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Macdaddi2u
05-19-2001, 06:25 PM
hey guys, Sorry I am of the "unwashed" I bow to your bodacious guruness http://macgurus.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif Ok, heres the deal, I am trying to learn about this stuff. I have an 8500/500 powerlogix G3, 320mb RAM, OS 9. everything else is stock. It was suggested I try a Miles 2 and a Cheetah. Can I Raid the Cheetah and my stock 2GB HD? or would the original 2 GB HD slow things down? I want to be able to use the 2 GB HD if it wont be shooting myself in the foot speed wise. According to the instructions for the G3/500 I should be able to run L2 at 250mhz, but if I go over 200mhz I get freezes. Will the Miles 2 cure this? I have a world of questions, but for now I will hope for some help with these, Thanks Rob

kaye
05-19-2001, 10:43 PM
Miles2 will not cure your processor problem and you need to get that fixed before Miles2. Possibly slow RAM or 4k refresh RAM? Or something wrong with the G3 card? RAIDing two dissimilar drives is not a good idea. It is highly recommended to RAID two drives such - same manufacturer, exact same model number, and even firmware number of the drive. The last recommendation, firmware number, I have RAIDed dissimilar firmware numbers with no dire consequences and no perceivable speed loss, but the rest should be the same. You can RAID almost any two drives, but how long it would last without problems is a guess. I would not RAID the Cheetah and your 2GB drive. The result would be as above and it would be slower than the Cheetah by itself. k

Macdaddi2u
05-19-2001, 10:58 PM
Kaye, how would I check my refresh rate? how do I check if something is wrong with the card? thanks Rob

M.Brane
05-19-2001, 11:23 PM
Rob: I'm just curious about your stock HD in your 8500. Mine had a 1g IBM 5400rpm originally which I replaced w/a 7200rpm MicropolisAV. It made a noticeable differance. Mine is the AV model i.e. RCA & S-video in & out.

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Too bad ignorance isn't painful.

Macdaddi2u
05-20-2001, 12:46 AM
M.Brane, to be honest with you I only know what is in there right now, not what came with it, I have owned the machine about 6 months. The HD is a Quantum I thought I saw something that said it ran at 5200 or 5400rpms. It is a 2GB HD, and mine also came with the rca and s video in/out. And your last point........... ignorance is very painful, I can personally attest to it. But pain, my friend is an excellent motivator

Macdaddi2u
05-20-2001, 01:07 AM
I am highly suspicious of the hard drive, since it wont allow me to do certain things like run conflict catcher, so I am disposed to replacing it. I have spent hours reading other parts of this site, my impression is get the miles 2, with a fast HD (10K Cheetah) and go from there. Much of what I ask about ie. Raid is just because I am curious and want to know the options before making a decision. You cant play to win if you dont know the rules. Back to the RAM, I dont know fast from slow, but what I have in slots 1a, 1b are 32mb sticks that came with it, and in slots 2a,2b are 128mb sticks I put in. Is a 4K refresh rate something I can get around or is it something I must live with in this machine? I feel bad that I dont know more about this than I do, but at least I am trying to learn.

M.Brane
05-20-2001, 01:34 AM
I would wager then that it's the stock drive, as my 7100 also had a Quantum. It was transferred to my Quadra950, but developed bad blocks. Probably got bounced too hard during shipping. http://macgurus.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

I see you've posted while I'm typing(hunting & pecking would be more accurate). I doubt your drive would prevent you from running any app. I would suspect a software problem on that issue. Also it is VERY important w/processor upgrade to have good RAM that is of the same speed i.e. all 70ns or 60ns- no mixed sticks. Gurus can direct you to the proper utilities to test it. Takes a while though- it's an overnighter.

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Too bad ignorance isn't painful.

M.Brane
05-20-2001, 01:55 AM
I just reread your post. I know what a pain it is to get to the RAM, but maybe you could try pulling your 32m sticks. Put the 128's in A4 & B4. That is assuming the 128's you added are matching. 256m ain't bad. http://macgurus.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

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Too bad ignorance isn't painful.

magician
05-20-2001, 03:43 AM
you will want to swap out the daughtercard, I guess. If you can run your backside cache at 200MHz but not at 250MHz, that suggests to me that PowerLogix could be substituting slower, inferior cache chips and then overclocking them. A lot of the time, they actually get away with it. Not always. This could be one of those cases where they actually get caught.

that said, it could be one or more pieces of memory, too. Considering that you can run at 200MHz, however....that reeks of the first possibility to me.

one interesting exercise.....if it works, might be to try XLR8's software rather than PowerLogix's. See if you get different results on your backside cache. If not, that helps confirm a hardware problem on the card.

