
Ricks, I have a USB PCi card, an upgraded 3d card and the original video card that came with the computer. Do I need to keep the original video card in if I'm not using it? Also, when I open the computer case, where will I plug in the second hard drive? Is this where I need a different cable? Thanks so much for your info and input...its appreciated.

ricks
01-22-2002, 04:05 AM
einreb,
You should be able to remove a PCI card that your not using. When you install a new PCI card in that slot you will probably have to reset the CUDA on the motherboard to get the boot to re-appraise all the hardware config and adjust for the new card. At that point you'll also have to redo your preferences like memory, monitor, the clock etc, these will be set to defaults as well.

If your cable does not have an extra connector then you will need a new cable. 40pin and 80 wire is what you want. You can get that from the Gurus also. Or, if you decide to get a PCI ATA host card they usually come with a new 2 drive cable.

Just about anywhere will have the cable that you need. Last thing not mentioned, don't forget ram. If your already upgraded to 384 or more you have just about the hottest beige G4 around. I say at least 384MB because you'll appreciate it when you get into OSX with your G4. OSX loves ram and you'll never see ram cheaper than it is now.

That was just a thought about the whole package. You have already done so much to improve your mac I wanted to make sure you'd covered ram too. Don't take offense if you get alot of info that you already know on this forum, it's always easier to say it than assume someone knows it.

Good luck with the drive, you shouldn't find it very difficult to install.
Rick

einreb
01-22-2002, 01:56 PM
Ricks, thanks again for the great info. One last question: I tried to find reports on various ATA cards for the Mac. Xlr8 only reviewed one. Are there some clear winners for the G3/G4 PCI that I should know about? Have a great day!

ricks
01-22-2002, 09:54 PM
einreb,
I think you get the fastest host card you can find. There aren't that many card manufacturers for the mac. Sonnet and Miglia both appear to be either made by Acard or at least the exact same design. I am running the Acard ATA133 hardware raid card. ( Slap two identical ATA100 drives into your computer, hook up to the Acard raid and you double the performance of the single drive.)

Acard is also making a plain jane ATA100/133 host card. I would not buy a slower card today when current spec drives are all ATA100 at least.

You cab buy Acard at: http://www.microlandusa.com/microland/

Reviews of the Acard raid and ATA100 card at barefeats: http://www.barefeats.com/hard21.html

XLR8 review: http://www.xlr8yourmac.com/IDE/IDE_RAID/acard_ata133_raid_report.html

Hope that helps.
Rick

einreb
01-22-2002, 10:25 PM
Ricks, you have done more than I ever hoped for by giving me all these straight answers. I really appreciate your time and energy. I'm going to order the Sonnet (since the review seems to say that they are a little faster than Acard tested in non-Raid config- at least I think that what it says). Although some other sight xlr8? - said they are made by the same people. I will upgrade my cables and add the second hard drive. I am already holding 416 Mg of Ram so that should be good when I get to OS X next week. Then I guess I will have about the most kickin' a** G3MT around. I'll let you know when its all up and running. Again, you're a swell guy. Thanks for your help!!! http://macgurus.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

ricks
01-23-2002, 12:11 AM
I think the review was testing the Sonnet ATA100 host card versus the Acard ATA133 Hardware RAID card. The comparison you got would be between the two with the RAID card in NON-RAID configuration. I found the same performance proportions, the RAID card is at its best in RAID. (Which is not all bad)

The Sonnet card is the same card as the Acard ATA100/133 host card(not the RAID version). Acard has updated the ROM on the ATA100 card to the ATA133 spec.

Your performance should be exactly the same with either the Sonnet or the Acard. Price and availability become the more important consideration.

Rick

kaye
01-23-2002, 12:52 AM
Sonnet just announced a new Tempo RAID133 (hardware RAID) http://www.sonnettech.com/product/tempo_raid133.html k

wingman
01-23-2002, 06:52 PM
Ricks,

Both the Sonnet Tempo/66 raid and non-raid cards were repackaged Acard/66 raid and non-raid cards, respectively.

