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sdavisj
05-14-2001, 11:16 AM
I am ready to buy but want to check that I have everything I need.
1-2x Cheetah (10,000 rpms), ATTO Ultra 3 Dual Channel card.

Do cable come with the card? If not what exactly do I need for internal and external. I havent decided yet onwhich way to go.

kaye
05-14-2001, 12:24 PM
What machine will you be installing this into? The ATTO UL3D does not come with cables. You will need Granite and we can get into the details of that as well as an external enclosure. If you are going to create a RAID with two Cheetahs (your designation 1-2x Cheetah is confusing me), you need RAID software as well. Let's start with the machine and how many Cheetahs. k

sdavisj
05-14-2001, 01:58 PM
G4 450Mhz DP (sawtooth, I believe) Yes I want to RAID the two cheetahs (sorry about the confusion). I want to go external because of portability. DO I need the dual channel card? How about a Miles 2. Granted I dont want to get great drives and hamper them with a slow card or cables.

kaye
05-14-2001, 05:23 PM
The ATTO UL3D is a better card than the Miles2 for your G4-450DP. Miles2 shines best in a vintage Mac.

So UL3D plus Granite external cables (one for each channel) to a RAID box with Granite internal cables and terminator. Let me work up some possibilities there.

Now which Cheetahs? The 10k RPM or the 15k RPM, the X15? If the 10k, which model number? Go here http://www.macgurus.com/shoppingcart/showrampage.cgi?mg_hdseagates.html

BTW, there is nothing like the X15's, but I have to warn you, the UL3D and X15's with external Granite cabling and RAID box and its internal Granite cabling and terminator and SoftRAID, we are talking serious bucks.

The external RAID box, want to build it yourself or want the Gurus to build it for you? And do you want a RAID box for just two drives or some extra bays for more expansion? Burly external RAID boxes come with 2-bay, 4-bay, or 8-bays. Maybe a 4-bay for future expansion?

You're thinking when will he stop asking questions. Sorry but it gets complicated. And fire away if something is unclear as we proceed. Anyone else want to chime in? k

PENDRAGON18
05-14-2001, 07:32 PM
The MilesU2W is definately a cost effective way to go. With two stripped x10 (not 2x http://macgurus.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif ) Cheetahs you will probably still be limited by the card for sustained write throughput (about 40MB/s), but your sustained reads will be about 80MB/s http://macgurus.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif the 10K Cheetahs are nice if you
1) Want a big drive (from 18GB to 72GB)
2) Dont want to spend as much
3) Dont have as fast a SCSI card to take full advantage

The MilesU2W comes with SoftRAID ($150!) and twisted pair 4plug cable+term ($150) - so you are really getting about $450 worth of stuff for $200! http://www.macgurus.com/ubb/cool.gif

The ATTO Dual Channel U160 has a theoretical bandwidth of 320MB/s sustained... and I think the new PC133Sawtooth can get fairly close to this (200MB/s +?) So it will take plenty of x15s to max it out (4 or 6?). This card will handle 30 drives, but the MilesU2W will handle 15. I've had up to 11 connected without issue - but you NEED Twisted pair. I used the stock Miles TWISTED PAIR + GRANITE 8 plug TWISTED PAIR.

You can always upgrade the SCSI card later, if you wish. The 15K (x15) Cheetahs are the best, fastest, most reliable HDs around. Of course you pay for that. People here say one x15 ~ two or three 'x10' Cheetahs in speed. Unfortunately (or maybe fortunate for my wallet?) they only come in 18GB sizes.

I would think two or three 10K 36GB (or smaller) Cheetahs would work nicely in a G4/Sawtooth. It can handle 4 drives - I would probably remove the stock IDE/ATA drive or put one of the Cheetahs above the DVD - so you dont have to double stack the drives. My 36GB 10K Cheetah is noticably warmer than the 4GB. The 36GB is newer but it does use more power - and thus it will generate more heat.

You should stay aways from UW drives and cards. UW is out of date and has more issues with cabling (4.5' with normal flat ribbon cable) and of course its slower (40MB/s). If you get one x15 (or x10) and a single channel ATTO + cable + term you really wont need SoftRAID. For a single drive the 36GB is a nice size, but then I'm not sure what you are doing with it.... I have about 15GB of MP3s, and counting. I also rip at > 192kbps (set to VBR)... and those QT movies take some space. MPEG2 movies (DVD's) take about 8GB each http://www.macgurus.com/ubb/eek.gif - I guess thats why 60GB IDE/ATA drives are so popular?-)

Louie
05-15-2001, 12:20 AM
You must have one single volume. The Sawtooth won't boot from RAID 0 now.

magician
05-15-2001, 06:03 AM
SD, follow K. He and Louie will keep it short, sweet and simple.

at this point, we need to know:

1. total capacity? (Which drives, and how many?)

2. which enclosure? (dictated by above, and expansion potential)

then we can build a quote for you. We know which host (ATTO), since we know what machine you are using. We know you want to go external. So, we know what cables to use. All we need to know is total capacity, and how much storage you want now, and in the future. Then we're ready to quote, and proceed.

http://macgurus.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

sdavisj
05-15-2001, 11:44 AM
I was looking at the 36.7G Cheetah 10,000 rpms. #st336705lw. I need +/- 72G of storage right now, the reason I was thinking of going with two 36G was to set them up as a raid to increase speed. Is this a good idea? or would one 73.4G 10,000rpm be better? Sorry, but after rereading the gurus info on internal vs. external I think portability no longer matters as much. I want to mount internal. I have one 40G Mator ATA drive in my machine now along with a zip drive, and a DVD ROM drive. I dont understand that about booting. Wont my machine boot off of the ATA and reference the Cheetah? Anyway, the help is fantastic. Much appreciated.

sdavisj
05-15-2001, 11:47 AM
Also, down the road I will add more drives externally. Can you run an internal Cheetah and external Cheetahs off of the same card?