Pulling the card and posting a high-res scan of the cache chips will help us confirm for you whether PowerLogix is using good fast parts or --shudder-- something else.

Macdaddi2u
05-20-2001, 04:53 AM
Ok, other things in life I have had to trouble shoot, I found that it is best to make one small change at a time. What would you suggest I try first? My uneducated guess would be pull the 128 sticks out, leaving in the pair of 32's and try setting the L2 back at 250. What do you think?
You mention trying XLR8's software, can I download that and try it?
Pulling the card and posting a high res scan went straight over my head, I haven't a clue what that means

MacMikester
05-20-2001, 12:44 PM
Hey Md2u,

Your troubleshooting philosophy is right on. The reason your problem may lie with the CPU upgrade card itself is that the backside cache bus is isolated from the other memory and I/O busses, so problems there shouldn't routinely affect your Cache memory speed. You should be able to run at a ratio of 1:2 or better unless, as Mag suggests, PowerLogix is overclocking inferior cache memory chips on that board to mate with a 500 MHz CPU. The 'high-res scan' he's referring to means somehow reading the tiny individual part numbers on the cache RAM chips and letting him know what that number is. You should also look at your main memory module chips for a number that ends in -6,-06,-60 or -7,-07,-70 to determine if you have 60ns RAM or 70ns RAM. The one factor that may affect the cache memory speed is software, since the settings are controlled by software. So, it is worth trying the best software out there, the XLR8 MACh Speed control panel and extension, which will work with any other manufacturer's G3/G4 CPU upgrade. You can download it from the XLR8 site free.

Best placement of main memory modules in the 8500: Largest (and/or fastest) matched modules in A4/B4, next in A3/B3,etc. The memory controller looks at the A4/B4 slots first. You can run a mix of 70ns and 60ns, but put the 60ns upfront, and keeping matching modules interleaved is best.

Regards

Macdaddi2u
05-20-2001, 02:23 PM
MacMikester, I appreciate you explaining things to me, I guess a look at the G3 card is now in order. Arggh! Let the testes begin!! *testing hehe. Ok this is serious and I will quit bein goofy. Gonna break out the big magnifing glass and take a look at Powerlogix. I wish I had found out about this site before last friday, I might have saved myself some grief.Thanks Rob

Macdaddi2u
05-20-2001, 11:56 PM
Things in life are how you perceive them, having said that my 8500 has the mother board out right now and I am on a centis 650....My 8500 is blisteringly fast!!!!!hehehe. Down to business, I have pulled the daughter card out and examined it carefully with a guru sized magnifying glass. I have copied down everything that even looked like it might be a number. I pulled and did the same with the memory sticks. With all these numbers I still dont know what I am looking at, but I have numbers. Whats next?

Macdaddi2u
05-21-2001, 12:12 AM
M.Brane, I was just looking at the RAM slots. 4A is the same length as the rest but it is not as tall, not the same color as any of the rest of the RAM slots and does not have the two protrusions that keep you from putting the sticks in the wrong way. Are you sure A4 and B4 are the right places to be putting the RAM sticks in?

Macdaddi2u
05-21-2001, 01:43 AM
On my 3rd pack of smokes today, and listening to gimme shelter.....couldnt stand another minute in front of the Centris 650, Whew my 8500 got fast in a hurry!!!!I put it back together again and here I am. Oh got a tip, when grounding yourself to the plugged in machine to handle static sensative items, dont use a wire with large alligator clips attached to each end and clip one to the machine and one to your body, I still have teeth marks on my butt.
I hate to do this but I am going to have to list a bunch of numbers and hope you can make sense of them, sorry.
memory/RAM/32mb
Germany A 104
9536 TTT
HM5 116400A56
74FCT
162244ATPV
L 9534 T
94V-0
2001574A
9533
KTA-604/32
REV.A2
The above came with the 8500 when I bought it a few months back