But the Sonnet Tempo/100 is *not* the same card as an Acard/100-133 (non-RAID). The Tempo/100 was made with or by Promise -- says as much in the press release, look under "Pricing and Availability": http://sonnettech.com/news/press/pr2001/pr071801_tempo100.html
But the Acard/100-133 is an Acard. So there may be some performance difference. Been some noise in the Apple forums -- people being unable to boot of the Tempo/100, someone who couldn't install X on HD attached to the Tempo.

Miglia (European-based) and Siig (US-based) sell repackaged Acards/100-133 (both the raid and non-Raid). Provantage.com sells the Siigs for cheap. The price on the Siig raid is $25 less than what I paid from Fry's/Outpost; I think the non-RAID is under $80. Yes the Siig Raid is an Acard Raid -- can't fool ASP.

I have no idea whether the new Sonnet Tempo/133 Raid is also an Acard. But judging by the picture it looks really close.

[This message has been edited by wingman (edited 23 January 2002).]

ricks
01-23-2002, 07:37 PM
Hey Wingman,

Thanks very much for the clarity. I can't tell you how many times the question comes up, and which cards are which determines performance similarities without having to chase each repackaged units specs and reviews down.

I closely looked at the new Sonnet 133 raid picture when it came out and noticed the 'similarity'. But it sure seemed there were a couple of dissimilarities too. Enough to wonder what Sonnet might have done. Nice if Sonnet improved the performance to justify the higher price.

Thanks again,
Rick

wingman
01-23-2002, 07:45 PM
Ricks,

No problem.

I guess we'll have to wait for someone to plunk down the cash for the Tempo/133 RAID to see if it's merely a really expensive Acard. I would hope that they've done something. Provantage sells the Siig/Acard Raid for $128 + change. I double-checked, the non-RAID card goes for $72.26.
http://www.provantage.com/fp_66837.htm

ricks
01-23-2002, 08:29 PM
Just for that, Wingman, I'm going to order one for my G4.
Rick

Garrett_A
02-25-2002, 10:22 PM
I just ordered an IBM Deskstar 60 GB 7200 rpm drive and an Acard ATA/133 host for my PPC 8600. I was looking at a Seagate 18.4 GB that would connect to the internal Fast SCSI connector when I realized I could get over 3 times the "real estate" for about the same cost if I bought the ATA card. I know the 50 Mhz system bus will slow me down but I'm hoping the new drive will be equal at least to the original Seagate 2.1 5400 rpm drive.

My newbie question is, will I also be able to connect an ATAPI device, like a DVD drive or CDR to this host? Or are ATA and ATAPI different beasts entirely?

Garrett
Ann Arbor

ricks
02-25-2002, 11:52 PM
Hi ya Garrett,

Looks like the Acard, unlike the Sonnet card will support ATAPI Burners, at least that's how they put it on the Acard features/spec page.
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>


True Mac OS X support
OS X, OS 8.5, OS 9 all on same firmware
Designed for G4, G3, 9x00, 8x00 and 7x00
Supports Ultra 133/100/66/33 hard drives and ATAPI
CD-writer.
Supports capacity larger than 137GB Hard disk<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I have no idea what that really means in real world compatibility. I wouldn't recommend totally replacing your scsi CD-Rom, startups and Keyboard shortcuts depend on the scsi ID3 stock position of a Apple ROM'd CD.

On the performance side I would expect a huge speed increase over the 5400rpm stock bus scsi drive. When you get it setup try running a benchtest using ATTO Techs ExpressProTools benchtest utility. Free download from attotech.com

Rick

Garrett_A
02-26-2002, 02:03 PM
Thanks for the info! I can hadly wait for the delivery! We're having a blizzard here today so maybe tomorrow will be a snow day and I can set up my new drive...