MacMikester
05-15-2001, 11:03 PM
Yes, sd, you can. The Miles2 can host up to 15 devices, any combination of internal and external. The ATTO dual channel can host that number on each channel.

Regards

kaye
05-16-2001, 12:26 AM
OK, you want to go internal. Yes you can boot off the ATA and the Cheetah or Cheetahs will mount for your use. I have never laid eyes on the innards of the G4 450Mhz DP. So I can't tell you if you have enough bays to install two 10k 36GB Cheetahs. Someone else will have to say.

Your decisions:
1. ATTO UL3D or Miles2. The ATTO card will be faster and will have the versatility of dual channel in your machine for later additions but comes with no cables and no SoftRAID. The Miles2 will be slower in your machine but comes as a kit with SoftRAID, twisted-pair LVD internal cable, and LVD terminator. The ATTO card will need Granite cables and terminator and SoftRAID, all separately purchased. I still like the UL3D for your machine, but this means much greater expense with Granite stuff and SoftRAID.

2. One huge Cheetah or two nearly huge Cheetahs and stripe RAID (RAID 0) them. I like to stripe RAID, and have not have a RAID failure, but the single drive at this point would be a more conservative approach though many who make a living off of their computers RAID them. Backing up is important in either case.

What do you think? k

[This message has been edited by kaye (edited 16 May 2001).]

PENDRAGON18
05-16-2001, 07:38 AM
Yes you can boot off the ATA and the Cheetah or Cheetahs will mount for your use.
For the NewWorld Macs (G4/Sawtooth) you can not boot off a Striped RAID (0). In theory you could boot off a mirrored RAID (1), but I've heard there can be problems with this. Of course a Striped RAID setup would not prevent you from booting off any internal ATA/IDE drive or a single SCSI drive.

I have never laid eyes on the innards of the G4 450Mhz DP. So I can't tell you if you have enough bays to install two 10k 36GB Cheetahs. Someone else will have to say.
The G4/Sawtooth has the same bays as the G3/Yosemite. You can install up to 4 drives along the bottom bays. The back bay is double stacked - so you probably dont want to do that with a Cheetah. So 2 10K Cheetahs + Stock ATA/IDE drive should be fine. I like running RAID setups too, you get much more flexibility. You can run:
2 separate drives - to allow booting and flexibility
1 large striped RAID (0) volume - for speed & size
1 Mirrored RAID (1) volume - for redundancy & speed

When you RAID drives it is a good idea to do this with MATCHED drives. Getting them at the same time can ensure the drives are matched.

Dick Brillo
05-16-2001, 08:55 AM
Hi guys,

Nice thread.

I have a stupid question.

http://macgurus.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

If one bought say a Miles2 and two (2) Cheetahs, can you create both a RAID (0) AND a RAID (1)?

Thanks (still trying to learn this stuff),
Jesse

sdavisj
05-16-2001, 11:01 AM
Thanks for the info. I am going with the Miles2. I would love to go with the ATTO, but the starter on my car just went and took my money for the ATTO with it. One final question. What mounting hardare is neccesarry?

kaye
05-16-2001, 04:05 PM
We are getting close. Your purchases will cover everything except what you need to mount those drives in the bays that P18 mentions. Again, I don't know your box, so we need a comment about whether you need a sled/adapters for those bottome bays or whether you just need four screws to install each drive, eight screws total.

Someone?

You need the screws anyway, so ask for them in the comments box of your order, hard drive mounting screws - need 8. k

drallen
05-16-2001, 09:38 PM
Jesse,

Yes you can RAID 0 and RAID 1 off dual Cheetahs and a single Miles U2W. I work on the RAID 0 and backup to the RAID 1, just in case...

In my PowerTowerPro you can even boot off the RAID 0 (or even the RAID 1).

Mark

drallen
05-16-2001, 11:31 PM
Pendy18,

I am lost, and I get mixed up. Is my 733 G4 a Sawtooth? or a Yosimite (sp?)? My G4 733 can boot off a Mirrored RAID...

I'm using an Adaptec dual channel card. In the G4, I cannot speak for the Miles.

I am using a FOUR disk internal RAID 0 in my G4. Using a TWO disk (within the four disks) Mirrored partition. Then I use one partition for a boot partition and the other partition for backup storage.

It rocks. The most stable system I have owned...

For you FMP fans... The G4 733 archives my office data in a little more than 30 minutes. With a striped, dual Miles U2W, bus duplexed, two X15s in a G3 500 in my PTP, it took almost 2 hours...

Mark

[This message has been edited by magician (edited 17 May 2001).]

magician
05-17-2001, 01:52 AM
all he needs is four screws per drive. That's it.

Dick Brillo
05-17-2001, 03:15 PM
Thanks drallen!

http://macgurus.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Your systems sounds awesome!

http://macgurus.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

I'm jealous!