memory/RAM/128mb
SEC Korea
KM 44V16004BK-6
UW
Sdt 74FCT
163244CPA
LZ9819M

Powerlogix G3/500 1mb L2
Samsung 034
K7A403600M QC 22
TVAF03GC Korea
---------------------------
PI5C
16861B
9931XJC
___________________________
992
47
16E
___________________________
R143HB60
___________________________
3899
14_3V JED
___________________________
FZ34NS
1YR9521 (the Y is actually a symbol I dont have Y with line thru middle top covered and point sticking up)
46 22 25

magician
05-21-2001, 04:18 AM
you can download the XLR8 software from their website or our FTP site.

i see no point messing around with this stuff. Just swap out your memory, and if that doesn't fix it, swap out the daughtercard.

Macdaddi2u
05-21-2001, 05:16 AM
Without trying to sound too stupid, there are quite a few XlR8 downloads in the FTP section, could you be more specific please, thank you for your indulgence. Rob

Macdaddi2u
05-21-2001, 05:32 AM
As far as the memory goes, do you mean go buy some new sticks or pull out the 32's and just run the 128's? The 128's are supposed to be matched and 60ns. Also If I just run one pair of RAM sticks, am I correct putting them in slots A1,B1?

Macdaddi2u
05-21-2001, 12:34 PM
I already have some problems running,just trying to eleminate some, but yes trying to make this go faster is one of the issues. If the switch setting file is what he meant, I did happen to get it. I am reluctant to download too much more as I have already dumped files just to have 103mb left on my HD. I will be pulling out the 32 in a few minutes. my current settings are as follows:
1.on
2.on
3.off
4.on
5.off
6.off
7.on
8.off
failing that I will send the daughter card back and try something else

MacMikester
05-21-2001, 07:54 PM
Hey Md2u,

Magician will have to advise on the chip numbers from the PowerLogix Board. Your 128MB sticks are 60ns, good. They go in slots A4 and B4. What about the 32 MB sticks?

I told you what to download in my last post: the XLR8 MACh Speed control panel. The speed setting chart is for XLR8 boards and has nothing to do with your PowerLogix board.

If you can't get 250 MHz or better with the cache using the XLR8 software, return the card.

Luck

Macdaddi2u
05-21-2001, 09:00 PM
Got something wierd, A4 slot on motherboard is different than the others. (it is A4 not the short cache slot)..... all my other RAM slots are white,A4 is brown, also it is not as tall as the rest, and doesnt have the two places that go in the 2 slots in the chips so you cant put them in backwards, is it supposed to be like that? Should I use it anyway?.......Next, Whew, spent ALL day trying to deal with MacMall. they dont want to let me return the Powerlogix card. I was so bent I was ready to burn the thing and be done with it, but something told me to try asking the Gurus. Do the Gurus come through? Oh yes they do!!! I emailed Gurus customer support, and they told me just how to deal with those nasty vendors. Where should I post that information, it was suggested to me that I do post it, and I think it would surely help other poor souls who found themselves in the same position I got myself into. My hat is off to you again. You Guys are the best!!! XLR8 here we come

Macdaddi2u
05-21-2001, 09:31 PM
XLR8 speed control panel is in place and running, actually slightly noticeably better than powerlogix http://www.macgurus.com/ubb/crossbones.gif , however I guess its default setting was 250mhz for installation, cause it crashed before the booting was complete. Rebooted with extensions off and changed to (199.9) and is working like I said slightly noticeably better than....I am ready to forget their name

MacMikester
05-21-2001, 10:12 PM
Md2u,

Take a closer look at your RAM slots. You'll see that the brown slot you are calling 4A or A4 is not a RAM slot. It is the the L2 cache module slot. You will find that A4 is in fact on the B side of that slot and will be one of the (8) white slots.

Consensus advice: return the CPU card as it is not performing as it should. Replace it with an XLR8 board if you can.