I've read lots of messages on the Mac8500-L "board" from folks who've upgraded their stock cd-rom to a cd-rw or at least a faster drive. I would like to be able to copy (to my external scsi burner) at 8x or faster...so far when I push it past 4x I end up with another coaster. The most frequent problem cited on mac8500 seems to be the different audio cabling between the Apple-branded stock cd-rom and the Plextors, Yamahas, or Spressas that people seem to be replacing them with.

I found a deal on a pulled Apple-branded "Superdrive" that looked tempting.

You'd advise against it, right? Other than the bezel, would this be a feasible replacement for the stock cd? Is the OS really looking for the cd-rom to physically be there or just the drivers?

Thanks for the support!

Garrett

ricks
02-26-2002, 02:23 PM
Garrett,

The boot ROM is what is programed to 'look' at the Internal SCSI BUS ID#3 when you hold down the 'c' key during startup. If you move the CD-Rom to another bus that will no longer work. Not usually a big deal, just inconvienent.

You should have no problem using the 'superdrive' to do your burning. I have never been able to succesfully burn at 8X on my Quicksilver so that may be a unrealistic goal though. Besides, your internal CD is at least a 12X I think, that's faster than the burner anyway, so I don't think that's the issue.

If at all possible it would be nice to leave the factory CD-Rom in place just for those bad day CD boots, but if it isn't possible you'll learn to live without it.

Rick

levelbest
03-03-2002, 09:52 PM
I just read this thread, most timely and excellent for me. I am about to get either the SIIG 133 or the Raid Siig 133. Provantage has the best deal so far. My question: I also want to put in a CD burner. I could go external but the internal cd burner is going bad now. So, why not replace it with an upgrade...

I posted elsewhere about the burner so I won't go into that here. But the card makes a friends mac recognize the new drive as scci2 ID 0. He also has a scci ID 0. So, since the new card should give ATAPI support, and the Mac recognizes it as SCCI, will the new card really work with a cd burner for ATAPI standards?

And, if I go with the hardware Raid card, will each drive need to be a master and so leaving nothing for the extra cd burner?

Thanks

lb

ricks
03-03-2002, 11:44 PM
Heylb,

I looked over your other post and see your wanting the IDE bus for a 7300. Several of us were just running tests of the ATA133 Hardware RAID cards in Vintage PCI Macs. It appears, and this is somewhat conjecture, that in older PCI Macs that have the 32bit PCI bus you will not see a speed gain from the RAID card being turned on.

The RAID gives acceptable performance in a Beige G3 but so far in a 8500 and a Power Tower Pro going from a single drive on the ATA133 card to 2 drives in RAID actually lost a little performance.

I would recommend the plain ATA133 host card as your best IDE answer, it seems that will give good performance for the dollar.

Just so you know how hardware RAID cards work, when you turn on the RAID function of the host card you will have ONLY the 2 or 4 drives striped together. No other devices are allowed on the bus then. You should always have 2 or 4 matched drives on the bus so that when the raid is turned on it's balanced.

I don't have a problem with looking for performance in an accessory burner, I think the best thing you can do though is to keep a good CD-Rom on the factory bus for startup purposes. That leaves you able to hold down the 'C' key to boot from the CD. Another bonus is you can burn CDs directly from the CD-Rom to the burner without making a disk image, great time saver.

Rick

levelbest
03-04-2002, 12:39 AM
Thanks Ricks, That will save some bucks. I wanted to be careful in choosing a new 133 vs an older 66 ata card as I thought this would be better eventually for system x. I really do want to get system X in this box some day. And so I like to think in future terms also. (I know, the new macs are really cheap compared to bang for the buck upgrading this old 7300. But, hey, it's fun too.)

Can you say more about the CD burner? I have never done this so I only comprehend what I have read (but never experienced). The SIIG 133 card, likely what I will get, will allow me to get a new larger IDE drive. I can put in a slave eventually but I might start out by keeping my scci in the second bay.

But I had also assumed, that this would allow me to add an IDE (atapi) cd burner to the new card, as an internal to replace the factory cd reader on the 7300. Is this a false assumption, preference for using the scci ID#3 and booting on the cd aside?

And what does the SIIG card actually do for an ide cd burner if the Mac "sees" the drive as scci? I is corn-fused... The atapi compatible card should mate with an atapi compatible drive. But the Mac "sees it as scci...

If the cd burners I have mentioned, Yamaha and Plextor, can fit where the factory cd was, and the new SIIG card will hook it up, are you saying that there is no way to make the Mac "see" the replacement drive on scci ID #3 anymore?

My stock CD is starting to go bad. I thought it completely bad but it has good days and bad days. But it needs replacing too. Not having an emergency boot procedure is a scary thought. I have relied on that method more than I care to remember.

So first of all, will it work? And second, what are you suggesting with the need to keep the internal cd bootable? Replacing the bad cd with a replacement stock cd, non burner? Or maybe I should be asking this differently. What cd burners will actually replace the stock cd reader and still be able to boot the Mac? SCCI only?

(I do have an external LaCie scci shell that I could put a 4 gig back in for such boots I suppose)

lb

ricks
03-04-2002, 01:47 AM
Good questions all!

When you install a card that emulates scsi the only 'place' that it looks like scsi is to the motherboard via the PCI controller. On the attached drive side of that host card everything is still IDE. You can think of it as an adapter of sorts. The only caveat to that is the index can be written different than if the ATA drive was on a pure IDE bus. I have not found this to be true with my Siig or Acard ATA133 raid card though. Drives attached to my motherboard bus on the quicksilver can be attached to the ATA133 host card and will work fine. Others have not had this work, drives formated on a scsi emulating ATA card don't show up as mountable on their motherboard IDE bus.

Next thing is using a CD-Rom on any PCI added bus will change the device ID to a different one than what the ROM looks for. When you look in Apple System Profiler you will see your current CD-Rom is at "SCSI bus0-ID#3. The SCSI bus0 is part of the drive location as well as the ID#3 and indicates the internal SCSI bus. The Bus# is part of the 'C' key startup shortcut and this can't be changed.

There are other keyboard shortcuts that can aid you in starting up on the CD though even if you change your CD to another bus. For example the command to "Startup from any Disk Besides the Current Startup Disk" is done by holding down the Command-Option-Control-Delete keys during startup. If the only other system folder is on the CD it will startup from there.

When it comes to burners and CD-Roms I have always liked to have both. I want the fastest CD-Rom I can find, especially as how cheap they are. I always have tried to keep that CD-Rom in its original config to maintain my ability to use all the shortcuts. I have been able to find the most obscure ways to crash a Mac that you'd ever imagine, having a usable CD is important to me.

Because you have a desktop model you can't just add a burner to an empty bay, so other possibilities come to mind. One is to add a USB/Firewire card and install a Firewire Burner. That would be a good choice if you have the open PCI slots for that and the ATA card. Most cost effective choice.

You also would give up no Burner performance just installing a external SCSI burner to your motherboard scsi bus. Plextor externals kick butt and the warranty is the best! I know, I sent one back for a funky tray not wanting to close all the way. 2 days to get a new one.

Easiest of all of course is to replace the internal scsi CD-Rom with a internal SCSI Burner that you can boot from. Then add your hard drive bus in whatever flavor suits you (ATA66, ATA100, ATA133, UltraWide SCSI, LVD SCSI and so on) You can add a second CD-Rom to any bus, anywhere you want and your shortcuts will work on the CD that's in the scsi ID#3 spot.

I like to do all my CD reading from a CD-Rom and save my expensive burner for burns. I now have a Quicksilver with the factory combo drive that is CD-RW and DVD read, I never burn faster than 4X and usually 2X to make sure it's perfect. Speed is just not very important to me on burns and I do one everyday.

Your mileage may vary, this is just my opinion and what works for me. Just about any combination of buses that get the job done will work for you.

If your looking for performance from your drives I would also recommend that you look at a Miles2 SCSI card and a couple of Barracudas or Cheetahs as a faster and higher quality setup than the ATA stuff. More expensive? Yeah. But I have found it's worth it.

Enjoy setting up your upgrade, learning and figuring out what's best for you is one of the fun parts.

Rick

[This message has been edited by ricks (edited 04 March 2002).]

levelbest
03-04-2002, 12:06 PM
When you said:
There are other keyboard shortcuts that can aid you in starting up on the CD though even if you change your CD to another bus. For example the command to "Startup from any Disk Besides the Current Startup Disk" is done by holding down the Command-Option-Control-Delete keys during startup. If the only other system folder is on the CD it will startup from there.
--------
I don't have my Mac Secrets book in from of me but, using the sprained wrist method, I can tell the SCCI bus exactly which SCCI ID to boot from. So what you are saying is, once I learn the new SCCI ID of the new internal ide CD writer, that it is still possible to boot from a CD with an internal IDE CD drive and the SIIG card, just no longer possible using the "C" key method?
--------
When you said:
When it comes to burners and CD-Roms I have always liked to have both. I want the fastest CD-Rom I can find, especially as how cheap they are. I always have tried to keep that CD-Rom in its original config to maintain my ability to use all the shortcuts. I have been able to find the most obscure ways to crash a Mac that you'd ever imagine, having a usable CD is important to me.
--------
Where can I find a CD player cheap? The 12x Plextor writer is about $75 after rebate. That is about as cheap as any CD players I have seen so far. Even if the writer craps out and it's "just" a 32x reader, seems like a reasonable alternative. Yes? Similarly, the Yamaha 24x Writer is $99 after rebate.

And, I am assuming that the SIIG card won't give me any external plugging options. IDE seems only good for internals, correct? External CD player/writer options would have to be SCCI, Firewire or USB, correct?

lb

ricks
03-04-2002, 01:51 PM
lb

You have a good handle on this. Firewire drives BTW use IDE drives and a Firewire/IDE bridge to adapt the firewire bus to IDE drives. Same with the USB drive, I wouldn't want to put a hard drive on a USB bus though, too slow!

The only thing I never have tried or heard of is your select scsi ID# startup command shortcut from Mac Secrets. I don't know if that would work on a IDE/PCI bus, no idea.

Your also correct that the differences between IDE and scsi is flexibility that includes things like externals and that scsi can have 15 devices on a bus, IDE is limited to 2 per channel. There are quite a few other differences but those are the obvious ones.

I haven't looked at CD-Roms in a while, doing searches while I was building up my older computers to sell off I found 12 and 24X Apple rom CDs going for 29 to 45 dollars all over the place. That might have been a flooded market back then. I don't have any issue with a $75 Plextor burner being the main drive, great price.

One place I would mind using the burner for day to day would be if I had a Superdrive, at $400 plus dollars it really makes sense to have a CD-Rom to do the basic read chores.

I don't think you go wrong with any of the choices.

Let me know what the Mac Secrets say about the ID thing, I love a new trick.

Rick

Damien
03-04-2002, 10:20 PM
Drive Setup will give you the scsi bus # and the ID # of any ATA drive attached to an ATA card that emu's scsi With this info, that wrist straining key combo should work

levelbest
03-05-2002, 12:42 AM
----------
And if youve got several bootable drives attached to your Mac a Zip,
a Jaz, and a CD-ROM, for example you can start up from a specific one
by pressing (during startup) a keystroke wed never even heard of before:
?-Option-Shift-Delete-number key, corresponding to the SCSI ID number of the disk you want. You may need to invite some friends over to help you hold down all those keys... MacSecrets
----------
When I was going through a failing HD on my old 575 I used this procedure - a lot. So that would work on an internal ide burner with a SCCI id other than 3, maybe. Maybe because my friend just put a SIIG 133 card in his 7300 and he says it recognizes the card as a scci2, ID zero. Which means that he now has not one but two SCCI id chains. So maybe it will boot with wrist strain, and maybe not. Let me know if you try it and it works?

I still don't know for certain if the Yamaha is also going to work on my system. Neither it nor the Plextor are advertised for the Mac. But Gurus well recommends Plextor. SO I am trying to extrapolate that the Yamaha MUST also work. Is this a reasonable assumption, if its IDE and ATAPI and the right footprint?

And, what sort of software should I be shopping for for the burner? I have SIlverlining and HDTK. But I am reading the ads for Hard Disk SpeedTools 3.4 and wondering if that would be a good investment? Apples formatting may be as good as the next one. I am planing for system X eventually so that means stability and compatibility, as well as speed. Is any of this software applicable to a cd burner? (I've never had one so I don't know)

Thanks again

lb

levelbest
03-05-2002, 12:46 AM
Please note that in the earlier example that the apple key got asci garbled before it was done. The keys are:

"(the Apple key next to the space bar)-Option-Shift-Delete-number key, corresponding to the SCSI ID number of the disk you want."

So startup with a cd, other than holding the "C" key down, can also be done with:

"(the Apple key next to the space bar)-Option-Shift-Delete-3"

lb

ricks
03-05-2002, 01:48 AM
Hey LB,

That is way cool. Thanks for the tip! That does sound like it can only access the internal scsi bus zero unless you can hold down a key to designate the bus number also? I look forward to hearing how it works for you.

BTW, the Apple key is usually refered to as 'Command", saves figuring out how to display it.

You'll need a third party driver to run an unsupported Burner. Speed Tools or my favorite, FWB CDToolkit. Make sure that the burner you get comes with a OEM copy of Toast for Macs also because burning software is different than CD driver software.

You might check the database at xlr8yourmac.com to see if your particular model of choice is a good prospect for use on your mac. That's the safest way if you don't get something like the Plextor guaranteed by the seller.

Rick



[This message has been edited by ricks (edited 05 March 2002).]

unclemac
03-05-2002, 06:43 PM
Wow, thanks for all the great info. I need to ad an ATA card to BW 350 (Rev 1 that loves to corrupt Maxtor drives), and this answers what I was going to ask - and a whole lot more!

One question though, and I hope it was not already addressed. Do these cards (Acard variants) have flash updates? Or to ask another way, is there any reason to select one card over another, if I am most concerned about future compatabilty with OS X as it matures?

What if, say, I buy the Siig ATA 100/133 card, and they no longer support Macs next year. . . can I use a Sonnet or Acard flash update when OS 10.6 appears with new hardware requirements?

Do I just worry too much?!

TIA!

[This message has been edited by newbie (edited 05 March 2002).]

ricks
03-05-2002, 11:59 PM
There are no dumb questions except those that don't get asked, and that includes 'do I worry too much'!

I have purchased ATA133 Hardware RAID cards from both Acard and Siig. They are of course the same card. They both will take the 'flash upgrade' from Acard.

I would guess that most 'current' technology will stay OSX compatible as long as the company that makes them stays in the market. Acard and Siig are selling a bucket full of those RAID cards so they ought to be good.

I am very impressed with the performance of the hardware raid for it's cost. It literally doubles the I/O over a single drive in most applications. I would not put a ATA Hardware RAID card in a older than Beige G3 computer though, it appears there are no gains over just a single drive in vintage macs.

Hope that helps,

Rick

unclemac
03-06-2002, 12:02 PM
Geeze, the amount of knowledge and experience that flows through these forums always impresses me.

Thanks for answering all of my/our questions. You guys are the best!

I have one more, but I will move to the appropriate area.