Regards

Macdaddi2u
05-22-2001, 12:57 AM
The powerlogix G3 is in the box, Fedexing it out tomarrow morning whether they like it or not. Put the 604 back in, did hit the reset button on motherboard, did put only the 128's is A4,B4. Can only boot up with extensions off, message says "The finder could not start up because a system library could not be found..... DragLib - Set DragImage. Running the OS 9 that came with the machine but it didnt come with a CD, any ideas? Will have an XlR8 pretty soon but that isnt gonna do much for the present situation is it? Think I have had better days than this one.

Macdaddi2u
05-22-2001, 05:11 PM
Well, guess I am at a standstill, Sent powerlogix back. Waiting for new XLR8 card, and OS 9.1 to show up, this is happy :rollseyes: I am sure things will be looking up by next week. Looking for a bright spot. Not pointing any fingers at Gurus, they have been great!!!

MacMikester
05-22-2001, 05:25 PM
I'm dealing with OWC on another matter. It is a freakin' jungle out there. Either you roar like a lion or you get eaten. The MacGurus are peerless. I am not affiliated in any way other than the simple facyt that I enjoy my time on this board and have nothing but good things to say about their customer support and the guys themselves. Some people learn the hard way and some are lucky enough to stumble across MacGurus early in their Mac experience. I learned the hard way. http://macgurus.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

magician
05-23-2001, 12:15 AM
I would start a new thread for the MacMall opus....it is important for others to know when vendors are behaving poorly. The only way to make companies act right, IMO, is to put them out of business, or embarrass the shit out of them (sorry for the profanity--as anyone will tell you, I am one profane SOB, particularly when it comes to vendors pushing people around).

Macdaddi2u
05-23-2001, 03:10 AM
I have posted an admittedly long winded thread in new users section, titled Unscruplous Vendors. It looks long but shouldnt take more than a minute or two to read. I hope I have not done anything inappropriate in writing the new thread or in placing it. I also hope reading it helps prevent this from happening to anyone else. My father used to tell me a wise man learns from other peoples mistakes, the rest of us learn the hard way.

[This message has been edited by Macdaddi2u (edited 23 May 2001).]

magician
05-23-2001, 06:44 PM
i think it will be helpful to all of us, and I thank you for posting it with us here.

Macdaddi2u
05-25-2001, 04:25 PM
Miracles of miracles, my XLR8 G3/500 arrived today from good ole Gurus, and you will never believe it, after loading the software and following the instructions, I put the card in, fired her up and got a message that the default setting for the backside cache was 199.9 but having read the instructions(several times) I changed the setting to 249.9 as they suggested. this was less than 15 minutes ago, I will wait and see if it locks up, but so far, she's got some butt now! http://www.macgurus.com/ubb/kickass.gif Thanks guys, you are the best!!!!!

magician
05-25-2001, 09:57 PM
Macdad, you should be fine at 250MHz on the backside.

sounds like you are running the 1.4.3 version of the MAChSpeed control...you may want to download the 2.02 version from our FTP site or from XLR8's website directly. It will automatically set your board to run at 2:1, 250MHz, without any intervention on your part.

http://macgurus.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Macdaddi2u
05-25-2001, 11:29 PM
I went to the FTP site and downloaded 2.2 and replaced the original 1.4.3 , I was expecting to find a second file in the control panels when I opened it, but there was only one file, guess the new one just automatically replaced the old one. Kool! I can get real used to this XLR8 equipment. Almost makes me want a G3 just to see how the dual 450's work,and lord help us when the dual 500's when they come out. Thats way out my league though and I am very very pleased with the results I am getting with my single G3/500. What can I say.....Thanks again Rob

Macdaddi2u
05-25-2001, 11:37 PM
Oh and by the way, when I tried to return the Powerlogix G3/500 to MacMall they forwarded me to their techs, who said there was no way I could run the L2 at 250 2:1. Makes me feel real good to know you were right and they were......................x@######%%%&&&&&& wrong.

MacMikester
05-26-2001, 12:15 AM
The 'Gurus rule. They don't sell PowerLogix anymore because PowerLogix proved themselves unworthy. I love that philosophy. Thanx for letting me hang here with you guys.

Macdaddi2u
05-26-2001, 12:27 AM
Hell Yeah!!!!!'Gurus Rule!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! http://www.macgurus.com/ubb/kickass.gif

[This message has been edited by Macdaddi2u (edited 26 May 2001).]

magician
05-26-2001, 05:52 PM
http://macgurus.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif